Does God send His children to hell?

Looks like your question.
</font>[/QUOTE]Actually you are the one that keeps asking "What is the point" when I point out that Matt 18 and Romans 11 and ... show that we are FREE to choose EVEN AFTER we are saved.

When I show that ADAM was given CHOICE even AFTER being created SINLESS - and that this did not mean he would STAY SINLESS no matter "what choice he makes" you seem to continually ask "so what is the point"??

Adam was not given the CHOICE to be created.

But we ARE given the CHOICE to accept Christ - to submit to the Gospel or stay in rebellion.

True.

True.

"The purpose of that new birth - NEW creation is to restor UNION with God - to restore the relationship that was broken by the fall - to provide the Romans 6 FREEDOM from slavery to sinning that is promised in the Gospel - to enable us to SO WALK IN Christ Jesus".

The Romans 8:16 PURPOSE of the Holy Spirit "bearing witness with our spirit that we ARE the children of God" is to give us the assurance that WE ARE the children of God. The assurance that if we died today we would be with Christ in that 1Thess 4 future for the "dead in Christ".

Umm - "yeah" you keep suggesting that this is the case.

But Matt 18 sorta debunked the idea that "forgiveness revoked" has been denied to God as an option for those who have once accepted Christ and then turn away.

That is a good text for what you are trying to say "viewing it backwards". That is watching until the END - and then saying -- ALL those who CONTINUED until the end -- were really in.

Jhn 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.

It is pretty hard to argue Lloyd's point that "doing the deeds of their father" did not affect their salvation.

(This is what I have been debating with Lloyd for weeks - you seem to think Lloyd is making YOUR point in that debate)

Jhn 8:44 Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.


As Christ said in Matt 7 "NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord but he who DOES the will of My Father"

(But that is another point).

In Christ,

Bob

 

Suppose I "offer a gospel" that does NOT include the sinner being "born again" -- is that "ANOTHER Gospel" or is that STILL the SAME Gospel Steaver??

I think it is "ANOTHER Gospel".

Those who preach "ANOTHER Gospel" (even if it only lasts for 4000 years in the OT) are not blessed according to Gal 1:6-11.

In john 3 Christ did NOT say to Nicodemus "YOU will SOME DAY in the FUTURE have to be BORN again to enter the kingdom of heaven".

Christ did not say to Enoch and Elijah "YOU CAN NOT enter the kingdom of heaven because I forgot to have you be born again -- just float in space a while"

Christ did NOT say to Nicodemus "YOU as a teacher of scripture in Israel SHOULD HAVE NO CLUE about being BORN Again -- that NEW Gospel has not come about yet".

Your point above - goes against all the ONE GOSPEL models of scripture.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I made a paralalel of your illustration, and in fact it was true of my life.
Yes, in fact at one time in my life I was kicked out of my house by my father. It was for a choice that I made. It was because of my free will. I made the choice. I faced the consequences and the penalty of my own free will. The only difference in the illustration is that the decision that I made was to be saved. I got kicked out becasue my father was not saved, and he did not like the decision that I made. Otherwise my example follows closely to what you said.

You have not satisfactorily answered the question how a person such as myself, though kicked out of my family, can ever change the fact that I still am my father's son. Nothing can change that fact. God designed the DNA that I inherited from my father and mother, and there is absolutely nothing that I can do about that. I will always be my father's son, no matter what I do.
No matter what I do, once I am born again, I will always be my Heavenly Father's son. I cannot be unborn. It is an impossibility. You cannot undo history, or undo that which already had been done.
Can you explain this dilemma away Bob. You have failed to answer this yet.
DHK

 

ClaudiaT: "If you want to continue living in the flesh, in the carnal, at enimity with God, then NO you are not a child of God at all, you are not born of God at all. You are a child of the devil who has chosen his ways.

But on the other hand, if you accept the sacrifice of Christ and rely upon His blood alone, putting self aside... which also involves a giving up of the flesh, a giving up of the former carnal mind and instead walking in the Spirit... which is in harmony with God's Law... THEN you are indeed a child of God, born of God."
-------------------------------------------------
But how can you be putting self aside at the same time ACCEPTING the sacrifice of Christ and RELYING upon His blood. Doesn't it take self to accept Christ and rely upon His blood?

 

Greeting steaver

Good post! I only have one small disagreement.

Jesus was perplexed that a master teacher did not know about the new birth from above.

Salvation in either testament is by faith in Jesus - apart from works - apart from sacraments or rites - apart from obedience.

This is a nit-noid compared to the gnomic truths you presented.
Lloyd

 

Hey BobRyan

There is only ONE GOSPEL. This gospel message is by faith in Jesus apart from baptism, sacraments, rites or human obedience.

