Rapture: Pre-trib? Mid-trib? Pre-wrath? Post-trib?

Covenanter;You said;

I find this statement above to be anti American.

Sympathetic to the Palestinians are you?. Funny I've never heard of any Jew's committing acts of terrorism on Palestinians. By the way it was Jews who invented nuclear weapons. It was Jews that won the 6 day war and they never used nuclear weapons.
MB

 

And your refusal,against any good sense or reason, to see the very clear and biblical difference between Israel and the church is what drives your antisemetism.

 

No, TC - read my post again.
We all know historic premil has been around since the time of the EFCs. Questions about the so-called "rapture" & its timing with respect to wrath & a future tribulation have not.

Barnabas (around the end of the first century) has an interesting slant on the millennium:

Barnabas 15:1
Moreover concerning the Sabbath likewise it is written in the Ten Words, in which He spake to Moses face to face on Mount Sinai; And ye shall hallow the Sabbath of the Lord with pure hands and with a pure heart.
2
And in another place He saith; If my sons observe the Sabbath then I will bestow My mercy upon them.
3
Of the Sabbath He speaketh in the beginning of the creation; And God made the works of His hands in six days, and He ended on the seventh day, and rested on it, and He hallowed it.
4
Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.
5
And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.
6
Yea and furthermore He saith; Thou shalt hallow it with pure hands and with a pure heart. If therefore a man is able now to hallow the day which God hallowed, though he be pure in heart, we have gone utterly astray.
7
But if after all then and not till then shall we truly rest and
hallow it, when we shall ourselves be able to do so after being
justified and receiving the promise, when iniquity is no more and all things have been made new by the Lord, we shall be able to hallow it then, because we ourselves shall have been hallowed first.
8
Finally He saith to them; Your new moons and your Sabbaths I cannot away with. Ye see what is His meaning ; it is not your present Sabbaths that are acceptable [unto Me], but the Sabbath which I have made, in the which, when I have set all things at rest, I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world.
9
Wherefore also we keep the eighth day for rejoicing, in the which also Jesus rose from the dead, and having been manifested ascended into the heavens.​

The whole letter is interesting to read - 21 short chapters. Plenty of OT quotes but few from the Apostolic writings. Perhaps 15:4 is an allusion to 2 Peter 3:8.

It is of course likely that Peter was familiar with Revelation, both being written before the destruction, & speculation about a millennium was already beginning. Jewish fables that Paul refers to? Peter makes it very clear that the indefinite "thousand years" was the time before the day of the Lord.

Peter was, of course, unfamiliar with the ambiguous letter of Irenaeus that is used to "prove" a post AD 70 date for Revelation. It looks as if Peter & John were familiar with each other's writings; they were inspired by the same Holy Spirit. In both books we see, after the "millennium" the judgment & the new heaven & new earth.

It is also likely that, just as OT prophecy often has a double fulfilment of the return from Babylon & the Messianic age, so Peter was referring to the "promised coming" for the AD 70 destruction including the elements of the old covenant worship & the final coming for resurrection & judgment.

 

I should hope they were post trib - as our Lord warned:

33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”​

And Paul taught the Thessalonians: 2 Thessalonians 1:3-10 though that posttrib coming for the suffering believers will be pretrib for the wicked - the tribulation of Hell.

 

Like TC, I have read your post carefully. Since you state the elements of the Old Covenant worship were destroyed in AD 70, why did you spend half of your post on the Sabbath? Why are you fixated on the Sabbath? Christians can worship on any day of the week. I guess you don't believe that Paul was inspired to write about this.

I don't think you really have a grasp on New Testament history. Modern scholars do not rely in any way on Irenaeus. And, the generally accepted date for Revelation is before John's death on the Island of Patmos.

Why do you put the Millennium in quotes? Do you deny the Thousand Years in Revelation? I agree that afterward, there is a judgment and a new heaven and a new earth.

The "promised coming" is the final coming. Premils know this is before the Millennium.

 

How about acts of terrorism against American?

USS Liberty

And the use of phosphorus bombs on Gaza hospitals & schools?

Gaza bombed by Israel.

 

I quoted Barnabas as , AFAIK, he is the earliest one to write about the "millennium." He's NOT the Scriptural Barnabas, nor is he writing Scripture, he's an early ECF & his teaching should be tested by Scripture.

I'm not fixated on the Sabbath - I'll requote the relevant verses from Barnabas:

4 Give heed, children, what this meaneth; He ended in six days. He meaneth this, that in six thousand years the Lord shall bring all things to an end; for the day with Him signifyeth a thousand years;
and this He himself beareth me witness, saying; Behold, the day of the Lord shall be as a thousand years. Therefore, children, in six days, that is in six thousand years, everything shall come to an end.
5 And He rested on the seventh day. this He meaneth; when His Son shall come, and shall abolish the time of the Lawless One, and shall judge the ungodly, and shall change the sun and the moon and the stars, then shall he truly rest on the seventh day.​

He is using the creation week as an allegory for the whole of time & using Peter's teaching in 2 Peter 3:8 to teach the idea of created things lasting 6,000 years after which the Lord returns in judgment. Then follows the millennium - a perfect Sabbath rest for 1,000 years. Is creation dates from 4004 BC, we are close to the date of the Lord's return - which of course we cannot know.

