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Greek Tenses and OSAS

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by ascund, Sep 12, 2005.

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  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Since a number here are trying to find ways to deny the Bible teaching ono Perseverance - I thought I would remind the group of what THE TEXT says --

    I know that seeing these quotes of scripture will likely have Lloyd trying to "refute scripture again" --

    But here they are "anyway"

    These texts do not describe a casual “drift into heaven”.

    But rather a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.

    Well what did you read there?

    "Naturally there is no need to worry about persevering FIRM until the end because you just naturally will"???

    OR

    "Better be sure to PERSEVERE FIRM until the end because only THEY will inherit..."??

    Which did you actually SEE vs which did you "wish to see"?

    The details above are pretty obvious to the reader

    </font>[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
     
    #221 BobRyan, Oct 16, 2005
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I am sure there are those who would read the texts above and decry anyone that actually chooses to "Believe the text" without editing it or trying to do a "Self translated version" that is more pleasing to the traditions and bias of one group or another -- but I would say that the word of God as posted above - is in fact "believable".

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #222 BobRyan, Oct 16, 2005
  3. Sularis

    Sularis Member

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    Heb 6:4-8
    4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
    5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
    6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

    Let's deal with your poorly thought out pulled from somewhere wet and dark verses

    This verse clearly states you fall away - you cant come back.

    Ok cant argue with that - what constitutes falling away - Hrm well the word para-pipto seems to indicate that we are cast out/pushed away due to some failure on our part.

    What makes God cast out that which He has saved?

    I make the suggestion that one can be backslidden and yet still saved - the typical verse 1CO 3:15 - feel free to view context.

    I also make the suggestion that in noways shall God cast out those who come to Him.

    So as to be clear - Please state what causes us to fall away - If possible illustrate the exact point at which one does so.

    Thanx
     
    #223 Sularis, Oct 16, 2005
  4. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Greetings

    Gross confusion of the mutual exclusivity of justification and sanctification makes interpretation difficult. The positional destiny of apostate believers is secure, but they might lose their conditional rewards. The natural conclusion of the words “impossible” and “better” destroys the Arminian view. The Bible testifies to abundant forgiveness.

    The word “impossible” is the death knell for Arminianism. They are right for trying to wiggle out of the common sense understanding. If we take this word “impossible” to its natural conclusions then even the Arminian Sadvocates have no proper explanation and quickly avoid any further discussions on that avenue. Why? In the Arminain view, if a person was saved and then lost, it would be impossible to restore such a person. This is heavy duty trouble for the Arminian view since it nullifies repentance, forgiveness, and restoration. It makes Christianity a hopeless one-shot religion. Thus, even Burton “backs off” from the natural consequences of his self-righteous system by using theological “double-talk” in order to disguise it. He sees the natural result but instead of adjusting his system to fit Scripture, he adjusts scripture to fit his beliefs.

    The natural conclusions of the word “impossible” should make anyone see that salvation is not being discussed. This is a good example of how an unclear verse should not be allowed to nullify an already clearly established doctrine.

    Verses 7-8 show us what is being discussed by using an analogy to farmland. The land wasn’t productive. Nothing but thorns grew on it and the owner had to bear its fruitlessness. Today, many people burn their lawns to eliminate dead stuff and enhance the new growth. Burning only prepares it for the next cycle of cultivating, sowing and reaping so that it can bring fruit in its due time. The ground properly burned and prepared will produce fruit NEXT YEAR! The Arminian view would have to say that land can only produce one crop or that God doesn’t tend to His own fields or that after burning the field He sells it. Each of these options is a damnable heresy!

    In verse 9, the readers receive BETTER things than the apostates. Better is a comparative word. Both apostates and the faithful receive the same type of judgment differing only in a comparative degree. The faithful receive a better reward than the apostates; not a different destiny as in heaven or hell. Here again, if a different type of judgment was in mind the author had other choices of words such as: ajrtavto~ or e{tero~ (Gal 1:6) or nearly 100 other words.

    In context, the Jewish Christians suffering from intense Roman persecution had determined to return to the faith of their fathers. They thought that God was still pleased with the Old Covenant system. Their mind was made up – it would be impossible to return them to the faith. The author was writing to say that God had abandoned the Old Covenant in favor of the New. The author used strong words because they were actually turning their backs on the Majestic God to Whom they thought they returning.

    There is no mention of eternal damnation. Either the author was terribly incompetent to clearly denounce OSASt OR the issue of losing one’s eternal life was never considered because the author believed in OSAS! Clearly God isn’t incompetent; so OSAS is biblical.

