The Good News about Hell

I find your comments troubling, though I'm sure you don't care. However I think these are important verses that need to be dealt with.

You seemed to have a closed mind and won't even consider the possibility nor deal with the reasoning behind the conditionalists views. You just want to call it "cultish". I come from the Baptist faith so I understand the objection to this view, however I started studying this subject with an open mind and heart accidently when studying the tree of Life. There are very good arguments for the conditionalist view. You say it is just a bunch of verses taken out of context, but the same could be said of the traditional view.

I have tried to get satifactory answers on why conditionalism is wrong so I could dismiss it from my mind and move on, however the more I learn the less I am convinced of the traditional view. It seems your argument boils down to the passage in Revelation that deals with resurrection, and that somehow proves the lost have immortality. Sorry, but I think it will take much more than that to convince an honest skeptic who is trying to deal with this subject.

All we can do is keep studying and challenging our beliefs and make sure they come from scripture and not Plato or any other man or denominational creed. Who knows, perhaps I will learn you were right after all. But I've got to know for myself through my own study in order to be confident it is biblical. If it makes be a cultist then so be it. Many have already put me there with my preterist views anyway.

 

Amen Grasshopper. There is no salvation in any denomination, but only in Christ Jesus. He is the WORD OF GOD. To study the scriptures to know the truth, is to study Christ to know the truth. It is the truth that will set us free, and Christ is the way, the truth, and the life.

2 Timothy 2 15Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. 16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Revelation 19 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

John 8 31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.


Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

In the Bible - the Christians are called "A sect" by the Jews. In the NT those of the reformation were called "heretics" by the Catholic church exterminating those who opposed it.

In todays world - the popular groups are still at no loss of "pejorative terms" for those who differ with them.

Simply looking at a derogatory term with fear and exchanging the truth of God's Word for "favor with the masses" will meet with no more spiritual "success" today than in all of history.

Stick with the Bible Grasshopper and all will be well in the end.

Take a look at Keith's list above. IT is a good one.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I don't think you get my point. Kamoroso posted 43 verses (passages)--only if I counted right. I am not going to waste my valuable time going through 43 passages, refuting every one of them. The post would be too long to post. It would end up being about five posts allowable in length (approximately I am guessing). That is not a profitable discussion. Take a passage or two (not 43 of them!!!!!!!!!!) and then we will discuss them. I hope you get my drift now. I am not unwilling to discuss the subject. I am unwilling to discuss it in the way that Kamoroso has it posted. It is a discussion (or debate), not a battle of who can list the most verses.

On another note, it is for a similar reason that I won't answer most of Claudia's posts--length of post.
DHK

 

DHK, I made that list, in response to your accusation, that I had to ignore dozens of scriptures in order to believe what I believe. I gave you a list of scriptures that I was not ignoring, and that you apparently are. You offer no explanation for them, nor do you supply the dozens of scriptures that you are talking about, that I am contradicting.

We want what we believe to be firmly based upon the scriptures, built upon the rock if you will. Not on the sinking sand of what this or that person thinks. While you may be satisfied to just tell someone that what you believe is backed up with dozens of scriptures, I am not. God’s word is more powerful than I could ever even imagine being. I will always prefer to allow it to talk for itself as much as possible, with as little interference as possible from my feeble mind.

Hebrews 4 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

You'll have to do better than that. There is not one of those Scriptures that either prove that there is no eternal punishment or disprove the doctrine of eternal punishment of the wicked. That is why I challenge you to state your case--one or two passages at a time. Listing a bunch of verses does nothing. None of those verses help you unless you can explain how.
DHK

 

I offer two texts.

One from Matt 10 and one from Rev 14.

In Matt 10 Christ goes beyond simply "kill" -- He goes to the point of "destroy" --

In Rev 14 we see that the saints will be right there IN the presence of the Lamb - and will be there to witness the torment of the wicked IN THE PRESENCE of the LAMB!

So the two points are FIRST - that the wicked are DESTORYED -- both in physical body AND in soul in hell fire, and SECOND that this all takes place in the immediate presence of the Lamb and those with the Lamb (which are the saints according to Rev 14:1-6)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob I'm comming in late on this topic, but are you saying that after a while the wicked will be destroyed into nothingness (sp?) and not suffer, but only for a while and then thats it....like they have been totaly wiped out and no longer exsist?

(My appologies if this has been asked before but 5 pages are alot to weed through.)

 

Man is able to kill the body. He is unable to kill, harm, destroy, or touch the soul in any way. Here is one instance where the soul is used interchangeably with the spirit. Jesus is speaking of the spiritual part of man, that part of man that will live forever--both in the saved and in the unsaved. He made each and every man a spiritual being just like the angels in heaven. Man is not like the animals. He is of a greater order. He is a spirit being clothed with a fleshly body for a temporary period of time. Someday he will shed that fleshly body (2Cor.5:1-5). The spirit, both saved and unsaved will live forever. The spirit's bodies, both saved and unsaved will be raised again in two separate resurrections.
Man is not able to kill the soul, or do anything to it. It is not in his sphere to do so.

