Greek Tenses and OSAS

Referring to 1jim, September 18, 2005 06:48 PM.

I think there's a BIG mutual misunderstanding here!
I believe OSAS! I really can't figure what you believe except that to me it looks very confused!

My main point IN THIS CASE of Hebrews 6, is that the "principles" are Christian fundamentals; that the "falling" mentioned is what happens to any and every saved Christian despite his being saved everlastingly, that he would sin again and again until he dies; that the writer departs from a certain pre-supposition, namely, that it is "impossible" a 'first-principle' saved Christian could repeat his being 'first-principle' saved because that WOULD imply - ONLY supposing - he would crucifiy and deny Christ anew; that the writer is convinced concerning the 'first-principle saved Christian believer that that never will be the case, but that he will bear fruit under the constant supply of the rains from heaven - the constant and unrepentable grace of the Holy Spirit.

 

AMEN!

It is ironic. One of the passages most used by the opponents of OSAS, when scientifically inspected, declares the born of God OSAS! With this crushing information you would expect a person to re-evaluate all the passages that they have been "thinking" declares that some children of God will go to hell.

God Bless!

 

Hi Gerhard Ebersoehn,


Gerhard Ebersoehn:

I believe OSAS! I really can't figure what you believe except that to me it looks very confused!


Jim:

Obviously, I don’t believe that the Bible teaches OSAS no matter what. One must believe, and one must continue to believe to the end; that’s what the Bible teaches. It seems ludicrous to me that anyone would reach any other conclusion. Then again, it seems ludicrous to me that anyone could read the Bible with an objective eye and reach the conclusion that it teaches a pre-Tribulation Rapture. So I don’t believe that the Bible teaches OSAS no matter what, and I don’t believe that it teaches a pre-Tribulation Rapture. I believe that it plainly and explicitly teaches that a single resurrection of the saints (the Rapture) will occur at a single, post-Tribulation return of Christ from heaven. I believe that this single future coming of the Lord will be experienced two different ways, depending on one’s relationship with the Lord; believers will experience it as salvation (the Rapture), whereas unbelievers will experience it as a thief (destruction). But not all unbelievers will be destroyed, and those who survive will be ruled with a rod of iron (the Millennium). I believe that one is a believer as long as one believes in Christ, in which case one has eternal life, and that one who does not believe in Christ is an unbeliever, in which case one does not have eternal life, regardless of whether or not one ever believed in Him before. So one must believe in Him to the end. As Paul says in Colossians 1:22-23 (ASV), Christ will “present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him (at the resurrection): if (ei) so be that ye continue (indicative verb) in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and [are] not moved away from the hope of the gospel.” This is a first-class conditional sentence (“ei” [if] with an indicative verb in the protasis [the “if” clause]). In Galatians 5:18, Paul says, “But if (ei) you are led (indicative verb) by the Spirit, you are not under the law.” Both passages express a truth which may very well be assumed to be true of the people to whom it is written; however, the condition is nonetheless valid in each instance; one must be led by the Spirit to no longer be under the law, and one must continue in the faith and not be moved away from the hope of the Gospel to be presented holy and without blemish at the resurrection. Not continuing in the faith and moving away from the hope of the Gospel is something that can and does happen. I’ve seen it happen. I’m not talking about falling into sin. I’m talking about falling away from the Faith, whereby one no longer believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. Those who fall away from the Faith and no longer believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, are unbelievers, and as such, they do not have eternal life, even though they used to have eternal life when they used to believe in Him. The only difference between an unbeliever who never before believed in Him and an unbeliever who used to believe in Him is that the unbeliever who used to believe in Him is less likely to believe in Him (again) than the unbeliever who never before believed in Him is likely to believe in Him (for the first time). As the author of Hebrews 6:4-6 says, “It is impossible to renew to repentance” those unbelievers who used to believe in Him, because despite having once experienced God’s grace, they came to regard Him as a false prophet, thus “crucifying [Him] to themselves [as a false prophet] and disgracing Him [as if He were a false prophet].” Other than that, they’re the same; neither unbeliever has eternal life.


