The Good News about Hell

For once we agree. The main meaning of the verb is not annihilation, but as you have quoted: to ruin the structure,
That certainly is not annihilation, not even by your own quote.
DHK

 

Although I never get an answer to this question, I guess I will ask it once again. How do you reconcile what you believe with the following scriptures?

Ps 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1-3 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

Luke 13:2-5 2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 Cor 1:17-18 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9-12 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.


Main Entryer£ish
Pronunciation:*per-ish, *pe-rish
Function:verb
Etymology:Middle English perisshen, from Anglo-French periss-, stem of perir, from Latin perire, from per- detrimentally + ire to go — more at PER-, ISSUE
Date:13th century

intransitive verb
1 : to become destroyed or ruined : cease to exist *recollection of a past already long since perished — Philip Sherrard* *guard against your mistakes or your attempts (perish the thought) to cheat — C. B. Davis*
2 chiefly British : DETERIORATE, SPOIL
transitive verb
1 chiefly British : to cause to die : DESTROY
2 : WEAKEN, BENUMB

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Do not fear those who DESTROY the BODY but are unnable to "destroy" the soul (Matt 10)

Is it your position that a BODY that is DESTROYED -- can not be taken past the point of "failure to operate well?" and in fact is NOT utterly turned back into dust!!!???

OR - are you trying to avoid the problem that JUST as the body is "really destroyed" in that way - God is claiming the SOUL will be "destroyed" by God IN THE SAME complete sense that TODAY we can SEE the body "destroyed" when someone dies.

The body of the dead DOES INDEED return to DUST.

You may not consider that "annihilation" but many others would!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

"But others would" And others are wrong, according to the Scriptures.
First, all will be resurrected. There are two resurrections. One resurrection applies to believers. Surely you are well acquainted enough with church history to know that many Godly Bible-believers were burned at the stake and their ashes thrown into the rivers and scattered by the Catholic Church. These ashes God will raise in the first resurrection and they will stand before God in a glorified body. God is a God of the impossible.

In the same way, at the second resurrection, the resurrecion of the damned, God will raise the unsaved dead from the dust of the earth, as he says he will, to stand before the Great White Throne Judgement, and receive their final sentence. This is only possible if they receive a new body. Ashes don't stand before God. A body does. A new body given to them by God. A body that will be able to withstand the fires of eternal torment--to suffer eternally and yet not be consumed. This is the teaching of Revelation 20:10-15. You can choose to believe its teaching or to refuse it. The choice is yours.
DHK

 

Still waiting for an answer.

 

Revelation 20 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Verses one through three, are referring of course to the leader of the lost, Satan himself. During this thousand year period, Satan is bound in the bottomless pit. We will discuss just what the bottomless pit is after we finish with the thousand year period. Not only is Satan bound during this thousand years, but he is not able to deceive the nations anymore during this same time. The scriptures themselves will tell us why this is so.

Verse four, switches the topic to that of the saved during this same thousand years. It states that the judgment was given unto them. The saints then, are involved in the work of judgment during this thousand year period. Paul makes reference to this event in 1 Corinthians.

I Corinthians 4 5 Therefore judge nothing before the time,until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

I Corinthians 6 2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

Of course this judgment cannot be about who will, or will not have eternal life. This question has already been answered, since the saved are in heaven with Christ judging the world. This is why the saints are caught up in the air to meet Christ when He returns, and will ever be with Him. During this thousand years, the saints are in heaven with Christ who has taken them there. Later, the wicked will surround the beloved city, or New Jerusalem, apparently after it descends from heaven down to earth (Rev. 21:1-5), at the end of the thousand years.

The judgment that the saints are involved in is apparently for the purpose of understanding why, or why not, certain people are, or are not in heaven with the saved. No doubt God will answer all the questions of the saints during these thousand years. Surely there will be questions from the saints regarding who is, and who is not there. In the end though, every knee will bow and confess that Christ is the righteous judge of all.

Verse five points out that the rest of the dead, that is those who were not saved, did not live again until the thousand years were finished. Then it says that this is the first resurrection. That is not to say that the rest of the dead not living again for a thousand years is the first resurrection, for this would make no sense at all. But rather, that those who were involved in judging the world during this thousand years were part of the first resurrection, that is, the resurrection of the saved.