    Lloyd
     
    #224 ascund, Oct 16, 2005
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    God's WORD -

    Heb 6:4-8
    4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
    5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
    6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
    [/quote]

    I dont think I have seen God's Word treated with that much disgust before - but clearly you are not afraid to present it as in opposition to your traditions.

    I give you credit for admitting to it.


    The problem is that "you can not FALL AWAY from BEING LOST" you do not go from "Lost" to "LOSTER".

    And there is where your view fails right at the start.


    James identifies the path pretty clearly.

    But you are again very consistent in using THE VERY WORDING of the TEXT of scripture to show your displeasure with it.

    It is HEB 6 that speaks of "falling away". You challenge it saying "SHOW ME - SHOW ME falling away" -- as if you have found something to challnge the text.

    You have not.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #225 BobRyan, Oct 16, 2005
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Both sides agree that Paul is not writing to people that have back-slidden from Christianity and no longer read scripture etc.Rather the READER is going to be some Christian with a copy of the letter to the Hebrews - probably one who is faithful. That is not the issue.
    Not unlike the example Christ gives of the rocky ground where the seed of eternal life DOES bring forth life and for a time it grows and flourishes - life from the dead - as ONLY God can bring about. Brought "to repentance" in such a GOOD way that when one falls away we might seek to RENEW them to such a GOOD state.

    But then.... it perishes.

    IN the case of those WHO HAVE once BEEN enlightened!

    (This is the view of the lost - in darkness ACCEPTING light such that they ARE enlightened - at least at one time).

    AND have tasted of the heavenly gift

    Not the description of the totally depraved lost.


    AND have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
    5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

    This is never the description of the totally depraved lost experience.

    "AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY"

    clearly FALLING away from being LOST is not a bad thing - it is a GOOD thing.

    In Calvinism the lost never "fall away" from being lost. ONLY THE SAINTS can "fall away" ONLY THE SAINTS fail to remain in their initial condition, it is impossible for the totally depraved LOST to “fall away” from being lost.

    Paul speaks of those that THEN have FALLEN AWAY from repentance, from the Holy Spirit, from the Heavenly Gift which is in fact salvation itself given as a gift through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Notice the first state of REPENTANCE is NOT called into question –

    Notice the first state of “The Heavenly gift” and “partaking of the Holy Spirit” is the state in which they are supposed to have REMAINED. They are never chastised for BEING in that state – as if that was still “the lost state”. Indeed falling away from “a lost state” could only have been a good thing.

    On the other hand – if that state were merely the corrupt state of false profession and halting just outside the threshold of the kingdom- then who cares whether we can RENEW THEM AGAIN to such an indecisive, unsaved, lost and totally depraved state of corruption?

    Calvinists make a mockery of this text by denying it's clear meaning regarding RENEWING people back to Godly - genuine repentance and “tasting of the REAL heavenly gift” which is salvation itself.

    Many/most calvinists would have us believe that worthless ground does NOT receive the same grace/ministry/drawing/calling as the good ground AND SO IT STAYS as worthless ground. INSTEAD of that view - scripture says they both receive the life giving ministry but the ground ITSELF is determining the response.

    Notice in the comparison - Paul makes it very clear that it is the SAVED state that is the ideal/good state from which one does not
    want to fall.
     
    #226 BobRyan, Oct 16, 2005
  7. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Per normal Bob cannot come to grips with the words "impossible" and "better."

    The word "impossible" condemns his denials of Christ's Cross and God's faithfulness. The clear teaching of the word shows that his system of human-centered self-righteousness leads to an irrecoverable death. For Bob's obtuse system, one sin and it is IMPOSSIBLE to repent. Yet the Bible repeatedly shows that repentance is available to all - in any state - many times.

    Bob goes out of his way to cover up the natural occurrences of his system of death.

    [quote:]Heb 6:7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
    8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

    Many/most calvinists would have us believe that worthless ground does NOT receive the same grace/ministry/drawing/calling as the good ground AND SO IT STAYS as worthless ground. INSTEAD of that view - scripture says they both receive the life giving ministry but the ground ITSELF is determining the response.[/quote]

    Bob cannot handle the word "BETTER." The ground that grows weeds isn't sold - it is burned so that it can produce fruit the next year. Bob twists and turns so avoid the clear OSAS implications. God, the farmer, is faithful and will plant seed next year.

    Bob is so blind that all he can do is print words without thinking. His human-centered philosophy opposes God and Christ's righteousness at every turn.

