For those who speak in tongues...

atestring, DHK believes that all the gifts were for the initial church and passed away by about the time the Bible was completed. I think he would say that all the gifts were basically miraculous and had a purpose, which ran out when the Bible was complete.

That is a good, legitimate interpretation of scripture.

I lean toward just Healing, Miracles, Tonguges and Int. of tongues as having passed away. The rest of the gifts I call "service gifts" and believe they still operate in one way or another.

How you define "the perfect" is the key to which direction many people go.

DHK, please correct me if I mis-stated your view on the "gifts". I know I simplified it so much that I may have distorted your true thoughts on the issue.

In Christ,
Brian

 

Tam, I like hot chocolate better, can I smell that instead? (he he)


I thought I made a pretty good, simple case myself.


In Christ,
Brian

 

You are quite right Brian. That is the position that I have consistently taken--that each of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1Cor.12, in some way or another had a supernatural element to it--else why would it be called a "gift of the Spirit?" I just can't get away from that question, as puzzling as it may be. The spiritual gifts were supernatural gifts given by the Holy Spirit. I don't see how visiting the sick in the hospital, helping those in need, etc. is a supernatural gift. But in some way there was a gift of helps that had a supernatural element to it. It had to be different than those who have a "knack" or talent for helping out people today. It was a supernatural gift. How was it supernatural? I am really not sure. But those are my reasons, if that makes sense to you.
DHK

 

What some people need is a valid experience.

Most Christians who reject the gifts of the Holy Spirit today (or in history) do so because they have never seen anyone who they considered as credible using a gift of the Holy Spirit.

My history is growing up in a Southern Baptist church, and going to a conservative Christian college. After my first four years, I attended a charismatic church, where I saw valid demonstration of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I accepted the offer of the Holy Spirit to be involved in what He was doing. I went back to college, got married, and kept it a secret between me and the Holy Spirit what we had agreed to. It was 7 years after we were married that by accident my wife found out I was a closet charismatic.

(By the way, my definition of charismatic differs from most Baptists. It's not just about speaking in tongues, though tongues are included. It's about receiving all that the Holy Spirit has for me as a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ.)

Because I was credible to my wife, she also entered into all that the Holy Spirit had for her.

We were mentored by a Vineyard pastor for about 7 years. During this time, we saw many people who were healed from a variety of sicknesses. Some were healed instantly. Some were healed through process. All felt the love of the Lord Jesus.

We have continued to grow. We are currently members of a Southern Baptist church in our city. No, we are not trying to influence them to be like us. We are basically invisible to them. We have been assigned to this church by the Living God, because He loves them, just like He loves us.

What is amazing to me is this:
Because of what I know, I see a group of people (our church) who have accepted Jesus as their Savior. They remind of a group of people in the book of Acts.

Acts 19:1 While Apollos was at Corinth, Paul took the road through the interior and arrived at Ephesus. There he found some disciples 2 and asked them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
19:3 So Paul asked, "Then what baptism did you receive?"
"John's baptism," they replied.
19:4 Paul said, "John's baptism was a baptism of repentance. He told the people to believe in the one coming after him, that is, in Jesus." 5 On hearing this, they were baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 When Paul placed his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they spoke in tongues and prophesied. 7 There were about twelve men in all.

There are incredible needs in our church. And what I see is this:
Because the Holy Spirit gives gifts to each person, ( 1 Cor 12:11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.), every person in the Southern Baptist church I attend has at least one gift of the Holy Spirit. But these gifts are locked up in these people. The needs are great, and much of the help that they need is right with them. But because of their belief systems, they cannot use the gifts that they have been given; to have supernatural wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing, miracles, prophecy, discernment of spirits (incredibly needed in our day), and yes, tongues.

For anyone reading this, tongues are not the least of the gifts, they are the most accessible. Basically, if you want tongues, you can have them. If you don’t want them, it’s most likely that you won’t get them. I know this will make some pretty mad, but that’s the way I see it, from what the Holy Spirit has taught me.