Verse six says that those who are saved and take part in the first resurrection are blessed and holy. It also points out that the second death will have no power over them. For them, death has been swallowed up in victory, in and through their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. They shall be priests of God and reign with Him during this thousand year period.

Verses seven through fifteen point out what will happen to the wicked at the end of this thousand year period. This begins with Satan being let loose again to deceive the nations. In order for this to take place, the lost who have been dead during this thousand year period (verse 5), must be resurrected. Thus having died once already, at Christ’s second coming (Luke 17:28-30, 2 Th. 2:8, Rev. 6:14-17), they will die again, the second death, when they come up on the beloved city with their leader, Satan. That both the saved, and the wicked will be resurrected, was pointed out by Christ Himself when here on earth.

John 5 28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

The resurrection of life is at the beginning of the thousand years. The resurrection of damnation is at the end of the thousand years.

So now, the wicked surround the beloved city, and fire comes down from God, and devours them (verse 9). This is the lake of fire, where the Devil, and the Beast, and the False prophet are. It is where all those whose names are not written in the book of life will end up, and die the second death (verses 13-15). The book of life, from which all these people were judged, must be the book that the saints were examining during this thousand year period. This would be the judgment that they were involved in (verses 11&12).

Now to the definition of the bottomless pit into which Satan was cast. The definition of which, will reveal that the lost are dead during this thousand year period. Let us look at some scriptures to see what a bottomless pit might represent.

Job 17 13 If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness. 14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm, Thou art my mother, and my sister. 15 And where is now my hope? as for my hope, who shall see it? 16 They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.

Psalm 30 3 O LORD, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive,that I should not go down to the pit.

Proverbs 1 11 If they say, Come with us, let us lay wait for blood, let us lurk privily for the innocent without cause: 12 Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:

Isaiah 38 17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back. 18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Jeremiah 41 7 And it was so, when they came into the midst of the city, that Ishmael the son of Nethaniah slew them, and cast them into the midst of the pit, he, and the men that were with him.

9 Now the pit wherein Ishmael had cast all the dead bodies of the men, whom he had slain because of Gedaliah, was it which Asa the king had made for fear of Baasha king of Israel: and Ishmael the son of Nethaniahfilled it with them that were slain.


In the bible, a pit is very often associated with the grave, or a place to put the dead. A bottomless pit then, would undoubtedly represent an enormous grave, filled with countless people. If the bible then, tells us that all the lost will be slain when Christ returns the second time, which it does, then this world would be one massive grave, with the dead bodies of countless millions strewn all over it. This is in fact where Satan is bound for this thousand years, while the saved are in heaven going over the book of life, he is here with nothing but the dead. Thus Satan can no longer deceive the nations during this thousand years, for there are no nations, or peoples to deceive. Jeremiah speaks of the world in this condition.

Jer 25: 30 Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the LORD hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the LORD.
32 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, Behold, evil shall go forth from nation to nation, and a great whirlwind shall be raised up from the coasts of the earth.
33 And the slain of the LORD shall be at that day from one end of the earth even unto the other end of the earth: they shall not be lamented, neither gathered, nor buried; they shall be dung upon the ground.

Jer 4: 23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.
25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.
26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by his fierce anger.

Isaiah not only spoke of this condition of the earth, but prophesied of the very things we are discussing.

Isaiah 14 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. 16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms; 17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners? 18 All the kings of the nations, even all of them, lie in glory, every one in his own house. 19 But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet. 20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.

Though all the kings, and people will be slain, yet Satan will not join them in burial. Though he be in the pit with them, the bottomless pit, yet he will not be given the rest of the sleep of the dead. He will live for a thousand years alone with no one to deceive, and nothing to do but ponder the effects of the works of his own hands. Ever looking forward to the judgment, and his destruction at the end of the thousand years.

Isaiah 24 18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. 22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited. 23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.

Here again, Isaiah is referring to the destruction of the earth, and the death of the wicked. When the wicked are gathered together in the pit, that is dead, and shut up in death as in prison (Job3:11-18, Isa. 53:8), then they will be visited after many days. That many days would be the thousand years that we are discussing, and it will not be well for them when they are visited.