    Lloyd
     
    #227 ascund, Oct 16, 2005
  8. Sularis

    Sularis Member

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    I believe Heb - says IF someone could stop being saved - then they cant be resaved. This to me means sin is stronger - IF this view was true.

    WHICH IT ISNT

    All I am asking is for is an example - preferrably two - of where a Christian can fall away - rocky ground, thorns - don't count - I'd like actions more clearly defined as to what causes one to fall from being saved.

    PS - I have plenty of respect for Scripture - just not the people quoting it - and that's Biblical
     
    #228 Sularis, Oct 17, 2005
  9. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Greetings

    You have grasped the point rather well!
    Now you have followed the first strike with another excellent request:
    Christ-denying Arminians are not able to respond with a clear example. They will run to the many sanctification passages and try to redefine them as justification. This is why Luther held that justification is the chief article by which the Church or an individual stands or falls!

    Great post!
    Super penetrating question!
    No Arminian will answer your question directly.

    Lloyd
     
    #229 ascund, Oct 17, 2005
  10. Sularis

    Sularis Member

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    Pssst - Im not a Calvinist ;)

    and I DONT really see how being one or the other or in the middle affects OSAS - since I've seen both sides split on this issue

    Remember its very important WE dont lose our salvation IF we can lose it. GOD casts us out/off. SO this indicates something we do pisses off God more then our usual sinning for which HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness; and so HE being royally ticked kicks us out!

    So this is crucial what can we do to get kicked out?

    If no one cares to answer this - anyone want to play "Let's Pretend!" and come up with an answer that would work in the pretend world of lost salvation.
     
    #230 Sularis, Oct 18, 2005
  11. ccrobinson

    ccrobinson Active Member

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    I'll play "Let's Pretend". I believe in OSAS and just finished a debate in another thread with somebody who doesn't believe in OSAS and has taken his ball and bat and gone home.

    I asked this very question, what specific actions will cause us to lose our salvation. To his credit, he gave a list, a list that I didn't think I would ever see, and here it is.

    Posted by somebody else in a different thread.:
    What if we went through these one at a time to see which one or more could cause us to lose our salvation?

    I talked about John 15 in another thread and here's my conclusion.

    John 15:2-6
    Let's assume that John 15 is actually speaking of salvation. If so, there's trouble here for the Christian.

    However, what do we do with Galatians 2:20?

    If Christ lives in us as Christians, then John 15 would mean that Christ himself would be cut off from the vine. In other words, Christ living in us, the branch, would be cut off from Christ the vine.

    Absurd!

    Christ can't be cut off from himself and he certainly can't be burned. So, John 15 would mean that Christ is going to leave the unfruitful Christian so they can be cut off and burned. But, I seem to remember where He said He wasn't going to leave us.

    Hebrews 13:5
    If John 15 is about salvation, then God is totally lying to us in Galatians 2:20 and Hebrews 13:5. However, I remember Romans 3:4.

    Romans 3:4
    This says that He doesn't lie, but man does.

    The only inescapable conclusion we can draw is that John 15 doesn't speak of salvation. If I'm missing something about John 15 that I need to see, please enlighten me. Otherwise... next!
     
    #231 ccrobinson, Oct 18, 2005
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Since Lloyd - and a few others are ducking the point about "falling away from LOST" being a "GOOD THING" and NOT being the subject of Heb 6 -- I post it "again" hoping that the text itself will soon "have some interest" for those that reject it.


    Not unlike the example Christ gives of the rocky ground where the seed of eternal life DOES bring forth life and for a time it grows and flourishes - life from the dead - as ONLY God can bring about. Brought "to repentance" in such a GOOD way that when one falls away we might seek to RENEW them to such a GOOD state.

    But then.... it perishes.

    IN the case of those WHO HAVE once BEEN enlightened!

    (This is the view of the lost - in darkness ACCEPTING light such that they ARE enlightened - at least at one time).

    AND have tasted of the heavenly gift

    Not the description of the totally depraved lost.


    AND have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
    5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

    This is never the description of the totally depraved lost experience.

    "AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY"

    clearly FALLING away from being LOST is not a bad thing - it is a GOOD thing.

    In Calvinism the lost never "fall away" from being lost. ONLY THE SAINTS can "fall away" ONLY THE SAINTS fail to remain in their initial condition, it is impossible for the totally depraved LOST to “fall away” from being lost.

    Paul speaks of those that THEN have FALLEN AWAY from repentance, from the Holy Spirit, from the Heavenly Gift which is in fact salvation itself given as a gift through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Notice the first state of REPENTANCE is NOT called into question –

    Notice the first state of “The Heavenly gift” and “partaking of the Holy Spirit” is the state in which they are supposed to have REMAINED. They are never chastised for BEING in that state – as if that was still “the lost state”. Indeed falling away from “a lost state” could only have been a good thing.