Gerhard Ebersoehn:

My main point IN THIS CASE of Hebrews 6, is that the "principles" are Christian fundamentals; that the "falling" mentioned is what happens to any and every saved Christian despite his being saved everlastingly, that he would sin again and again until he dies; that the writer departs from a certain pre-supposition, namely, that it is "impossible" a 'first-principle' saved Christian could repeat his being 'first-principle' saved because that WOULD imply - ONLY supposing - he would crucifiy and deny Christ anew; that the writer is convinced concerning the 'first-principle saved Christian believer that that never will be the case, but that he will bear fruit under the constant supply of the rains from heaven - the constant and unrepentable grace of the Holy Spirit.


Jim:

The “falling away” in Hebrews 6:4-6 is not falling into sin—in verse 12:1, the author refers to “sin which so easily besets us,” thus acknowledging that believers easily fall into sin—it is falling away from the Faith and no longer believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God. The author says that renewing such a person to faith in Christ is virtually “impossible.”

You’re confusing the ACT of “repentance,” to which it is virtually “impossible” to renew someone who no longer believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, according to Hebrews 6:4-6, to “the WORD (ton logon) of the first things of Christ (thV archV tou cristou),” which include the teachings of “repentance” and “faith” and “baptisms” and “the laying of hands” and “the resurrection” and “judgment,” which (this WORD, that is, this doctrine) the author desires the people to whom he is writing to “leave (afenteV, having left)” and to “be led to perfection (epi thn teleiothta ferwmeqa, let us be led on to perfection),” according to Hebrews 6:1-3. The author wants them to stop rehashing the most elementary aspects of Christian doctrine, as “children,” and to move forward to more advanced aspects of Christian doctrine, as “adults.”

What the author is talking about in Hebrews 6:1-3 and what he’s talking about in Hebrews 6:4-6 are two completely different things. You are mistaking in thinking that the one is the other.


Jim

 

The problem lies in your concept of "believe". Sure folks change their mind constantly about what they "believe". This is why God needed to implement a rebirth. Once one is born of God they recieve "knowledge". This knowledge is written on the heart. You cannot escape it or shake it loose. You "know" that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the Way the Truth and the Life. Once you "know" this it is impossible then to return to unbelief. Once you know something is an absolute truth there is no way possible to believe otherwise.

Answer this question. Absolute truth or not? Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Word of God, is God. Absolutes cannot change! Is it an absolute truth or not Jim? Have you been given this knowledge from God?

God Bless!

 

Hi steaver,


steaver:

Is it an absolute truth or not Jim?


Jim:

Like you, I happen to believe it. But the absoluteness of the truth does not force anyone to believe. Most people don’t believe despite the absoluteness of the truth. So the absoluteness of the truth does not guarantee belief.

You’re argument is that if one ever truly believed, then one would be unable to no longer believe thereafter. But that isn’t what’s indicated in the Bible. It’s what indicated in your logic, but it isn’t what’s indicated in the Biblical text.

Further, I’ve seen people go from faith to unbelief. Your argument would be that they were just faking it when they looked as if they believed. But I don’t think so. I think that they went from genuine faith to genuine unbelief, from death to life to death again.


Jim

 

Hi brother, I asked do you "know" if it is an absolute truth? I can "believe" in the tooth fairy, but I cannot say I personally know the tooth fairy. Biblically, believing is personally knowing Jesus Christ and knowing is believing as far as being born of God is concerned.

Jesus said that his children "know" Him.

So what I asked is do you "know" Jesus is God or do you just hope it turns out that way?

I totally agree that is why I asked do you "personally know" that Jesus is God?

Is being a Christian having a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, or is it just another religion to follow?

God Bless!

 

Hi steaver,


steaver (previous message):

Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Word of God, is God. Absolutes cannot change! Is it an absolute truth or not Jim? Have you been given this knowledge from God?


