Greek Tenses and OSAS

It is not so simple to prove that one is saved. Is it?

 

On the other hand it is easy to prove that God warns the saved against actions that result in the loss of salvation - in fact "Falling from Grace" Gal 5.

Specifically the issue of Matt 18 "Forgiveness Revoked"

 

How about the concepts in Ephesians 1 about being sealed by the Spirit and that of a down payment? I've never heard anyone explain those from a non OSAS position to my satisfaction.

Anyone care to add their thoughts on this?

FA

 

I believe a seal can be broken.

 

So then God, the Holy Spirit, can seal the believer and that can be broken?

Paul indicates here that when we have trusted in Christ, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a pledge indicating that we are His possession, and that He will protect us from being tampered with, and preserve us to the end (time of glorification at the Day of redemption). It is a very powerful statement of our security in Christ. How can someone who was given the Holy Spirit as a seal to ensure that we are not tampered with and to preserve us then lose that eternal life? We have been sealed. We WILL arrive safely at the port we are heading for (heaven).

FA

[ November 16, 2005, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Faith alone ]

 

So then God, the Holy Spirit, can seal the believer and that can be broken?

Paul indicates here that when we have trusted in Christ, we are sealed by the Holy Spirit as a pledge indicating that we are His possession, and that He will protect us from being tampered with, and preserve us to the end (time of glorification at the Day of redemption). It is a very powerful statement of our security in Christ. How can someone who was given the Holy Spirit as a seal to ensure that we are not tampered with and to preserve us then lose that eternal life? We have been sealed. We WILL arrive safely at the port we are heading for (heaven).

FA </font>[/QUOTE]Matt 6:14-15 For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you, but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Does this really mean what it says, or does it mean something else? I think this means exactly what it says. Is God’s forgiveness conditional or unconditional? What if we stop forgiving others? Is it still within my free will to do that or will God override my free will? If this was an impossibility, it makes absolutely no sense to give the admonition. If a Christian can do this, are you implying they will be saved with a multitude of unforgiven sins? This is not about being in fellowship with God, this is about forgiveness of sins!!! Words have meaning. If this doesn’t mean what it says, then we can’t know what it means.

I John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

What if we stop confessing ours sins to God? If He keeps on cleaning us anyway, this verse is without meaning. This verse is dealing with the forgiveness of sins.

What will judgment be based upon? What we believe or what we have done based on our beliefs?

What do the scriptures say?

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

Acts 17:30-31, The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent, 31because he has fixed a day on which he will judge the world in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed; and of this he has given assurance to all by raising him from the dead."

What does it mean, judge the world in righteousness? The Psalmist said in Psalm 119:172, My tongue shall speak of Your word, For all Your commandments are righteousness.

Jesus also said in John 12:48 “The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.

Therefore, we will be judged, not on hearing and believing the words of Christ, but upon what we do. James said, “But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.” I think many are deceived today, just as James said they would be. Now do deceived people know they are deceived? Of course not, otherwise, they would not be deceived.

James also says, “If anyone thinks he is religious and does not bridle his tongue but deceives his heart, this person's religion is worthless.”

Worthless religion? What is this guy’s problem? Unbelieving? No. Insincerity? No, not that either. He can’t control his tongue. If OSAS were true, no one’s religion would ever be worthless.

As discussed many times, Peter says “For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.”

How could it be possible for someone to be better off having never heard the gospel and escaping the entanglement of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ? The only way is for OSAS to be FALSE.

Again will judgment be based on belief or deeds? Rom 2:6-8, “He will render to each one according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury.

Will judgment be based on belief or actions? Does man lose all free will after becoming a Christian or are actions no longer important? II Cor 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil.

There are other places I could also go to show that judgment will be based upon our actions. Until a man is physically dead, he has a choice.
Rev 3:3-5, “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
The instruction to the church at Sardis is clear. Either change or you names will be blotted out of the book of life. What happens to the one who does not overcome? If it were impossible to have your name blotted out, the force of this reprimand is brought to naught.
Sometimes we spend too much time trying to fix a flat tire, when the engine is missing. For this reason, I am choose to limit my participation on this board to matters dealing with salvation, with some exceptions. I do not have enough time to chase rabbits, and question the effectiveness of that anyway. Anyone who truly seeks the truth, will find it. I am convinced that most religious folks are not seeking truth, because they think they have it. I fear that most on this board are not seeking truth, but seeking to win an argument, or prove they are right. They go to the scriptures to prove their doctrine rather than going to the scriptures to get their doctrine.