Barnabas' Sabbath millennium is followed seamlessly with the eight day - eternity.

8b ... I will make the beginning of the eighth day which is the beginning of another world.​

You will find that other ECFs took up the idea of the millennium being an intermediate "golden age" before the final NH&NE state.

You're right when you say the date for Revelation was before John's death. But perhaps I'm not a modern scholar as I believe the date for Revelation was before the AD 70 destruction.

I put "millennium" as I hold the amil position, that the thousand years is the present Gospel age, after which comes the return of Christ for resurrection & judgment & the NH&NE. No future "millennium."

2 Peter 3 has instructive teaching on the "millennium" & it's duration & what follows.

 

There is a vast difference between Israel & the Church, or they are one redeemed people of God in Christ, or as organised religions both exclude the redeemed people of God - all depending on the definitions.

We can start with Paul's definition of the church:

..... Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. ​

That church that Christ loves comprises both Jews & Gentile believers. It excludes unbelievers of all religions, regardless of church/religious allegiance or profession.

Christ calls & welcomes sinners of of all religions to come to himself in repentance & faith, & these are included in his church.

Israel, as an religious entity, & as a nation essentially comprises those who claim Judaism as a God-given religion with rejection of Jesus as Messiah, Lord & Saviour. By their own definition Israel is not the church. Israel & the church of Jesus Christ are mutually exclusive. That does not, of course mean that there are no Messianic Jews or Israelis.

The Gospel still calls Israelites as it did at Pentecost:

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”​

Those who persist in rejecting the Gospel are condemned by Moses - quoted by Peter:

3:22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’​

Peter went on to say:

24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days. 25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’ 26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”​

The church was comprised Jews from its Pentecostal formation, & (reluctantly) welcomed Samaritans & Gentiles as the Gospel spread. Any attempt to distinguish between Jew & Gentile Christians was comprehensively condemns.

There is no NT teaching that God has a separate plan for Israel as distinct from the church. Rather, the church is the fulfilment of God's prophecy for Israel. Acts 3:24-26

The nation that calls itself "Israel" is of no prophetic significance. They are a nation & people who need the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as are the Muslims & many of the professing Christians who live there - pray for their peace with God through Christ & with each other.

 

Ok?​

Irrelevant to this discussion

Irrelevant to this discussion

Irrelevant to this discussion

ok?

ok?

Uh just because it is in the NT does not mean it negates God's different plan for Israel as a nation.

Says you, without any evidence thus far.

ok? You have yet to prove your claim here.

What you fail to understand, it seems, is that there are several different types of election. The angels of God are referred to as being elect (I Tim 5:21), Jesus is referred to as being elect or chosen (Luke 23:35), National Israel is referred to as being elect (Romans 9:4-5), and the church is referred to as being elect (Ephesians 1:4)

These elections are different in their purpose and scope. More specifically for this discussion is the election of National Israel. That election is not the same as the election of the church. What is currently going on with Israel is only temporary (Romans 11:25b; 11:28-29) which has a purpose in and of itself (Romans 11:26a).

Paul himself made a clear distinction between the church and Israel (I Cor 10:32)

 

Many ECF actually held to this position!

 

Raptureand Second Coming to Hisstorical premil would be same Event, and some like myself, would hold to Israel as a nation being reborn unto their Lord at that same time!

 

I'll try to clarify - double indent my points (Ian)
single indent yours (Revm)
New replies not indented

Ian:
There is no NT teaching that God has a separate plan for Israel as distinct from the church. Rather, the church is the fulfilment of God's prophecy for Israel. Acts 3:24-26​

Revm:
Uh just because it is in the NT does not mean it negates God's different plan for Israel as a nation. ​

Ian - The NT writers all take up OT prophecies & interpret them in terms of the New Covenant church. What do you see as God's plan for Israel as a nation distinct from God's plans for Israel as the redeemed people of God? See Luke 24:21 & Jesus answer in Luke 24:25-27

And do you distinguish between Israel as an ethnic nation from Israel as a believing people? Note God's words to Israel in Exodus 19:4-6 fulfilled in the church in 1 Peter 2:9-10

Ian:
The nation that calls itself "Israel" is of no prophetic significance.​

Revm:
Says you, without any evidence thus far.​

Ian - I am aware of OT prophecy regarding the restoration of Israel to the promised land by the Messiah. e.g. Isaiah 49:5 That prophecy is enlarged to include the Gentiles, & salvation to the ends of the earth. Isaiah 49:6

There are "patterns" in prophecy (types, examples) that are promptly fulfilled in the nation & glorious fulfilled in the Gospel & ultimately fulfilled in the NH&NE. e.g. Ezekiel 37 - the prophecies of the Babylonian captivity & restoration patterning the death & resurrection of Christ & the restoration of repentant sinners by the Gospel, & ultimately our perfect restoration to a better than Eden NH&NE.