Jim (in response):

Like you, I happen to believe it. But the absoluteness of the truth does not force anyone to believe. Most people don’t believe despite the absoluteness of the truth. So the absoluteness of the truth does not guarantee belief.


steaver (in response):

Hi brother, I asked do you "know" if it is an absolute truth? I can "believe" in the tooth fairy, but I cannot say I personally know the tooth fairy. Biblically, believing is personally knowing Jesus Christ and knowing is believing as far as being born of God is concerned.


Jim (this message):

Yes, I do. I know it, and I know Him.

Because I pay more attention to what the Bible says, specifically, that a believer must endure to the end, than I pay to what you say, specifically, that a believer does not have to endure to the end, you question whether I know Him. I see this as an attempt to redirect attention away from the Bible to your own personal belief system.


Jim

 

Jim, please do not say I said something I didn't. Did I ever say that a believer does not have to endure to the end?

Not that I doubted you know Him. I wanted you to see that because you know Him, you know He is the Way, the Truth and the Life, you cannot possibly ever stop believing it.

This is an attempt on you to brush aside knowledge of an absolute truth. This has nothing to do with a "personal belief system". It is all Bible. I will show you...

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Cor 13:5)

The Bible states here that one will " know " that Jesus Christ is in them, except they be reprobates.

"Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"

"1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jo 5:19 [And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding , that we may know him that is true , and we are in him that is true , [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."

Here is Webster's definition of " know "..."To have knowledge; to be certain of; to recognize; to have acquaintance or experience with, as, to know a thing is so"

" knowledge "..."Clear perception of a truth, fact, or subject. That which is known. Information gained and preserved."

Now, if you " know " the truth, how then can you stop believing that which you know ? The most you could do is lie and say you don't believe it! Because in your heart through knowledge it has already been established as an absolute truth.

There is a point to being born again Jim. It is to give you a personal knowledgeable relationship with Jesus Christ. I know people can reject the truth which really means that they refuse to believe it. It does not mean that they "know" it is truth. But once you recieve knowledge of a truth through personal experience , then you can never stop believing that which you have absolute knowledge of.

Let me play the devil's advocate. Jim, I am a Muslim say, I have faith in what I have been taught. Why is your faith any diferent than mine or any others? I believe in God just like you. So you believe your bible is Truth and I believe mine is Truth. As Ba&a claims on another thread, it's all just faith! You have no proof of any Truth. Maybe you are wrong and Jesus is not the Savior. How do you know Jesus is Lord Jim?

I would wager that your witness would fall along the lines of "you must be born of God". "You must have a personal relationship with God's Son Jesus Christ".

So I would ask...How do you know that your way of salvation is the right way, or don't you know? Are you just hoping it is?

I "know" you "know" the Truth Jim. That is why you cannot ever stop believing It because you can never stop "knowing" It! Hence, the difference between religion and being born again by God!

God Bless!

 

---------------------------------

Is this YOU quoting NO TEXT and then whining that I DO QUOTE it?

Is this YOU avoiding ALL forms of exegesis and complaining that I HIGHLIGHT the DETAIL IN the text showing BELIEF to be active WORK the ACTIVE part of the sinner?

Is this YOU avoiding the POINT raised?

Well - "yes" I guess it is!

Why do you keep doing that Lloyd?

Surely you can do better than that in supporting your position.

-----------------------------------------


Oops! Did I "already post' that unanswered post?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Paul shows that the “SAVING’ them is the whole point of this Gospel preaching. He preaches the Gospel to others in order to SAVE them. He mentions nothing about those saved getting big houses in heaven nor does he mention what great honor and room-size reward he is seeking in heaven. His entire focus is not on “What perk do I get” but on the great value/reward of SALVATION itself as the goal and objective of the Gospel received when preached “to others”.

Now comes that “unpleasant section” for many where Paul points out the seriousness of this Gospel pursuit for the goal of saving people -- so that I may by all means save some. as he says.

It is as a “fellow partaker of the GOSPEL” that Paul wants to participate in preaching. He then shows that his own example in persuing that goal of being “A fellow partaker of the Gospel” is the standard/model/role-model for the saints. He has left the realm of “I am a leader and Apostle and so I have special rights” to the perspective of WE ALL want to be “Fellow partakers” of the Gospel for as he has just pointed out when the Gospel is received the people are saved. (; I have become all things to all men, so that I may by all means save some.)