Matt 7:21-23, "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Many people think they are doing the right thing, yet they are not known by Jesus. Even though they devote their life in service to Jesus, it is all for naught. They believe in Jesus and call him Lord. They are deceived. They thought they were saved. They even argue with Jesus, a sign of sincerity. What is their problem, not believing? No, they believe. They do not do the will of the Father in heaven. They are false teachers, sincere as they may be.

As stated earlier, Jesus said we would be judged by His words. Did he not say, “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved”? Will we be judged by those words? I cannot imagine anyone who says, “I believe in Jesus, I make him Lord of my life, yet I’m not going to do what he says”.

For someone to claim that all one has to do is believe only and they are saved, with no possibility of ever being lost sure sounds broad and easy to me. The broad way leads to destruction, but he narrow way leads to life, and few find it.

As to your question in Ephesians, later on Paul says in Chapter 5, “3But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

When he said everyone, did he mean everyone or did he mean something else such as everyone who is not a Christian? Now, is an alien sinner lost because they are sexually immoral? No, they are lost because they have not had their sins washed away by the blood of Christ. So many people are deceived by empty words, just like Paul warned against. They hear, once you are saved you are always saved. I Cor 6:11 says basically the same thing that such “were” some of you. Now, it is possible to slip back into that type of lifestyle (washed and entangled again (II Pet 2:20). Paul says don’t be deceived, people who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

I’ve already said too much, but time will not permit any more.

 

Janosik: //OSAS - If one is saved then one is always saved.
This is man made statement that can not be proven
that it's a true statement.//

Ok, fine. What ever John 3:16 means; I define
OSAS to mean the same thing. Now, for your statement
to make sense, you have to disagree with John 3:16.

Webdog: //Jesus is the one who used the phrases "eternal life"
and "everlasting life". Hardly man made. It's amazing
how two simple phrases can be yanked and twisted to not
mean eternal and everlasting. It's proven. It's true. //

Amen, Brother Webdog -- Preach it!

RobRyan: //On the other hand it is easy to prove that God warns the saved
against actions that result in the loss of salvation - in
fact "Falling from Grace" Gal 5.//

Gal 5:1 (HCSB):
Christ has liberated us into freedom.
Therefore stand firm and don't submit again to
a yoke of slavery.

Ain't in Gal 5:1 which is OSAS as can be.

Gal 5:2 - yep, nothing you can do will get you more saved
than you are now.

Ah, here is the 'fall from grace':

Gal 5:4 (HCSB):
You who are trying to be justified by the law
are alienated from Christ; you have fallen from grace.

If this person had been saved as Jesus says and will NOT PERISH,
then they get to trying to let the law justify them,
then they fall from grace and will perish. THIS IS ILLOGICAL.

If this person never had been saved, but tryied to justify themselves
by 'keeping the law', then the 'fall from grace' would not
nulify the NOT PERISH they never had. This is LOGICAL.

non-OSAS is ILLOGICAL
OSAS is LOGICAL.

Again, you have to have John 3:16 to be a lie to negate OSAS.

Gal 5:4 an examle of NSAL = never saved, always lost

 

A free will can break the seal.

John 3:16 - fine, how do you prove that you believe in Jesus?

 

mman,

Thx for responding. Unfortunately I don't have time to respond to all of your post today. I did notice that no one ever addressed my question about Ephesians 1:13, 14... When I get a chance I will bring things back to that text, since this thread was on the Greek significance to OSAS.

OK, you said...

Of course it means what it says... the question is just what does it say. Anoher good question to ask is if any portion of scripture can contradict any other portion of scripture.

1 John 6:9ff is the Lord's prayer - or actually the Lord teaching His disciples how to pray. It starts out with, "Therefore, you should pray like this..." Does anything in that prayer have to do with gaining or maintaining eternal life? No.

The question to ask is why is it important to forgive the trespasses a brother makes against us? Does it have anything to do with their salvation? No, of course not. It has to do with our relationship, our fellowship with them. Similarly, this is simply saying that if we do not maintain fellowship with one another we cannot remain in fellowship with God. IOW, we cannot claim that we are in a close walk with the Lord while our walk with other believers is not good. And John does have lots to say about just that in his letter.