This is how Abraham was saved! Paul uses Abraham (ROM 4) as a fitting example for all regardless of testament or circumcision.

I find it incredible that a Christ-denying Arminian would find a small slip up in terminology and yet fail to notice the huge hole in their own self-righteous human-centered system of death.

Lloyd

 

The text of John 3 is crystal clear (so clear in fact that even Lloyd gets this part -- so it has to be incredibly obvious)

Christ said in John 14 that the "Spirit IS WITH YOU" -- but we do not see him in the pentecostal outpouring until Acts 2.

However we DO see the Spirit of God JUST as CHRIST insisted with Nicodemus PRE-CROSS as even Chirst HIMSELF insists that only the SPIRIT LEADS to Christ and has Christ HIMSELF insists that EVERY Bible teacher in Israel should be aware of this obvious fact from scripture.

In fact in Isaiah 59 we see the promise given to Israel that God's Spirit would be in them forever.

For a study on God the Holy Spirit BEFORE the Cross... stay tuned.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Christ said that the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit as in Acts 2 – Pentecost had not been given precross – but some would take this to mean that the Holy Spirit either did not EXIST precross or He was not working on the hearts of man – with the saints PRECross. Not bringing about the Gospel benefit of the NEW BIRTH to the totally depraved wicked sinful fallen children of Adam precross. Christ denies that teaching PRE-CROSS in John 3 and even in the OT.

In the pre-cross teaching of Christ – we see Israel’s Bible teachers rebuked for not admitting from scripture – that the Holy Spirit is essential to salvation.

The NT Gospel accounts confirms the reality of the Holy Spirit PRE-Cross

OT witness to the saints filled with the Spirit of God –

 

There is only ONE GOSPEL.
</font>[/QUOTE]It is neat that you get that Lloyd! I have to say that this is one time I agree with you.

If you find "the gospel apart from faith" please show it.

If you find "the obedience of faith" to be excluded from the Gospel - please show it.

IF what you mean is "JUSTIFICATION by grace through faith NOT of works lest any man should boast" (you know Lloyd -- scripture not just more Lloyd) then you are simply saying "Gospel" where you mean to say JUSTIFICATION.

Recall that in Romans 2 Paul includes future judgment IN THE GOSPEL - he speaks of FUTURE judgment of all and says "Accoring to My Gospel" -- so the GOSPEL includes MORE than past Justification.

See?

That is exactly right!

I find it hard to believe that you would get this Lloyd, but clearly this is one part of the truth you are able to comprehend AND accept without denying it!

Bravo bro!

I am happy that you have this one part right and have chosen to leave it in the Gospel of truth!

There is hope for you yet bro!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hey BobRyan

You have a tragic and woeful understanding of the relationship of justification to sanctification. A long while ago, I presented the lexical evidences of justification and sanctification. You have run from them ever since.

The Bible teaches both birth and growth. Birth is justification; growth is sanctification. Your Christ-denying theology would make justification dependent on sanctification.

You throw out dependence on Christ's Cross and exalt the foibles of human obedience. You make birth depend on growth. This is silly!

While no one makes a baby pass a college entrance exam in order to be born, you demand continuing faithfullness and perfection before God rewards justification. It is a wily denunciation of Christ's righteousness and sufficiency.

Justification is:
__ an EVENT
__ by God's gracious offer of pardon - alone;
__ by faith - alone;
__ in Christ - alone.

Sanctification is:
__ the EVENT of separation unto God (adoption);
__ the PROCESS of purification for fellowship.

Sanctification is a permanent EVENT (Acts 20:32) where God's inheritance is given to all who are sanctified. Since inheritance is in parallel with sanctification, it must also be an EVENT. Believers are separated unto God. The Perfect Passive shows that a permanent EVENT has happened to the believer. The believer fulfills no conditions in a passive voice. The permanent results of the perfect tense cannot be undone without another declarative sentence to the contrary. The Bible has many such verses affirming the eternal results of historic faith.

Forgiveness of sins is linked with inheritance and permanent sanctification by faith (Acts 26:18). Clearly, since sanctification is a permanent EVENT, so also is inheritance and forgiveness. Believers are sanctified by God's Spirit (Rom. 15:16) in Christ (I Cor. 1:2). Believers have been permanently set aside through Christ's offering (Heb. 10:10). God has "perfected forever" those who are being cleansed (Heb. 10:14). Christians have been sanctified and perfectly preserved by God the Father in Jesus Christ (Jude 1). Paul links the (aorist) EVENT of justification with the (aorist) EVENT of sanctification (I Cor. 6:11). EVENT justification is a virtual synonym for EVENT sanctification.