But rather fear God who is able to who is able to "destroy" both body and soul in hell.
That the destruction here does not refer to annihiliation is quite obvious. Though the body will return to ashes (2nd law of Thermodynamics) it will never be destroyed, nor can it be. It is just changed to another substance awaiting the resurrection. Then at the resurrection the body will be raised. It will be raised in such a way that it will be able to stand before the Amighty presence of our Holy God, something it could not do in its earthly body without immediately dying. Thus the body of the unsaved will have changed to some degree. It will also be a different body, just as the saved body will be different in its glorified state. The "dead" will stand before God. The dead will be united with their spirit--that very spirit which had previously been in Hell, some for centuries. They will all--both spirit and body together stand before God. This is what a resurrection is. What do you define a resurrection as? The resurrection always refers to the body--always!
The DEAD will stand before God--The dead--their bodies united with their spirits, standing before a holy and righteous God, awaiting their final sentence of eternal punishment of being cast into the Lake of Fire where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev.20:10,15). There is no more clearer teaching on the subject than that. "Shall be tormented day and night forever and ever" What do you think those words mean???
No one can annihilate a spirit. God created spirits to last forever. And they do. Spirits are not annihilited. See Jude 6,7. They will suffer eternal punishment, but they will not be annihiliated. That is an impossibility. The word means to render inoperable, as the fallen angels in Genesis 6 were when they were cast into outer darkness, put into chains, awaiting their sentence of eternal judgement. They will not be annihilated but suffer eternal punishment. They are still suffering for their sin of abomination with strange flesh in the days of Noah. And they will suffer eternally. We also are spirit beings. And the unsaved will suffer eternally for the rejection of the Son of God. To destroy does not mean to annihilate.

So what is your point? Whether the saints are present to witness the Great White Throne Judgement or not is irrelevant. It is a red herring. Your use of the passage in Rev.14 is also out of context. It is directed to those that are on earth. Look again:

9. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, [b["If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,[/b]
10. The same shall dring of the wine of the wrath of God whichi s pored without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence fo the lamb."

I see no contradiction in what I have already said. The dead will be judged. They will be sentenced to eternal punishment in the Lake of fire forever. There is nothing in the Bible that contradicts that.
DHK

 

Yes I am saying that God is not going to supernaturally perpetuate sin, rebellion, blasphemy and cursing.

I am saying I believe in Rev 14:10 that all the torment of the wicked takes place IN the presence of the Lamb and of those with the Lamb.

I am saying I believe in Matt 10 that says that JUST as people today DESTROY the body of the saints but are unnable to DESTROY the soul -- so God is able to DESTROY Both body and soul in fiery hell.

I am saying that the Arminian "future scenario" has a workable ending.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Since "I mentioned" the Arminian Future Scenario - might as well post it --

Some (Calvinists) have argued that plugging our doctrine into the future scenario to see what we are really saying about God - is not valid since our doctrines may not always fare well in that exposed light of day. So we now plug that same set of conditions and variables that determined the Calvinist future scenario – into an Arminian Future Scenario. Using the same conditions simplifies the “contrast and compare” exercise between Calvinist principles and Arminian ones.

Lets try the Arminian view of the future - where you go to heaven as one of the "FEW" and find that your precious child was one of the "MANY" of Matt 7.

(Note: The obvious premise points.
1. There is a God,
2. there will be a day of judgment,
3. not everyone is going to heaven.
So we would then have the following scenario - that you might "expect" if the doctrines of Grace as seen in the Arminian teachings are true..).

</font>[/QUOTE]Oh what wonderful Grace! What unbiased impartial Love! What sacrifice lavished upon both the saved AND the Lost!

Of course the Calvinist may say of the Arminian God that we see pictured here "OH how TERRIBLE! How AWFUL" that God would "ALLOW selfless concern for our lost children EVEN for a moment once we are in heaven" (as some have said)... or that "God would LOVE our lost children" (As others have said) -- But I know that "not many" will do so - even among Calvinists because the comparison is obvious - blatant and clear.

</font>[/QUOTE]This goes to the "Loving God" calling the Saints to BE LIKE GOD in their attitude of love for others as well.

In Christ,

Bob

 

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True as Christ said in John 11 "Our friend Lazarus SLEEPS" and as Paul says in 1cor 15 "We shall not ALL SLEEP" in 1Thess 4 "Those who are asleep".

Though the body is quite dead and even being destroyed in the grave (ashes to ashes and dust to dust) but the soul is in the state Christ and Paul say it is in -- so wicked man does not have power over it.

