For those who speak in tongues...

Your reasoning is wrong, and unbiblical. It is the same reasoning that the Catholics use to teach infant baptism. The jailor (Acts 16) and all his household were saved. Thus (by inference) there were infants in the household that were baptized though it was impossible for them to believe. Your logic is exactly the same and just as unbiblical

Jesus said that in the end times false prophets woud arise--wolves in sheep's clothing. He warned what would become of them. He said that many in that day (of Judgement) would say Lord, Lord, have we not done many wonerful works in thy name..." But Jesus will say unto them: "Depart from me ye wicked into everlasting fire for I never knew you."
The issue is false prophets. Jesus doesn't say a word about "true prophets," and to infer such is absolutely wrong!
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Let me get this straight.....its ok for you to say that tongues has ceased (because you just say so) without offering sound bibical proof.

One more thing......Peter quoted the prophet Joel in Acts 2 where he speaks of the last days. Exsactly what last days do you suppose he is refering to?????????? Do you believe we are still living in the last days or did they end in 70 AD as yoyu think the gifts of the Spirit ceased?

 

DHK said:Jesus said that in the end times false prophets woud arise--wolves in sheep's clothing. He warned what would become of them. He said that many in that day (of Judgement) would say Lord, Lord, have we not done many wonerful works in thy name..." But Jesus will say unto them: "Depart from me ye wicked into everlasting fire for I never knew you."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Tam says:

1 Cor-13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity,{which means LOVE} I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.


THIS is why He says depart from me, because without love all our efforts mean nothing.

Whoso readeth let him understand.

Selah,

Tam

 

DHK,

I said...

And you said...

Lets say that you and I are natural brothers, and I am playing my guitar loudly at night in the bedroom next to yours and you cant sleep. You come in and say...

"Mike, you play the guitar well, but please stop. Its late and I cant get to sleep!"

I should take that as you saying...

"You are to never play the guitar anymore Mike...ever!

Of course not. You do not speak with forked tongue...you mean just what you said. You believe I play well and should continue...but not when you are trying to sleep.

In the same way God does not speak with forked tongue...He means just what He said. Praying that way is fine, but its not the best in a gathered assembly.

I posted this...

Referring to the rest of that passage...

"They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover."

You then said...

Ummm, probably due to the topic of this thread...

Tongues is the topic at hand, and tongues is what we have been discussing. Not those other things (which btw have been happening for 2000 years now just like the gift of tongues)

In referring to this passage...

"14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak men but to God, for no one understands him"

You said this...

Well...thats what YOU say.

But Almighty God says...

"14:17 For you indeed give thanks well, but the other is not edified."

You're my brother and I love you, but if you say one thing and God says something else I'm going to side with God every time.

God bless,

Mike

 

DKH are

As Brian explained, I don't believe that any of the first century supernatural gifts of the spirit (and they were all supernatural in one way or another) are for today. They have ceased. God gives us talents and abilities that we are to use for the Lord. At salvation he may give some a gift for preaching or teaching. But yet it is different than that which was given in the first century. Theirs was supernatural; our is not.
DHK </font>[/QUOTE]Dkh,
Are you saying that there is nothing supernatural that happens anymore.
Does a person even have to be saved to have talents and abilties. if so is there any dfference between Christians and non christians.

BTW
Do you and briquy have to tag team togehter to answer questions on this subject.

 

Hi Link, all 1 cor. 14:28 is saying is that if you feel a need to speak the gospel to any in the assembly that speak a different language, don't unless there is an interpreter present. I believe that Tongues and int. of tongues were fairly rare and that the people in the gathering knew who had those gifts beforehand. Why did Paul say to keep silent? Because the gift of tongues MUST edify the whole assembly to be used properly. If there was two German speaking people in a gathering of 500 and a person stood up for 15 minuyes and spoke to the German folks in German, what would the 498 do during that time? They would do nothing but sit. Ah but with an interpreter the message could be shared with all and all would be edified and the gift used properly and the sign to Isreal revealed. Paul was adressing a Corinth church where everybody was jumping up speaking in tongues and there was chaos in the church. Paul at the end of 28 says just to keep silent and pray to yourself, not in tongues, but just simple prayer, with understanding, which he stressed earlier.

DHK, Thanks for the great posts!!!!! The Hebrews argument is very convincing!!