My wife and I have been privileged that the Holy Spirit has allowed us to use most of the gifts at one time or another. We are not special. We have not appeared on TV. We are not taking a collection. We are invisible to most people. But we occasionally get to see the love of the Living God in action. Like this last Monday night. A lady visited us in our weekly prayer meeting, and we prayed for her after the prayer meeting. (Our 13 year old son joins us in our prayer meetings, and he is growing greatly in using the gifts of the Holy Spirit.) Several of the gifts were used; wisdom, knowledge, faith, healing. Basically, through this encounter, this lady was greatly encouraged to go forward in her walk with the Lord Jesus.

You will find many in this forum who do not accept that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are for our generation. You can be a Christian and believe this. But for those who are seeking, let the Holy Spirit know that you want all that He has for you. You won’t be disappointed. Expect the Holy Spirit to gift you with the gifts that He gives, just like He did in the first century.

 

Brian,

Oh no. I didnt mean that at all. I dont think you, DHK or anyone else are dense. You guys are obviously very bright. I apologise if I've come across that way. I just believe you guys are placing too much confidence in what you have been taught.

In order to find out what is being discussed in 1 Cor 14 one does not need to look at the greek, the hebrew, the aramaic, or study whether a letter is capitalised or not. The context is crystal clear. When God through Paul 1st starts giving us this wisdom He starts by saying in verse 1...

"Pursue love, and desire spiritual gifts, and especially that you prophesy. For he who speaks in a tongue..."

He is clearly referring the same gifts of the Spirit being spoken of by Christ in Mark...

"And these signs will follow those who believe. In My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues..." etc.

...and also earlier in 1 Corinthians in Ch 12.

The context does not change anywhere during these passages we are reading from.

And as I have posted Paul is clearly saying that both praying in a tongue privately and interpreting tongues in a group are good things.

"14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak men but to God, for no one understands him"

"14:15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."

"14:16 Otherwise, if you bless with the spirit, how will he who occupies the place of the uninformed say "Amen" at your giving of thanks, since he does not understand what you say?"

"14:17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified."

To praise God and give thanks in a personal tongues prayer language is good, for "you indeed give thanks well", but its not the best in a gathered body situation.

God bless,

Mike

 

Qwerty,

Nice post.

God bless,

Mike

 

Just wanted to echo the sentments of D28Buy!!

Nice post qwerty!!



Peace,

Tam

 

Do you just pick and choose what you want to believe?

 

Hi atestring, No I really don't just pick and choose. I study God's word, read commentaries, learn here and from my pastor and then make conclusions. I must admit I bounce around between the what DHK has said and what John MaCarther teaches. Both have valid arguments and so my search goes on. I am still a CHILD of God, even at 43 years old. I am still searching and growing. I hope to be mature someday. My wife would argue against that possibility (ha ha) but I strive forward as I run the race set before me. Anyway, I must admit that beyond a pastor that can really teach and preach it is hard to see a manifestation of s "spiritual gift" instead of God just using people with the talents and skills they posess. Like governments (administrations). Some people are just good leaders at anything, not just within the church. Anyway, I am still praying and studying for proper perspective.

What I know for sure from clear teaching is that Tongues, Int, of tongues, Healing and Miracles (as spiritual gifts) have served their purpose and passed away. That I am very certain of.

Querty, I appreciate the passion behind your post. What you described at the end does not sound like spiritual gifts being used but sounds like Christs's love being shown and shared. Love, as Paul points out is greater then anything else we can do. Why? because more people will be drawn into the Kingdom of God by Love then by the power displayed by a spiritual gift. That is why love will always remain and the gifts will cease. Love is forever, the gifts were never intended to be so.