I'm glad you mentioned 1 John 1:9, because I was going to sharte that text. You seem to think that the forgiveness of sins in 1 John 1 has to do with justification - with gaining eternal life.

But let's look at it in context and it will be clear that John is writing this letter to believers so that they will learn to walk in fellowship with God, as well as with one anotehr. IOT do so, they need to have victory over sin.

1 John 1 has absolutely nothing to do with gaining eternal life. John in fact wants them to have confidence that they have gained eternal life. (1 John 5:11-13)

OK, here it is in context:

John is saying that we all sin. Anyone who says that he doesn't sin and has not sinned, while he has some unconfessed sin, is just fooling himself. Sin breaks our fellowship with God. Confessing sin restores it. To confess does not mean to renounce sin. It simply means "to agree with God" about it. The opposite of confession is to deny it - to justify it. To confess our sin is to not claim we didn't do it, but to acknowledge it.

Confession is the first step to restoring a broken relationship of any kind - whether with people or with our Lord.

Unrighteousness breaks our fellowship with God. But when we agree with God about those things that He brings to our attention, then he not only forgives us the sin, but He cleanses our life of the affect of all sin, known and unknown.

To confess sin whenever God brings it to our attention is to walk in the light. That's what 1 John is about - not about gaining eternal life. Every sin we have ever committed has already been paid for by Christ's death on the cross.

But we still live in these "bodies of death" as Paul calls them. So we still need to confess our sin - but not to have the penalty for it paid. 1 John 2:1, 2 says that we have an Advocate, who has already paid the price.

Well, gotta go. I'll try to get back to those otehr texts tomorrow - but I'd appreciate it if someone would addrtess my original question concenring Ephesians 1:13, 14.

Take care,

FA

 

FA,

a free will can break the seal.

 

To reject the speculative notions of OSAS is to accept the Bible teaching of Matt 18 "Forgiveness revoked" it is to accept the Bible teaching of 1Tim 1 "Shipwreck of faith" it is to accept the Bible teaching of Gal 5 "Fallen from Grace".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Actually I did, you just didn't catch it. My point is that no scripture contradicts another. What Paul says in Chapter 5 does not contradict what he says in Chapter 1.

Here's what I said before, "As to your question in Ephesians, later on Paul says in Chapter 5, “3But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints. 4Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving. 5For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God. 6Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.

When he said everyone, did he mean everyone or did he mean something else such as everyone who is not a Christian? Now, is an alien sinner lost because they are sexually immoral? No, they are lost because they have not had their sins washed away by the blood of Christ. So many people are deceived by empty words, just like Paul warned against. They hear, once you are saved you are always saved. I Cor 6:11 says basically the same thing that such “were” some of you. Now, it is possible to slip back into that type of lifestyle (washed and entangled again (II Pet 2:20). Paul says don’t be deceived, people who do these things will not inherit the kingdom of God."

If OSAS were true, then James 5:19-20 makes no sense and serious mental gymnastics are required to explain it away.

James 5:19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

How can wander from the truth if they were never in the truth?

What is the result of bringing them back? Save their soul from death.

What does this imply? If they are not brought back into the truth, the result is the death of their soul.

What kind of death? Physical or Spiritual? It cannot mean physical because if that were true, those walking in the truth would never die. Therefore it must mean spiritual death. I have heard many lame attempts to explain this away, but the only motive to try and explain it away is to hold on to prior beliefs. I am convinced that if one would read this for what it says, removing preconceived notions and all bias, the conclusion is undeniable.

What is the obvious conclusion when you read, "20For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."? - II Pet 2:20-22

You have to have help to misunderstand this, it is so plain.

If OSAS were true, explain to me how it "would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back"?

The anology is plain. How were they made clean? They have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

What happened to them? They are again entangled in them and overcome.

They had been untangle and washed, yet they are entangled again. They had been untangled and washed. They are now entangled again. Don't try and argue they were never really untangled or washed because that is not true to the text.

What is the obvious conclusion to this passage? Why do so many demand an obscure meaning? If OSAS were true, then anyone who has knowledge of our Lord and Savior and then is untangled and washed is always saved. That cannot be true since it would have been better for these people to have never been untangled, washed, or even heard the good news about Jesus.