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

AS for the Nature of Man "God ALONE possess immortality" 1Tim 4 and God said of mankind "NOW lest man eat from the tree of the garden and LIVE FOREVER" (as in live FOREVER in sin and rebellion) -- then God takes away access to the tree of life in Eden to prevent that.

Some have argued that God's plan failed. Wicked man will "LIVE FOREVER ANYWAY".

And that idea does not survive a close review of Matt 10.

Far from it. What IS obvious is that "destroy" REALLY does mean DESTROY! And not only this -- Christ argues this is a progression going BEYOND simply the fact of KILLING and he shows this in the case of the wicked killing the physical earthly body. So DESTROY is (as Luke also points out) NOT ONLY the total and complete concept of KILLING (applied now not just to the body BUT ALSO to the SOUL ) it is "destroy"!

God says "destroy" your argument is "No No God - not DESTROY the 2nd Law will stop you from that when it comes to both Body AND soul!".

I fail to see that as a Bible argument and I fail to see how Thermodynamics ever said anything about not being able to destroy a soul!

But EVEN in the realm of the physical it serves to note that the DUST that results from not just KILLING but also DESTROYING the body DOES NOT result in an "eternal functioning body that is impervious to attempts to destroy at and STILL functions with organs and systems in tact -- anyway" -- which is the definition of "destroy" that you are reaching for.

IN the realm of physical a body "in tact" but dead is KILLED. A body obliterated and turned to DUST is "destroyed".

If your claim is that God will not only KILL the soul but all that makes up the soul will ALSO be DESTROYED as the body is - reducing it to some more basic component parts not at all "a soul" any more than "dust is a body" -- then even there - I don't see how this gets you what you need here.

True and if God goes back on His word and at that future point decides NOT to KILL the body and soul And then DESTROY both body and soul in fiery hell - then it will survive as you seem to suppose -- due to the resurrection.

True "the Rest of the DEAD did not COME TO LIFE until AFTER the 1000 years are finished" Rev 20:4-5. This shows the time you are correctly identifying. The time when God brings the "Rest of the DEAD to LIFE" and they stand in that great white throne judgment.

At that time - in the future then --

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Rev 14:10 shows that the torment "day and night forever and ever" is IN The presence of the LAMB and of those WITH the LAMB!

It is a continual burning that continues for as along as the person being tormented remains alive. As long as they are NOT KILLED as long as they are NOT destroyed!.

But God WILL kill and even DESTROY them in that fiery hell predicted for the wicked!

Can you show any text in all of scripture saying that the evil angels were "killed" were "destroyed" and that "Kill and destroy" just mean place in a state of inconvenience and restriction?

I have never found such a text.

You also say that mankind has been given immortal souls, immortal spirits (even the wicked). Do you have a text saying "all mankind is immortal"?

No?

How about a text saying "all mankind has been given an immortal soul that even God can not kill or destroy -- or at least God WILL NOT kill or destroy! "??

In Christ,

Bob

 

So the two points are

FIRST - that the wicked are DESTORYED -- both in physical body AND in soul in hell fire, and

SECOND that this all takes place in the immediate presence of the Lamb and those with the Lamb (which are the saints according to Rev 14:1-6)

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]

Rev 14:10 does not mention the great white throne - although I agree that this is where the torment is meeted out. It specifically speaks to us being there with Christ FOR THE TORMENT that takes place IN HIS PRESENCE "Forever and ever" with "No rest day or night".

Rev 20 shows that this all takes place on earth.

God is showing the punishment of the wicked that is poured out in Rev 20 in form of fire and brimstone - and yes it is poured out 'on earth' upon the wicked as they have surrounded the camp of the saints (according to Rev 20) on earth.

As the punishment of eternal fire was ALSO poured out on Soddom and Gomorrah!

Eternal fire is what consumed Sodom and Gomorrah – they are exhibited as a perfect example of the “punishment of eternal fire”

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hell is in fact the Lake of fire and is composed of “fire and brimstone” – “eternal fire”.

1.
Eternal fire = Hell (fiery Hell). (Matt 18:8-9)
The final Judgment is one of “Eternal Fire” Jude 7 and Sodom shows that..

2.
The eternal fire sent to Sodom was in the form of “Fire and Brimstone: (Luke 17:2-30) and it will be JUST THE SAME in the judgment of Christ on the wicked.

3. The second Death is that Fire and Brimstone judgment sent upon the wicked after the millennium (Rev 21:8):

Eternal fire is what consumed Sodom and Gomorrah – they are exhibited as a perfect example of the “punishment of eternal fire”

Sodom and Gomorrah were Destroyed by “fire and brimstone”. So eternal fire is composed of fire and brimstone and the “destruction” it causes is exhibited by Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Lake of Fire is composed of “fire and brimstone” (The ultimate exhibit of the “punishment of eternal fire”.) This is the “second death” which is the punishment for sin “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life”

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