In Christ,
Brian

 

M4H, maybe you missed it or maybe it was on another thread but I said that if you read what Peter said carefully about Joel, He was not saying it was the last days. He was saying that what they were seeing was an out pouring of the Holy spirit in the same maner as will be seen in the last days. Joel does not mention Tongues which is what the people had just seen. That is also why the rest of the Joel prophecy about the sun turning black, etc... has not been fulfilled. That is all Peter was saying, which actually makes spriitual gifts in general and the "last days" easier to understand. Hope that helps clear things up a little.

atestring, I am just a lay-person who loves the Lord, and loves to study God's word. DHK is a minister of God's word and a Bible teacher, I hardly measure up as his tag-team partner but thanks for the compliment!!!

In Christian love,
Brian

 

No, I never said any such thing. God is able to intervene at anytime he wishes and perform a miracle, and indeed does so on occasion. What I said relates directly to the gifts of the Spirit, and only the gifts of the Spirit, described in 1 Corinthians 12. Those gifts were supernatural in their nature. If one understands the word supernatural correctly it means above the realm of the natural. It is not a common occurence. It is not as if you get a check in the mail when you have a financial need. That is not a miracle. God's providential care of his people is a far cry from what is defined within the parameters of a Biblical miracle. "Super-natural"--above the natural--when God suspends the laws of nature. For example the law of gravity was suspended when Peter walked on it. That was a miracle. Such miracles do not happen today.

No, not at all. Preaching would have been the last thing that I ever would have wanted to do before I was saved. In fact, anything of a religious nature I would stay away from. (I was saved when I was 20). Simply being a Catholic was good enough. But when I did get saved, God worked in my heart slowly. He convicted me that I should go to Bible College. At Bible College I was convicted that I should preach, even though I hated to speak in front of people. God gives one the grace to do the things that he wants him to do. Before I was saved I never had the talent or ability to sing. I still don't. He doesn't change us in those ways. He refines what we do have so that we may use the talents we have for God, and not the devil. That is what Paul was teaching in Rom.6:11-14.
Who do you yield the members of your body to?

 

It appeared that dkh needed you for his tag team partner!
Is everyone ready to rumble?

 

"Whoso readeth let him understand."
Good advice Tam, you should adhere to it.

1Cor.13 and Mat.7 have almost nothing in common.
The one is a description of love.
The other is a warning by Jesus about false prophets. Jesus never said anything about love in Matthew 7.
The Bible says: "Study to show yourselves approved unto God, workmen that need not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
You are not rightly dividing God's word of truth. You are butchering it.

Previous to the judgment Jesus pronounced on those of whom he said: "Depart from me I never knew you," he had warned his disciples to beware of false prophets for they come to you as sheep in wolves clothing. Read from verse 20 onward. There is nothing said about love here, only discernment of false prophets, judging who is a false prophet, the fruit of a false prophet and the condemnation of the false prophet.
There is nothing about love said in this passage at all. For you to read anything that 1Cor.13 has to say into this passage in Mat.7 is what Peter says: "wresting the Scriptures to your own damnation." Those are harsh words. But the Bible warns us clearly against taking such Scripture out of context in order to make it fit your own pre-determined theology. That is again the mark of a cult--exactly what you did. Making your theology fit Scripture taken out of context.

Look carefully again:
1. Beware of false prophets:

Matthew 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

2. Judge them (fruit-inspectors)
Matthew 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

3. Their Fruit.
Matthew 7:16-19 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

--The fruit here is doctrine. Jesus had warned of the leaven of the Pharisees. The sinful doctrine or teaching. False prophets teach false doctrine. That is the fruit.

4. Their Judgement and condemnation.
Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

--The above condemnation is based on the description of the works and theology of what is happening in the Charismatic movement today.
DHK

 

I love your posts DHK!! They are great explanations. People in the charismatic church today do seem more intersted in the "gifts" being performed and who has them then anything else. They are coming across as "Look at us, and what we can do, we are filled with the spirit."

 

DHK, no need to be insulting. If you don't understand scripture the way I do, fine!!

But don't tell me I am butchering it.

I asked questions, but instead of answerong, you make un christianlike remarks.

You act as if you have no love for people unless they think like you.