Mike, I still think you are missing a crucial point in regards to the pray with understanding issue. Paul is not saying both parts are good. He is saying the opposite. He is saying this as I see it. "Hey folks, if I am going to take the time to use my very breath and speak, I am only going to do it if my audience and myself can understand what is being said" He is saying that gibberish was rampent in the Corinth church and it is worthless. Now the real gift is of use and was permitted in the gathered assembly at that time but ony a couple a service and only if an interpreter was there. In fact, they had to have known who had the gift to interpret for Paul to make that statement or else how would a tongue speaker know whether to speak or not. Paul said throughout that the true gift was fine, if used properly but that gibberish was always bad. Until you can see that there is a message for false tongue speakers here, I don't know if you will understand the text properly. Mike, please forgive me if that sounded prideful, sometimes in a debate format things sound worse then they are.

In Christian Love and Peace,
Brian

[ November 17, 2005, 09:14 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

Good post Briguy, people fail to remember that the letter to the Corinthians was a reprimand. He was letting them know where they are going wrong and how. The problem with the "desire spirtual gifts" verse, is that people desire them so much that they began to MAKE them mainfest. The members want them so bad that the make them happen.

I had a friend who attended a Charismatic church and told me about the first time he spoke in "tongues", he said he was in a group of people that were all encouraging him to speak and let the holy spirit enter him. He said he had no idea what to do so in order to not dissapoint he started to "speak". When he did all the people were very encouraging and ecstatic. Being young he thought he did something right because they all congratulated him. My experience has been the same. The tongues are not language, not infused with a foreign dialect, actually quite oppostite... people in the south have southern sounding tongues, people in the north northern sounding, people in Africa african sounding, and so on through out the world.

Paul says in COrinthians that tongues should not be spoken in a Christian gathering because there may be people who do not understand and will be frightened. He also says that true tongues will be edifying to the Lord. When the rare occasion happens that it is translated the translation goes something like this... "God is good, God is great, He is most Holy and deserving of our worship!" Forgive me if I am wrong but as Christians don't we already know this? Is that not what is preached from the pulpits? Why do we need someone speaking in gibberish to tell us something that we already know?

This has been my experience from visiting many Charismatic churches. I actually attended one for a while unbeknownst to me. I left when the pastor openly told parts of the congragation that they did not have the spirit in them because they were not filled with the "Holy Laughter". A "spiritual gift" phenomenon that started in Florida some years back.

 

quote by Brian:
-------------------------------------------------
Mike, I still think you are missing a crucial point in regards to the pray with understanding issue. Paul is not saying both parts are good. He is saying the opposite. He is saying this as I see it. "Hey folks, if I am going to take the time to use my very breath and speak, I am only going to do it if my audience and myself can understand what is being said" He is saying that gibberish was rampent in the Corinth church and it is worthless.
-------------------------------------------------
I understand it as saying if your not using your gift/s with love then it is nothing. Jesus is love and if Jesus ain't in it then I don't want it. Remember the bible says in the last days there will be false prophets that will arise.....well then it goes to follow that there must be true prophets walking around also. How do you dicern them???? By their fruits! False prophets will not be doing anything out of love, There audence will probley be those with itchy ears to have a watered down version of the bible that will justify their sins (or even out of false prophets own greed try to make a person think if they give so much money they will get a blessing or healed) and even let them think they can get in heaven through a window instead of the straight and narrow gate. (Of course we all know that those people will be decieved) Jesus said in Luke 21:8
And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived: for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

 

Your reasoning is wrong, and unbiblical. It is the same reasoning that the Catholics use to teach infant baptism. The jailor (Acts 16) and all his household were saved. Thus (by inference) there were infants in the household that were baptized though it was impossible for them to believe. Your logic is exactly the same and just as unbiblical

Jesus said that in the end times false prophets woud arise--wolves in sheep's clothing. He warned what would become of them. He said that many in that day (of Judgement) would say Lord, Lord, have we not done many wonerful works in thy name..." But Jesus will say unto them: "Depart from me ye wicked into everlasting fire for I never knew you."
The issue is false prophets. Jesus doesn't say a word about "true prophets," and to infer such is absolutely wrong!
DHK

 

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
No man understands him; he speaks in mysteries. There was no edification. Period! It was not such a good thing after all was it.