Abraham hoped for a heavenly promised land far beyond the earthly promise. Hebrews 11:8-16 Even now he is enjoying that promised land. Hebrews 12:22-24

Where does Jesus promise the Jews an earthly kingdom?

Ian:
They are a nation & people who need the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as are the Muslims & many of the professing Christians who live there - pray for their peace with God through Christ & with each other.​

Revm:
ok? You have yet to prove your claim here.
​

Are you suggesting that the Israeli Jews do not need the Gospel????

Revm:
Luke 23:35), National Israel is referred to as being elect (Romans 9:4-5), and the church is referred to as being elect (Ephesians 1:4)

These elections are different in their purpose and scope. More specifically for this discussion is the election of National Israel. That election is not the same as the election of the church. What is currently going on with Israel is only temporary (Romans 11:25b; 11:28-29) which has a purpose in and of itself (Romans 11:26a).
​

Ian - The elect of Israel were saved, & are being saved by the Gospel. You need to explain why you think the election of Jew & Gentile is different.

Revm:
Paul himself made a clear distinction between the church and Israel (I Cor 10:32)​

Ian - Maybe; but he didn't say what that clear distinction was.

No, he wrote of 3 entities - the church comprising one body of Jew & Gentile believers, the redeemed people of God. Then unbelieving Jews & unbelieving Gentiles. See 1 Corinthians 10:27

 

How should we understand Ezekiel's temple prophecy
Ezekiel 40 ff.

 

Same way that we view the communion takes, as in memorial of what Jesus did on the Cross!

 

That must be wrong. Ezekiel prophesied animal sacrifices as sin offerings but Calvary FINISHED all sacrifices and opened the Way to the Father. The New Covenant temple is being built with living stones - believers.

I asked the question in the hope I would get a carefully reasoned answer. BUT I do not see in Scripture ANY possibility of intention of a rebuilt temple for Old Covenant sacrificial worship.

If the Israelis do build a temple it will be in absolute rejection of their Messiah, Jesus.

God prophesied a new temple in Ezekiel 40. A new temple was built, and served its purpose and was completely destroyed. Now we are a temple built with living stones for spiritual worship. John 4, Ephesians 2.

The literal fulfilment of Ezekiel's temple prophecy is the spiritual temple our Saviour is building with his redeemed people.

 

Its not to have sacrifices remade for sins, but to have memorials unto the lamb of God who already was/is the final sacrifice!

 

One question I would pose to you, DPT, is, "If the Church is raptured after the Tribulation...who is left to repopulate the Millennial Kingdom?"

The point being, in Revelation 20 we read of unbelievers who join ranks with Satan (now released from captivity in the bottomless pit)...


Revelation 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


...so the question arises, if we are to keep Prophecy intact, meaning we take Revelation at its Word, how can we have all believers (and this is how Paul taught the Rapture would be) glorified at the end of the Tribulation? At the end of the seven year Tribulation all unbelievers that survive through it are put to death and go into everlasting punishment (which will be Hades, at that time, not Hell, the Lake of Fire). So if all believers are raptured, which means they are also glorified, then we have no-one left to enter into the Millennial Kingdom...at all.

Secondly I would point out that the Two Witnesses are raptured at the midpoint of the Tribulation (after ministering for forty two months (three and half years)). If you look at the Greek concerning the "First Resurrection, you will see that protos (translated first, Revelation 20:5) is not limited to a meaning of "first in sequence," but can also mean "first in rank." And seeing that we have the true "First Resurrection" in the Firstborn from the Dead, Jesus Christ, then, the rapture of the Two Witnesses, then we can question imposing a meaning of sequence to protos in Revelation 20:5.

That the Early Church was taught a Pre-trib Rapture is implied by the numerous teachings themselves. Paul, for example, was yearning for the Rapture here:


2 Corinthians 5
King James Version (KJV)

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.


The "earthly house" in view is our physical body. The "eternal house not made with hands" is our resurrected body. Paul states "we" groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with out house from Heaven," or in other words, to be glorified. He then states "If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked," which refers to our physical death, meaning, our spirits departing from our physical body (see Luke 24:36-39 where the Lord clarifies that physical death is the spirit departing from the body). In v.4 Paul states that we are not earnestly desiring to be unclothed, that is, we are not simply desiring to die that we might be present with the Lord, but that we be clothed upon with immortality, or, our bodies resurrected in our glorified form.

Now, what I would suggest to you is that if Paul understood the Tribulation as preceding the Rapture, it would make little sense to earnestly desire being glorified.


God bless.