Tam

 

Tam,
I love the Scriptures,
And I respect you as a person, and a believer in Christ.
My post to you, as I said was a sharp rebuke, and was meant to be. I pointed out plainly how you were not "rightly dividing the word of truth," how one passage of Scripture had nothing to do with another. This has nothing to do with your beliefs. If you are going to state your beliefs then back them up in a consistent logical and Scriptural way. But don't force two passages of Scripture together which have nothing to do with each other. That is what I showed you, and I think very clearly so. If you were offended I am sorry, but I don't back away from the truth of my post.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
This expression is unique to Paul, probably because he was a tent-maker. A tent-maker in those days made their tents out of hides of animals. They had a pattern, musch like a tailor or seamstress does, and cut out the pieces accordingly. The pieces had to fit exactly right or the tent wouldn't be a very good product. You just couln't cut here and there or you just be wasting valuable hide, and end up with no tent at all.

Can you imagine someone making a dress taking her cloth, making some random cuts with a pair of scissors, a few other random cuts with a pair of pinking shears (sp?), and then for some real design just taking the cloth and ripping it here and there. What would you have to work with? Would you be able to make a dress now? I don't think so! One has to follow a pattern very carefully and cut the cloth according to the design and measurements in the pattern or it won't fit together properly. That is the illustration, as a tent-maker, that Paul is giving.
When it comes to the Word of God, you just can't cut here and there at random and expect to come up with a well-structured complete theology. You must rightly divide the word of truth. You must compare Scripture with Scripture and make sure that all scripture is in harmony with each other, that no Scripture is taken out of its historical context. It must all fit together in every way. It comes together as a glove fits a hand. Why? The entire book had only one author, and that Author doesn't make mistakes. His book is perfect, and he expects us to perfectly handle it in such a way that we "be not ashamed" as workmen, when we study it.
DHK

 

Oh like in 1 Cor. 12 were it talks about the body members and the church and what should be in it.

1Co 12:12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1Co 12:14 For the body is not one member, but many.
1Co 12:15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
1Co 12:17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
1Co 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1Co 12:19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
1Co 12:20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1Co 12:21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.
1Co 12:22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:
1Co 12:23 And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness.
1Co 12:24 For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked:
1Co 12:25 That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another.
1Co 12:26 And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Co 12:27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
1Co 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles?
1Co 12:30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. (The more excellent way is doing it all with love.)

Stop and think about it~

*Music4Him pouring a cup of coffee for the debaters on this topic

 

Rightly dividing the word of truth seems to depend on how you are dividing it along denominational lines.( on this board)

I happen to believe that my "dividing" is correct,and your sharp rebuke was not needed.

If you can't see the connection between the 2 scriptures I posted then perhaps you need to read it again, and this time don't go by what you have already decided, read the word and ask God to show you what I am saying.

Selah,

Tam

 

music4Him,

And a mighty fine cup of coffee it is.

I just woke up and was taking a sip as I read that part of your post.

Thanks!

Mike

 

People in the Baptist Church today do seem more interested in the number of baptisms and the number of names being added to their church rolls than anything else. It doesn't matter if they are really saved. It doesn't matter if they ever attend a service. Just as long as they get dunked, and as long as they can add them to the membership roster.

Foolish statement? No more foolish than this:

 

The church I go to is interested in getting people saved, and then dicipleing them and helping them understand the scripture.

It's NOT who's got the most gifts!! As a matter of fact, I hate to disappoint you boys but, salvation is the most important thing.

selah,

Tam

 

Amen ~Tam! Your right salvation is the most important thing!

 

Salvation is not the most important thing; it never has. Take a look at Peter's sermon in Acts chapter 2.
First, there was doctrine: He preached the Word to them. He was filled with the Spirit and spoke the Word of God boldly, explaining the gospel message.

Second, there was a conviction of the Holy Spirit--no baptism of the Holy Spirit, no speaking in tongues--but a Holy Spirit sent conviction of the Holy Spirit. This is one of the most important part of the Holy Spirit's ministry today. They were so convicted that they cried out: "Men and brethren what shall we do?"

Third, At that time, Peter was able to tell them what to do, and in verse 41 we find that 3,000 were saved. But first the Word was preached. Doctrine was needed. Second the conviction of the Holy Spirit was needed. And then souls could be saved. Thus the saving of souls was not the most important thing in God's order of things. The preaching of the Word (doctrine) was. Without that they counld not be saved.
DHK

 

Please stop nit-picking! All you just did was describe the process!

As for speaking in tongues, you're the one that mentioned that not me. I just said salvation is the most important thing!!

Take a look at:

Acts 16-30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

The man wanted to be saved, and they told him how.

Of course the Holy Spirit draws man to God. Nobody is saying different..

Sheesh,

Tam