1 Corinthians 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
--Edifying yourself (a selfish thing to do, and not the purpose of tongues) did the church no good. Tongues was a gift to the entire church, not just one individual. This is a contrast between tongues and prophecy all the way through. Tongues is bad; prophecy is good. Why? Prophecy edified the church; tongues did not. That is exactly what the verse said. It was a rebuke to speaking in tongues.
DHK

 

No, compare Scripture with Scripture. What was the foundation of the Church?

Ephesians 2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
--The foundation is the Apostles (writers of the New Testament; Prophets (writers of the Old Testament); with Jesus Christ being the chief corner stone--without which the foundation cannot even be built. In other words our foundation is built on the Word of God and Jesus Christ. When the Apostles passed of the scene there was no more need for spiritual gifts.

Hebrews 2:3-4 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

Look carefully at this verse:
...Savation ...was confirmed to us (the audience of the author of Hebrews, perhaps Paul), by them (the Apostles), that heard him, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles and gifts of the Holy Ghost."
How was the gospel confirmed? It was confirmed through the apostles by signs and wonders and miracles and spiritual gifts. The apostolic age has ceased, as these have also ceased as well. They are no longer needed just as we no longer have apostles to authenticate the word of God, and its message. It is all here in our Bible, a closed revelation, God's book for mankind today; A lamp unto my feet; a light unto my path. I need nothing more than His Word to guide me and teach me. The gifts have ceased with the Apostles. We have God's Word in its place.

 

As Brian explained, I don't believe that any of the first century supernatural gifts of the spirit (and they were all supernatural in one way or another) are for today. They have ceased. God gives us talents and abilities that we are to use for the Lord. At salvation he may give some a gift for preaching or teaching. But yet it is different than that which was given in the first century. Theirs was supernatural; our is not.
DHK

 

Good posts DHK. The problem is people fail to recognize the letter to the Corinthians in context was a reprimand, not an approval of what the were doing.

 

I beg to differ with you.

(maybe this time it will take)

"14:15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding."

You are saying that Paul and the scriptures are condeming a personal prayer language for personal edification, and only advocating tongues when interpreted for the body. Paul is clearly...CLEARLY...saying both are fine:[/qb][/quote]
No, clearly he isn't.
I too, pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also "sing with the understanding."
However, I can't do any of that if I am speaking in tongues. It isn't speaking of tongues here. To pray with understanding is the exact opposite of speaking in tongues where Paul specifically said there was no understandin, therefore don't speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
--The emphasis was always on understanding, and always a gift to all the church, never for one's own selfish use.
I also sing with understanding; but again I can't do that while speaking with tongues (today's gibberish--it is an impossibility and you know it).
As for praying and singing in the spirit I do that also. There is a command to be filled with the Holy Spirit, and also the Bible tells us that every believer is indwelt with the Holy Spirit. In fact if you are not the Bible clearly says "that you are none of His." I pray in the spirit, the Spirit of God, not tongues.

Clearly he isn't. It is not even speaking of tongues.

This again is a clear rebuke. If I come to you and speak in the Afghan language you may not even know when I say "Amen." And that is what he is saying. With tongues there is only confusion, but prophecy serves to edify. When "blessing" the food, pray in a language that all can understand, that all may be edified, that all will understand, that all will know when you say "Amen." Praying in tongues, when blessing the food is just plain foolishness and that is what Paul is saying. That meaning is obvious to any objective reader of the Word of God.

True enough. The problem seems to have been was that there were not any in the church that had need of a foreign language to be spoken. They all understood the same language. Why then speak in tongues? It was a sharp rebuke throught the whole chapter, as it should be today.

For your sake I will.