So now in this “fellow partaker of the Gospel” model for ALL that Paul is offering (in the form of his own life example) he shows how it works. He shows the perspective of the saint, the attitude, the focus the Olympic ALL for the Gospel focus that is NEEDED. IN fact he argues that it is critical EVEN for an Apostle for even in this most exaulted case HE is at risk “LEST after preaching the Gospel to other I MYSELF should be disqualified” from that very Gospel!

How instructive!

Yet how fervently ignored by those who find this to be an “unpleasant” section of scripture!

Take each "detail" and show the meaning IN the 1Cor 9 context itself. Let the argument speak for itself IN the text you are exegeting.

Or do you read vs 23-27 and respond with

And so when Paul says

Do you respond with

"Are you saved by your efforts of paying close attention, persevering and taking pains with those disciplines?"

Will your response to each of these displeasing texts be simply to challenge them and show how your view of "other texts" don't allow these unpleasant texts to exist??


When Paul says

Do you respond with I would hope that you are humble enough to put no faith in yourself........and at least a little in God!

In an effort to misdirect away from the texts above where Paul is being crystal clear – perhaps when you see yourself needing to “gloss over” the details of these text and you respond to them as “inconvenient” to your views on other texts (like Eph 2 for example) it is a sign that those other texts are being taken to extremes in your interpretation.

When we let THE TEXT speak does it cause you to immediately jump to some other "more comfortable" text?

IF so - it is a sign that you have taken what your comfortable texts do not actually say explicitly and have added "inferences" that were never in those texts to start with.

In the case of these "unpleasant" texts - it is the mere quote of them and the insistence on seeing their details rather than glossing over them that is causes so many to have heart burn. [/QUOTE]

Now I am "Really" sure that unanswered post is out there somewhere.

Why so silent OSASers? Lets "discuss" the Bible not merely vain philosophy and speculation.

Take up the points IN THE TEXT above and come out and play friends.

In Christ,

Bob

 

What do you do when you don't like something God writes to the saints - through James??

I have an idea...

It is the "WORK OF GOD that WE BELIEVE" and as James points out - the faith of the individual is SHOWN in their works.

As Jim has been pointing out - that SAME ACTIVITY in BELIEVING is required ALL ALONG.

No salvation is promised in James 2 to "unbelievers".

In fact you have not been able to show ANY PLACE in all of scripture where an UNBELIEVER is to PERSEVERE in their unbelief and so "Be saved".

Your point died a long time ago Lloyd as you avoided the text of scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Did I already post that "unanswered post"?

 

Hi steaver,


Jim (previous message):

Obviously, I don’t believe that the Bible teaches OSAS no matter what. One must believe, and one must continue to believe to the end; that’s what the Bible teaches.


steaver (in response):

The problem lies in your concept of "believe". Sure folks change their mind constantly about what they "believe". This is why God needed to implement a rebirth. Once one is born of God they receive "knowledge". This knowledge is written on the heart. You cannot escape it or shake it loose. You "know" that Jesus is the Son of God and that He is the Way the Truth and the Life. Once you "know" this it is impossible then to return to unbelief. Once you know something is an absolute truth there is no way possible to believe otherwise.


Jim (in response):

You’re argument is that if one ever truly believed, then one would be unable to no longer believe thereafter. But that isn’t what’s indicated in the Bible. It’s what indicated in your logic, but it isn’t what’s indicated in the Biblical text.


steaver (in response):

I asked do you "know" if it is an absolute truth? I can "believe" in the tooth fairy, but I cannot say I personally know the tooth fairy. Biblically, believing is personally knowing Jesus Christ and knowing is believing as far as being born of God is concerned. Jesus said that his children "know" Him. So what I asked is do you "know" Jesus is God or do you just hope it turns out that way?