There are many many passages that teach against OSAS. The NT is filled with conditional statements. There is nothing conditional about OSAS.

Gotta run.... won't return till next week.

 

Janosik: //A free will can break the seal.//

When you believe in Jesus and Jesus saves you,
then you have no free will; your will becomes
a slave to Jesus.

Mman: //I John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just
to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.//

What if we stop confessing ours sins to God?
If He keeps on cleaning us anyway, this verse is without
meaning. This verse is dealing with the forgiveness of sins.//


Faith Alone: //Of course it means what it says...
the question is just what does it say.//

Amen, Brother Faith Alone -- Preach it!

One problem seems to be with the word 'all'.
'All' means each and every member of the specified set.

What is the specified set here at this all?

I John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just
to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Bro. Mman seems to think that this "the forgiviness of sins".
What The sins committed up to the time of salvation?
The sins commited after salvation?

I think I john 1:9 goes beyond the initial clensing of sin (Justification).
This great Verse (Which i use in working with those who wish
to rededicate their lives to Christ) is about Sanctification Salvation.
Like all types of Salvation, Jesus is the one who does the Saving,
what we have to do is believe, but even that is no work, for belief
also is a gift from God.

You know I took a shower last night. But some one keeps sweating
under my arms and bacteria live there that cause a stench. I'll
have to clean myself again tonight. It is a human thing.
In a similiar manner, Jesus will have to cleanse me again for today's
sins sins. This 1 John 1:9 assures me that if i'll agree with God
that i've sinned and confess those sins, Jesus will give me another
shower: forgive me of today's sins.

For the saved person there are three times of salvation:

PAST - initial justification salvation - by Jesus
PRESENT - daily scantification salvation - by Jesus
FUTURE - final glorification salvation - by Jesus.

Janosik: //a free will can break the seal.//

Your free will died on the cross with Jesus.
You are baptized down into water (grave) to show your free will
dying with Christ.

 

Exclellent points. A keeper.

In Christ,

Bob

 

For those that think their free will died at the cross - so that painstaking dilligent striving - effort - work is no longer needed...

These texts do not describe a defacto “drift into heaven”.

But rather a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.

The OSAS doctrine guts the very core of the “motivation” we see in 1Cor 9 as Paul EXPLICITLY says “LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified”. OSAS goes after that point – directly, explicitly and without remorse.

"Take pains with these things" -- why?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ahh - the "purification" or forgiveness of past sins "the former sins".

And as James pointed out - the "covering of the multitude of sin" is with respect to those that have fallen away and are again restored to the truth.

In Christ,

Bob

 

At some point you have to ask youself how it is that the Bible hammers this same obvious point explicitly for text after text after text and yet there are those who STILL opt for OSAS instead of these texts?

How can that be?

 

Our understanding of one verse cannot
negate another verse.

Gal 5:13 (KJV1611 Edition):
For brethren, ye haue beene called vnto liberty, onely vse not libertie for an occasion to the flesh, but by loue serue one another.

Phi 2:12 (KJV1611 Edtion):
Wherefore, my beloued, as yee haue alwayes obeyed, not as in my presence onely, but now much more in my absence; worke out your owne saluation with feare, and trembling.

Jesus saves, but you have to do your good
works as a result/

Yes, the Slave of Christ must engage in
"painstaking dilligent striving - effort - work".
This is not through fear, but out of love
of Christ.

 

I'll say it again:

OSAS means the same thing that this means:

Joh 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

Whenever you can prove this scripture false,
you will have shown OSAS false also.
Which part of "euerlasting life" are you
having a problem with?

 

What if we could "rewrite those texts" as you suggest so that Paul says "I buffet my body and make it my slave as a good noble discipline because this is even better than other options"... instead of what we just read?

What if Paul said "take pains with these things - be diligent for in this way you will have access to good diligent noble exercise" instead of what we read above?!

Then - Ed - your point would be made that it is just the diligent striving effort of the Christian who simply likes doing that and all that stuff about "ends up being burned" and "in this way ensure salvation" and "lest after preaching the Gospel to others I should be disqualified from it".. is just so much Bible to be ignored while avoiding the context

In Christ,

Bob