Revelation 21 7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. 9 And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. 10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; 12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. 14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21 And the twelve gates were twelve pearls: every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass. 22 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. 23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. 24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. 25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it. 27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

I want to be in that city, don’t you.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Do not fear those who DESTROY the BODY but are unnable to "destroy" the soul (Matt 10)

Is it your position that a BODY that is DESTROYED -- can not be taken past the point of "failure to operate well?" and in fact is NOT utterly turned back into dust!!!???

OR - are you trying to avoid the problem that JUST as the body is "really destroyed" in that way - God is claiming the SOUL will be "destroyed" by God IN THE SAME complete sense that TODAY we can SEE the body "destroyed" when someone dies.

The body of the dead DOES INDEED return to DUST.

You may not consider that "annihilation" but many others would!!
</font>[/QUOTE]

Fine - then "SHOW" how Christs claim that MAN can DESTROY the body (i.e. burning the saints at the stake etc) DOES NOT in fact "annhiliate" the body!!

Since you claim that DESTROY must only mean "decrease effective activity" or something like that - SHOW that this is all that is done when the saint's bodies here - are DESTROYED!

Christ claims they CAN DESTROY the body but not the soul.

Indeed both are resurrected but that is NOT because bodies "Were not DESTROYED" as is incredibly obvious from any observatoin of "DUST TO DUST" that takes place at death.

If God did not supernaturally BRING THEM BACK from nothingness - they would remain DUST!

How much more obvious can it be?

The DESTROYED state is full and complete!

If the soul is to be DESTROYED as fully as you admit the body is obviously DESTROYED (dust to dust) THEN it would take a supernatural act of God to RESURRECT the soul to bring it BACK after such a destruction JUST as is the case with the physical body.

You claim immortal bodies for the wicked in your statement below

The text of Matt 10 says "DESTROY BOTH BODY and soul in hell fire". So although the body is raised BOTH are DESTROYED according to the text.

And the destruction is fully as complete as the "DESTROY the BODY" type destruction ALSO mentioned in the SAME context for "THIS LIFE" when the wicked DESTROY the body of the saints.

In Christ,

Bob

[ October 16, 2005, 01:17 AM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

You seek to make the text says "God is NOT going to DESTROY BOTH body and soul in HELL fire the way the wicked DESTROY the body of the saints. RAther God will ENABLE the wicked with IMMORTAL BODIES to live FOREVER in hell rather than being DESTROYED either in body OR in soul".

What you need the text to say is very far from what it DOES say!

You even go so far as to say "NOT CONSUMED".

But what does the BIBLE SAY??

You said "Fire will NOT consume them" because God enables them with new better bodies able to withstand the fire and NOT be consumed!!

What a contrast!

In Christ,

Bob

 

The text of Matt 10 says "DESTROY BOTH BODY and soul in hell fire". So although the body is raised BOTH are DESTROYED according to the text.

And the destruction is fully as complete as the "DESTROY the BODY" type destruction ALSO mentioned in the SAME context for "THIS LIFE" when the wicked DESTROY the body of the saints.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Don't you love science? "Matter can neither be created nor "destroyed," meaning annihilated. There is no such concept in the Bible. Ashes will not stand before God. A resurrection always refers to a body, whether it be in the resurrection of the just, or in the resurrection of the unjust--it is the resurrection of the body that will stand before God (Rev.20:11-15). From ashes resurrected bodies will stand before God.

You have a problem with the definition of "soul" and your theology of such gets in your way of eternal damnation. The words "soul" and "spirit" are sometimes used interchangeably and sometimes not. The word "soul" sometimes refers to the entire person, as in: "The soul that sinneth shall surely die." Here it does not simply refer to the spiritual side of man, nor the mind, but the whole person. It is the idiomatic way of referring to a person. "Oh, you poor soul!"
However, in 1Thes.5:23 Paul uses all three terms: soul, spirit, and body in one verse, differentiating betweeen the three. We are made in the image and likeness of God, and part of that likeness is that we are tripartite beings--soul, spirit and body. We have a spirit that will never die--in heaven or in hell. But the soul is the seat of affections, the will, the brain. Thus the body and soul (brain) dies (is rendered inoperable) until the day of the resurrection. But the spirit lives on, either in hell or in heaven. In the great White Throne Judgement, that body will be raised with its brain intact, a glorified body able to have its senses operable again, and will indeed feel the horrible effects of the eternal Lake of Fire, as it indicates in verse 15 of Rev. 20. To deny that is to deny the Word of God. What does it mean to be "tormented day and night for ever and ever?" That sounds fairly clear to me. So shall it be for those whose names are not written in the Book of Life--the unsaved.
DHK

 

So Christ says "Those who DESTROY the body but not the soul" and you say "oh NO Jesus - you are technically incorrect -- they can not DESTROY the Body not if we define the word a certain way"??