Sanctification is a present PROCESS in which Christ sanctifies and cleanses His Church with the washing of the Word (Eph. 5:25-6) and prayer (I Tim. 4:5). Cleansing is needed for service to the Master (II Tim. 2:21). No doubt you can find lots more present tense verses here.

But this is exactly where your confusion begins Bob. Because you does not do complete lexical analysis, you wrongly assumes that the faith + obedience process is the only aspect of sanctification. It is a big mistake to take one definition and mindlessly apply it to every occurrence of sanctification.

The word run – the largest semantic domain in the English language – provides a good example of Bob's folly. Consider the following sentences.
__I run a race.
__My nose is running.

Confusion reigns if the definition of "run" from any sentence is put it into the other sentence! You, Bob, twist present tense faith + obedience process verses to imply conditional justification without understanding event sanctification.


Inseparable, Dependent & Distinct!
Proper theology is not always an {either/or} choice. One is not forced to pick a PROCESS over an EVENT or vice versa. Proper theology has many instances of {both/and} harmonization.[fn1]

Justification is the forensic EVENT by which God imputes Christ's righteousness to believers and establishes them in God's eternal covenantal family. Sanctification is God's ACTIVITY whereby:

(1) HE has separated the believer to Himself [John 10:36 (aor act), Acts 20:32 (perf pass), Acts 26:18 (perf pass), Rom. 15:16 (perf pass), I Cor. 1:2 (perf pass), I Cor. 6:11 (aor pass), Heb. 10:10 (perf pass), Heb. 10:14 (perf pass [fn2]), Heb. 10:29 (aor pass) and Jude 1 (perf pass)]. These EVENTS are predominantly in the perfect tense. Justification seals one's eternal destiny.

(2) HE works in the believer to bring us to perfection. These PROCESSES are predominantly in the present tense. Sanctification determines one's ever changing rewards.

Errant hermeneutics only sees the latter verses. Because of lexical ignorance, BobRyan confuses justification with sanctification and destiny with rewards.

The verses presented on justification when combined with sanctification show justification and sanctification are inseparable. Sanctification depends on justification yet is distinct from it.


Harmony
True biblical harmony is achieved by acknowledging that both sets of verses are true – in different applications. Justification is an historic EVENT that leads to eternal destiny. Sanctification is both the historic EVENT of separation unto God's kingdom and the present PROCESS of faith + obedience leading to purification and heavenly rewards.

Believers have been "perfected" while they are "being sanctified" (Heb. 10:14). "Perfected" refers to the historic EVENT of justification while "being sanctified" refers to the present PROCESS of sanctification.

Believers are washed, sanctified and justified at the same time (I Cor. 1:30, 6:11). While justification is strictly an historic EVENT that readily harmonizes with both historic and present sanctification.

Scripture interprets justification and sanctification in harmony. Error pits the Bible against itself in dishonor and confusion.

Lloyd

 

I take that as a "no I do not have any such proof for the Gospel apart from faith or even the obedience of faith that Paul speaks of".

So -- we agree at least on that point.

Justification past.

Agreed.

next.

Agreed.

That is another "section" of truth that you have.

Back to the point of my previous point "finally".

That there is in fact only ONE GOSPEL in ALL of the OT and NT and the fact that you were able to get that basic foundational truth.

I still think that is pretty amazing that you get that.

I affirm you for getting it. As Steaver notes - many people do not make that connection.

That much is correct.

The errors that follow on behalf of OSAS I am simply ignoring as they avoid the issue of Perseverance documented on this thread IN SCRIPTIURE (still).

The Bible is in perfect harmony as it points to Justification PAST AND the continued need to "PERSEVERE FIRM UNTIL THE THEN" with a big IF statement inserted by God Himself!!

Rather than dodging these texts to make what is left of the Bible fit OSAS - the Biblically faithful model is to EMBRACE them - as the Arminian position does.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You have just framed Christ's point to Nic at nite.

He is pressing the point with Nicodemus that as a teacher ofscripture he can not claim ignorance about the new birth. This is the pre-cross reality that Christ presses home with Nicodemus.

If he had said "some day we will have a new Gospel - a better Gospel - a Gospel that actually works! And then IN that new day - you will have to be born again instead of just trying to get to heaven as a legalist - not-regenerate and not actually born-again" -- then you would have the model that you believe in. In fact your model pretty much predicts that this is what we should be reading there.

The modern day Orthodox Jews belive Satan was a good angel, and they believe in eovlutionism no matter what the text of Genesis says.

It is not easy to suppose that the Jews of 2000 years ago held to the same level of error as modern jews.