What is your point here? The other is not edified!
It is a rebuke! Don't do it. Don't speak in tongues! The other is not edified! How plain can it be. Why are you trying to read your own theology into these verses when it isn't there. You still give thanks well--so what! You give thanks well--in a language that only you can understand, that edifies no one. That was Paul's point. I may be able to come to you, and possibly speak to (supposing) perfect Telegu, and, and my oration of such may be very good. I may be very well be "in tune with God. But what good is that to all those who only understand English? Absolutely nothing!! That is the meaning of Paul.

There is only one form of Biblical tongues--other foreign languages. "How hear we every man in our own "tongue" (language)?" You can give thanks well in any language; that doesn't mean everone will understand you. Paul never admitted that he participates with others speaking in tongues. Where do you get that from? To pray in the spirit is not to pray in tongues. Neither is to be infant baptized. Don't read into Scripture things that are not there.
DHK

 

Mark 16:17-18 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

I love the "etc." part, Mike, the part you deliberately left out. The all leave it for quite apparent reasons. From the place that I am posting at (not Canada) a fellow came up to me with a Cobra. He wanted me to give him a little money and he would entertain me by his "snake-charming" ability. But he doesn't actually pick it up. He knows better than that. How may cobras and/or other dangerous snakes have you "taken up" recently? What about drinking deadly poison. I know of a good one--HCL (Hydrochloric Acid.) That will eat your stomach out fairly quickly; might even kill you. Why not take the challenge and drink a glass or two? Notice that the text says nowhere "accidently." It says very plainly "and if they WILL drink.... It is a decision made by choice, not by accident. So please choose to pick up snakes and drink deadly poison that you can fulfill this Scripture for me; or else concede that it was fulfilled in the first century.

FOR NNE UNDERSTANDS HIM, Mike; no one understands him. The conclusion ought to be: Don't speak in tongues: for no one understands him.
Praying in a tongue privately is totally unscripturally because no gift was given to a private individual for their own selfish use. Try that with the gift of helps or the gift of healing. Would they just help themselves? Heal themselves? What kind of logic is that? Neither is tongues just for oneself, but for the whole church! Thus, as per your conclusion, it is not a good thing; it is never a good thing to go against the clear teaching of Scripture.

You have repeatedly quoted these verses, and I give you the same answer every time. It should have sunk in by now, don't you think?
To pray in a personal prayer language is bad--bad, bad, bad--Mike. To do anything contrary to Scripture is bad.
To give thanks (whether you do it well or not) is bad Mike, if it is done in a language where no one can understand you. The key in all of this is understanding and edification--for all.
DHK

 

dhk,
You wonder why your words don't sink in? Because there are words from the Holy Spirit that are already there.

To pray in a personal prayer language is ... just what Paul and the first century Christians did. It was good then, and it is good now.

Someday, we'll all get together in heaven and find out how all this stuff we are divergent on now worked out.

But, as you will probably totally agree with, we will not have agreement now.

I think your position will continue to be challenged over the next 20 - 30 years. Most of the reports coming out of Asia, Africa, and South America are that most new Christians are some type of charismatic. Hopefully, there will be some way for the two sides to exist together. But it's tough.

As I said before, I currently reside in a Southern Baptist church. They don't know I'm there, and unless the Holy Spirit changes them, they will never know I'm there. But there's a very strong possibility that a great number of Southern Baptists will, soon, surrender to the work of the Holy Spirit. Then, we will see some incredible things begin to happen. It might not happen, and then, we will begin to see some incredible bad things begin to happen.

 

DHK

If speaking in tongues without interpretation only edifies oneself, and if self-edification were bad, why did Paul allow people to speak in tongues without an interpreter if they did it outside of the church meeting?

I Corinthians 14:28. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

And do you refrain from reading your Bible every day? You might end up edifying yourself. Wouldn't you consider that a bad thing?

Edifying oneself is not bad. It is just not appropriate to take up the churches time just to edify oneself.