How is that helping to make your case?

In Christ,

Bob

 

The body of the saints AND the body of the wicked in this life "Dust RETURNS TO DUST".

This is what GOD says - you seem to object.


God says "THEY CAN DESTROY the Body but not the soul" you say "oh no they can't NOT if we define DESTROY a certain way". Playing word games with the text to make the text "wrong" DHK?? Why go there? How does that help your case?

IF we accept DESTROY as the obvious meaning "the body DOES indeed return to DUST" and is DESTROYED -- then When God declares He can in LIKE MANNER - DESTROY the Soul -- that destruction is AS COMPLETE as turning a human body to ashes.

So your argument fails right there - at the start.

How do you solve the problem?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob you have lost this argument before you started it.
There are two resurrections. Correct?
One for the saved, and one for the unsaved, Right?
When the body dies (whether saved or unsaved) it returns to dust). We agree here don't we. It doesn't matter who you are, your body returns to dust.

In the resurrection of the just, what is going to be raised? It will be the "dust" of the saved--those same atoms that formerly composed that body and then will be changed into a glorified body able to stand before Christ and enter into heaven. This is the first resurrection. So we shall ever be with the Lord. Agreed?

BTW, resurrection always, always refers to the body. It cannot refer just to the spirit as the JW's teach. A spirit resurrection is no resurrection at all. It is a contradiction of terms. Resurrection can only apply to the body.

Thus we come to the resurrection of the unjust--the unsaved. It takes place one thousand years after the first resurrection, and all unsaved at that time will stand before the Great White Throne Judgement, receiving their resurrected bodies, and also receiving their just sentence of eternal condemnation from God. The second resurrection will be a resurrection. The dust or ashes of bodies will be raised to become those same bodies joining those same spirits once again. That is what a resurrection is. A resurrection always refers to a body. Flesh and blood cannot enter into heaven, cannot see God and live. The body in some sense will be a glorified body, a changed body--changed that it will live forever in the lake of fire. Thus you might say it will be enduring eternal death. Death is separation--separation from God for all eternity. It is not annihilation.
DHK

 

Ecclesiastes 9 4For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun. 7Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Main Entry:death
Pronunciation:*deth
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English deeth, from Old English d*ath; akin to Old Norse dauthi death, deyja to die — more at DIE
Date:before 12th century

1 a : a permanent cessation of all vital functions : the end of life — compare BRAIN DEATH b : an instance of dying *a disease causing many deaths*
2 a : the cause or occasion of loss of life *drinking was the death of him* b : a cause of ruin *the slander that was death to my character — Wilkie Collins*
3 capitalized : the destroyer of life represented usually as a skeleton with a scythe
4 : the state of being dead
5 a : the passing or destruction of something inanimate *the death of vaudeville* b : EXTINCTION
6 : CIVIL DEATH
7 : SLAUGHTER
8 Christian Science : the lie of life in matter : that which is unreal and untrue : ILLUSION
–at death's door : close to death : critically ill
–to death : beyond endurance : EXCESSIVELY *bored to death*

 

Ah, the old Ecclesiatic's trick!--the cults' favorite book. Tell me the context of the entire book, and then get back to me on what you are trying to prove through this book.
DHK

 

Genesis 2 8And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed. 9And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. 10And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads. 11The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold; 12And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone. 13And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia. 14And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates. 15And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.


Genesis 3 1Now the serpent was more subtle than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.


Romans 6 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?


God said that we would die. Satan says that we will not. You have chosen to beleive the Devils first lie to humanity. You not only believe it, but you promote it. There is nothing left for those who choose to believe a lie, but to be decieved. I leave you to follow the master that you have chosen to believe.