    On the other hand – if that state were merely the corrupt state of false profession and halting just outside the threshold of the kingdom- then who cares whether we can RENEW THEM AGAIN to such an indecisive, unsaved, lost and totally depraved state of corruption?

    Calvinists make a mockery of this text by denying it's clear meaning regarding RENEWING people back to Godly - genuine repentance and “tasting of the REAL heavenly gift” which is salvation itself.

    Many/most calvinists would have us believe that worthless ground does NOT receive the same grace/ministry/drawing/calling as the good ground AND SO IT STAYS as worthless ground. INSTEAD of that view - scripture says they both receive the life giving ministry but the ground ITSELF is determining the response.

    Notice in the comparison - Paul makes it very clear that it is the SAVED state that is the ideal/good state from which one does not
    want to fall. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]
     
    #232 BobRyan, Oct 18, 2005
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #233 BobRyan, Oct 18, 2005
  14. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Silly BobRyan

    Falling away is NOT a good thing. Such mindless jumps from one extreme to another are childish and unscholarly.

    But know for certain that falling away is NOT associated with eternal damnation. It is an issue of rewards. Falling away = no (or few) rewards.

    When one cannot (or is not able to) comprehend justification, then many errors follow.

    Bob confuses justification with sanctification. He botches destiny with rewards. No telling how many other lies he has had to fabricate in order to continue embracing the devil's deceptions.

    Your analysis fails because you do not pay attention to the word "impossible." If your system is right, then no one can ever repent. If your system is right, then we all go to hell. Your system is void of true hope. It is a system of death.

    Trust Christ alone!
    Lloyd
     
    #234 ascund, Oct 19, 2005
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Not for the saints it is NOT -- that is obvious.

    But when some here bend and spin the text of Heb 6 so that INSTEAD of the obvious statement it makes about the saved "falling away" and the warning it gives -- it is made to talk about the LOST FALLING away -- THEN you have a double negative and you have turned the text on its head!!

    And as noted - FALLING AWAY from BEING LOST - is not to be "LOSTER" as some have supposed. That nonsensical spin of the text - failed.

    Obviously.

    You on the other hand try to limit the meaning to "number of toys in heaven"

    But no toys are even mentioned rather it is "ESCAPED" that is mentioned. It is THE HOLY SPIRIT that is mentioned. It is the BASICS of salvation that are being experienced and then LEFT!

    To deny that the Holy Spirit is essential to eternal life as you are doing - is to deny the Gospel itself!

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #235 BobRyan, Oct 19, 2005
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    ENDS up being BURNED is not spinnable to "ends up with fewer toys in heaven".
     
    #236 BobRyan, Oct 19, 2005
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Paul speaks of those that THEN have FALLEN AWAY from repentance, from the Holy Spirit, from the Heavenly Gift which is in fact salvation itself given as a gift through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

    Notice the first state of REPENTANCE is NOT called into question –
     
    #237 BobRyan, Oct 19, 2005
  18. HanSola2000

    HanSola2000 Guest

    Calvinists are deceivers. Hebrews is clear about what can happen to backsliders, and to those who would return to Judaism--damnation. YOur excuses can never change the real threat sin poses to us all.
     
    #238 HanSola2000, Oct 19, 2005
  19. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Hey BobRyan

    More foolishness on your part. It doesn't even pass the common sense testing.

    Ask farmers with weeds in their fields what they do. They will say, burn the field so that I can get a good crop next year.

    But Bob would have it seem as if burn the crop so that I can lose the field. Where is the common sense Bob? This ploy is the result of a human-centered attempt to please God. In doing so, you unwittingly deny Christ and His righteousness.

    So you botch the common sense understanding of all the key words in the text: impossible, burn, and better.

    That is a total strike out in one context!
    Lloyd
     
    #239 ascund, Oct 19, 2005
  20. ascund

    ascund New Member

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    Greetings

    Get it right Bob! The word better is used for comparision - not contrast. Both saved apostates and the saved faithful receive the same type of judgment differing only in a comparative degree. The saved faithful receive a better reward than the saved apostates; not a different destiny as in heaven or hell. Here again, if a different type of judgment was in mind the author had other choices of words such as: artavtos or heteros (Gal 1:6) or nearly 100 other words.

    While you are a master of twist, redefine, and pervert,
    Better is not different! Both are saved!

    Lloyd
     
    #240 ascund, Oct 19, 2005
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