Predestination and Foreknowledge

Yes, this is part of the reason I was initially using the term "Calvinist" instead of "Reformed". "Reformed" tends to be a term used in different ways by different people and tends to be broader than "Calvinist". Still, among most evangelicals (at least most American evangelicals), the terms "Reformed theology" and "Calvinism" are often used interchangeably.

 

Yes, confessions of faith and statements of faith can serve, and often do serve, a useful function within the Body of Christ by guarding the church and its members against false teaching.

But these statements of faith must always and ever be subordinate to the Bible (being Reformed, I'm confident you agree with this). Unlike the Bible, confessions should be open to testing and there should be openness to changing them, or discarding them in favor of new ones, when and if they are found to contain errors themselves.

The people I know (quite a few) who have adopted the view of Conditional Immortality (which includes Annihilationism) have done so after long, detailed, and careful study of the Scriptures convinced them that Conditional Immortality is the correct view. Here I risk derailing this thread which I myself started, so if you want to discuss Conditional Immortality in more detail, perhaps a new thread could be started (although we had a long, detailed discussion of this, that thread was closed as threads often are after many comments).

 

My brother, what we have in common (imo) is far more important than our differences. For example, we both believe in Sola Scriptura!

I do intend to interact with your texts as well as your exegesis. There are many comments, and so I cannot promise to interact with everything in detail, but yours are (imo) among the best representing the Reformed view and I will try to get to them. I'm not sure of the time frame.

 

Are you saying you think that calling precedes foreknowledge and predestination in the order of salvation?

 

I'm working through your "brief exposition of Ephesians" and hopefully will be ready to share some thoughts soon. Thanks again for the time you have put into this.

 

Thanks for reminding us of this.

I'm aware that Calvinist theology says Foreknowledge = Predetermination (election, predestination).

I do not agree with that interpretation. Here are a couple of reasons:

Firs, notice the logical chain of events given in Romans 8:29-30:

ESV Romans 8:29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

The chain of events (gracious, glorious, wonderful events) includes:

foreknew → predestined → called → justified → glorified

No one argues that
predestined = called
or
called = justified
or
justified = glorified
These are related, but separate, gracious actions of God.

So why should we think that
foreknew = predestined

It does not fit the pattern.

A second reason I do not believe foreknew = predestined is because the words simply do not mean the same thing. To foreknow is to know something ahead of time. Even as humans we have (very limited, imperfect) foreknowledge of some events. God's foreknowledge is perfect, and I believe most likely it is also unlimited. But it is not the same as predestining. To predestine something is to ensure ahead of time that something will happen.

Now, certainly God foreknows everything that He predestines. But it does NOT logically follow that He predestines everything that He foreknows. That's just basic logic.

 

You quote Ephesians 1:3-5

Ephesians 1:3-5 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,

You then comment as follows:

I agree with everything you write here! And I praise God for these wonderful truths, as I’m sure you do.

The issue is not whether or not God chose the elect before the universe was created. The issue in this thread is whether that election was conditional or unconditional.

I would also point out that there is a third view, as I’m sure you know but some reading this thread might not know, called Corporate Election. Belief in Corporate Election can be harmonious with Conditional Election, but is not harmonious with the Reformed theology view of Unconditional Election (Some Arminians who hold to Corporate Election deny any individual election, but this is not necessary, as the two concepts can be easily harmonized). Corporate Election basically says that God chose Christ to be the source of Salvation, and whoever is “in Christ” is included. Corporate Election further posits that people are able to choose to be “in Christ” when they hear and believe the Truth, the Gospel of their salvation.

A common illustration for Corporate Election is that it works like a Gospel Ship. The Ship is Jesus. The Ship is heading for glory. You get on the ship by faith in Jesus. Everyone on the “Jesus Ship” is thus predestined for glory, their destination is glory.

I personally believe that some passages, like Ephesians 1:3-5 are at least in part referring to Corporate Election, although I also believe that individual, conditional election is also most likely true.

The reason a passage like Ephesians 1:3-5 works so well with Corporate Election is that it mentions being “in Christ” or an equivalent phrase quite often:

ESV Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, 4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, (Eph. 1:3 ESV)

Similar “in Christ” phrases continue all through Ephesians 1 and in fact are found frequently through Paul’s writings. Ephesians 1:11 is especially relevant:

NIV Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

I have some more to say about Ephesians 1 before we get to Ephesians 2, but I don’t want to put too much in one comment.