2 Thessalonians 2 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


The doctrine of the immortality of the soul is the foundation of spiritualism, and one of the many false doctrines of the Church of Rome. Because of this false doctrine, countless billions of people are decieved into looking to the dead for salvation. Sadly, they will find no such thing.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

It is one of the foundational doctrines of the Scriptures. To ignore it you have to run circles around dozens of passages of the Bible: ignore them, deny them, twist and pervert them, and just downright disbelieve what the Bible says on the topic.
DHK

 

Here is a list of some of the scriptures that contradict what you believe.

The following verses indicate that the dead have no thoughts, they are in a state similar to sleep.

Eccl 9:5-6 "5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."
Eccl 9:10 "10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Ps 115:17 "17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."

Surely if the dead were conscious, and in heaven they would be praising God.

Ps 146:3-4 "3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

1Thes 4:13-17 "13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

The point of the above verses is that without the resurrection there is no hope for those who have fallen asleep, or died in Christ. They will receive their reward of eternal life, when the Lord returns, as the next verse indicates.

John 6:39-40 "39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."

1 Cor 15:51-54 "51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

Those who are in Christ will receive immortality at His second coming, at the last trump, not at their death.

Luke 8:52-55 52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but
sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.

John 11:11-14 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus
sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.(KJV)
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Jesus referred to the dead as sleeping, because the dead are referred to as sleeping all through the scriptures.

Ps 13:3 3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

IKing 2:10-11 10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
11 And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.

IKing 11:43 43 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.

IKing 14:20 20 And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.

IKing 14:31 31 And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.

IKing 15:8 8 And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chr 21:1 1 Now Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.

2 Chr 26:23 23 So Uzziah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the field of the burial which belonged to the kings; for they said, He is a leper: and Jotham his son reigned in his stead.

Job 7:21 21 And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.

Job 14:10-12 10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Dan 12:2 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Matt 27:52-53 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Acts 7:59-60 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

2 Pet 3:4 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.

Acts 2:29-36 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

If the dead go straight to heaven or hell at death, then why hadn't David ascended to heaven yet at the time of Christ?

Here are some verses about the wicked perishing. That is coming to a complete end, a state of none existence.

Ps 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1-3 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Ps 73:27 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.

Ps 112:10 10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.

Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

Luke 13:2-5 2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 10:28 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

1 Cor 1:17-18 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

II Th 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9-12 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Jude 1:7 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Brother, as the above verse indicates, the result of eternal fire is annihilation. Sodom and Gomorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, and they were totally consumed, they no longer exist.

Mal 4:1-6 1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.

Ezek 28:11-22 11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The above prophecy is concerning Satan. It addresses his creation, his former position, and the fact that he was created perfect. It also points out his fall, the reason for it, and the end results of it. Satan will be destroyed. He will be devoured, and brought to ashes in the sight of men. The prophecy ends with these words concerning Satan, " never shalt thou be any more." This is unquestionably pointing out a complete end for Satan.

Rev 21:4 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

How can these things have passed away, if there are billions of people in hell experiencing these very things?

I Jn 5:11-12 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The above verse is the bottom line brother. He who has the Son has life, He who does not have the Son does not have life. Those who reject Christ will perish. The final judgment is by fire, and it's effects will be eternal non existence. The overwhelming majority of scripture supports this truth.


2 Pet 3:4-7 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

2 Pet 3:10-12 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


I have presented a list. Please do explain all of the above scriptures in the context of what you believe regarding the state of the dead, and their final end.


Please do also, give me a list of all those scriptures that you say I must be ignoring in order to believe what I do. Then I can give an explanation of the apparent contradictions. Who knows, we might just both learn something.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Kieth

 

Keith --

That is quite a list ...

But why believe those texts? Why don't you just "run circles around those textx? ignore them, deny them, twist and pervert them, and just downright disbelieve what the Bible says on the topic."

Bob

 

You left out a KEY text --

Rev 14:10 the wicked will suffer in torment "IN the presence of the LAMB AND of His Holy ones" -- the entire event takes place IN the presence of the saints who are ALWAYS with the Lamb wherever He goes!!

That is right - you will be there for every moment of suffering endured by your loved one!

In Christ,

Bob

 

I tend to ignore long lists of Scripture. They really don't say anything, except that there are a bunch of verses taken out of context and it would take too much bandwith to try and answer such a post. Try just a few, and I mean a very few verses at a time in order to have a fruitful discussion.
DHK