Jim (in response):

Because I pay more attention to what the Bible says, specifically, that a believer must endure to the end, than I pay to what you say, specifically, that a believer does not have to endure to the end, you question whether I know Him. I see this as an attempt to redirect attention away from the Bible to your own personal belief system.


steaver (in response):

Jim, please do not say I said something I didn't. Did I ever say that a believer does not have to endure to the end?


Jim:

To say that it is impossible to stop believing in Christ is tantamount to saying that a believer does not have to endure to the end; the idea of enduring to the end becomes meaningless if it is impossible not to endure to the end.

Matthew 24:13 o de upomeinaV eiV teloV outoV swqhsetai (But the one who endures to the end, this one will be saved.)

John 6:47 ... o pisteuwn ecei zwhn aiwnion (... the one who believes has eternal life.)

Rationalizing that it is impossible in Matthew 24:13 not to endure to the end is like rationalizing that it is impossible in John 6:47 not to believe. What gives the one who believes in John 6:47 his/her identity is the fact that it is possible not to believe. Likewise, what gives the one who endures in Matthew 24:13 his/her identity is the fact that it is possible not to endure.

Jim

 

Indeed that is Steaver's position - but not Lloyd's.

And it is interesting on the one hand both Steaver and the non-OSAS groups would agree that in the end all who are saved could certainly trace back their history along a timeline where they are persevering the entire time - and at the start you see a point of justification/new birth/ conversion.

So that is where we can agree with Steve. It is just that people like me would also insist that there are people who end up lost - but at one point in time - were in fact saved - believers.

Here is the way I like to put it --

The non-OSAS Arminian can know that he is saved today - but will not know that he will continue to persevere ten years from today.

The OSAS 3 and 5 Point calvinist can not even know that for today - because when they see themselves fail to persevere 10 years from today - they will retro-delete all the supposed assurance that they claimed to have today.

Think about it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Jim, you missed all of my questions (but one) in my last post to you. I'll wait a bit, maybe you didn't have time to respond yet.

God Bless!

 

So what would I be Bob? Just a Christian?

God Bless!

 

Steaver - when the Mormons come to town they knock on your door and tell you a story - then they ask you if your "feel like they are telling the truth". Apparently enough people "feel like that" so that they are one of the fastest growing groups.

But the fact is - that Mormon system is not all we have as our "Assurance" in Christ.

If it were - we would all "feel" like each of our denominations was "it" and would never change.

In Romans 8:15-16 and in John 16 we see that we are ALL given the impartial, infallible, external, objective witness of the Holy Spirit.

In John 16 He is "Convicting the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment". So that would be "HIM" convicting you that Christ is the Son of God!

In Romans 8:15-16 that is HIM "Bearing witness with our spirit that WE ARE the children of God".

The eternal, infallible, dynamic living God is HIMSELF being that witness to speak to each heart. A love the TRUTH - of the WORD of God is in fact also a love of the one who IS THE WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE!

I say that to point to the REAL basis of assurance -- it is in the LIVING GOD who promises a LIVING WITNESS.

But That SAME living God told Adam that he was in PERFECT UNITY with God and told Lucifer that he was PERFECTLY created.

Then they exercised "free will" And we know that after that - the SAME LIVING witness has some new things to tell them.

You simply can not "lock God in a box" -- there is no "Trapping God" so He can never see that you have fallen from your earlier choice to BELIEVE. IF you make that CHOICE -- He will see it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You happen to believe the same thing as the 3 and 5 point Calvinist do when it comes to "perseverance". My "guess" is that this is because you have heard a good Bible teacher speaking on the Bible doctrine of Perseverance and the fact that we must not toss it in the trash can (as does Lloyd). But I also think that the person you were listening to was a 3 or 5 point Calvinist -- so that the model you now have -- looks a lot like the 3 pointers would have it.

So as a Christian you choose the same good position on acceptance of the doctrine of perseverance - but then you combine that with the retro-deleted assurance solution they are forced into once they combine Perseverance with OSAS.

The best Arminian solution is consistently to KEEP the Bible teaching on perseverance but give up the tradition of OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob

 

What's the point of being born of God, Bob?

God Bless!