One God - One Lord, One Faith -- One Gospel. God is "The SAME yesterday, today and forever".

"For this reason the Gospel was preached BEFORE HAND to Abraham" Gal 3:7.

"We have had the Gospel preached to US JUST as they also had" HEb 4:2.

It is all the same. That is why in Romans 11 the gentile Christians a grafted into the SAME PLACE from which the Jews fell -- in the ONE vine.

In Christ,

Bob

 

posted by Steaver:

The dispensation of the law is quite different than the dispensation of grace. Bob, as an SDA, believes (as the Jews believe) in the validity of the Law today). Thus his arguments for the keeping of the Sabbath--an impossibility in our culture, and other Old Testament observances. Jesus came, and at the cross fulfilled the Law.
During this day and age we live in the Church Age known also as the Age of Grace.

In the Old Testament God called out a nation to himself, the nation of Israel. The sign of that covenant made to Israel was the Sabbath Day. Even a cursorry reading of that chapter tells the reader that keeing the Sabbath was for the nation of Israel and their generations forever, and was never intended for the Gentile. The penalty for breaking the Sabbath day was death. If one was truly to keep the Sabbath Day, then he would have to kill those who didn't keep the Sabbath Day.

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

To be born into the nation of Israel was to be born into God's family. The sign of that birth into God's family was circumcision.

Now in the New Testament God is also calling out a nation for Himself:
1 Peter 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

God has called us (those that believe on Christ) to be a holy nation. The catch is that we have to be a part of his family. Like the Israelites we must be born into the family of God. Thus, as Jesus said, we must be born again.

Christ came to die on the cross. A new dispensation was beginning. Christ was ministering still primariy to the Jews, but every once and awhile he would reach out to the Gentiles as well. He said plainly in John 3:16 that his ministry would be to the whole world. He said in John 1:11, that he came to his own (the Jews), but they received him not. Then in verse 12, he says: "As many as received him to them gave he power to become the sons of God even to them that believe on his name." Verse 13 goes on to specify "even to those that are born...of God" Between these two sections John shows by way of illustration how to be born again, as he presents to us the discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus.

Three times in John three does Jesus say to Nicodemus: You must be born again. It is important. You must be born again. You cannot see the kingdom of God if you are not born again (3:3).
Nicodemus replies: "How can a man be born when he is old? Shall he enter into his mother's womb and be born a second time?" Clearly he was confused. He did not know what it meant to be born again. The term was foreign to him, and though he was a teacher of the Jews, we can well understand why it was foreign to him. Jesus was teaching something new. He had not heard this before.

Jesus patiently explains: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of the spirit is Spirit." There are two kinds of birth. One is physical--the one that we are all familiar with. That is how we all got into this world. Through a physical birth. The other is spiritual. You need to be born twice: physically and spiritually. This has nothing to do now with Nicodemus's Jewish heritage which he had so long put his trust in. He could no longer assume that he was going to heaven just because he was a Jew, no matter how devout he was. Just because he was physically born a Jew would not get him there. Now, he must be born of the Spirit. This is what he did not understand.
Jesus continues:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--First, note that the last thing that a Jewish Rabbi would have on his mind is baptism. This is not in the context, and it is not what Jesus is referring to. He could be referring to the water of the physical birth, but not likely.
The Jews had cerremonial washings. They could do almost nothing without washing first. Water is symbolic of cleansing. That is what it is used for.
But Jesus said:
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

It is the Word of God that cleanses you. The water itself had no power to clean. (Neither did baptism.) But the Word of God did. They were made clean through the Word of God.

James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
--"begat he us with the word of truth" or born again with the Word. The meaning is the same. We are born again by the Word of God. This is the teaching of the Word of God.

Peter makes it very plain:
1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
--How is one born again? By the Word of God! This is what Peter teaches. He got this teaching from Jesus.

Thus the teaching of Jesus was that a man must be born of the Word of God and of the Spirit of God, the two agents that are necessary for salvation. You cannot be born again without the Word of God (the gospel message), neither the Spirit of God. It is an impossiblity.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
--He presses home the point that Nicodemus must be born again. It is new teaching to him, because these concepts are not clearly taught in the Old Testament.
The reference to the wind is simply a reference to how the Holy Spirit works. He is a person. But we do not always know when he is coming; where he is coming from, and where he is going, and when he is going to appear. He works according to the providence of God. And as further revelation informs us, he often works through the power of prayer.

John 3:9-10 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
--This was a mild rebuke to Nicodemus. Now he does know these things. It is obvious that not even the rest of the Sanhedrin understood these things.
God works in different ways in different periods of history.
DHK