2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

#1. This is not a-millennial. Rather it predicts a literal millennium as Rev 20 describes it that starts with the "FIRST resurrection" as Rev 20 states.

#2. You aready admitted that the sequence fits the one God gives in Matt 24.

#3. The fact that you have questions about how God's sequence works is not the same thing as proving that the Matt 24 sequence is flawed.

The clear teaching is a real physical 2nd coming AND a real literal 1000 years - millenium that starts with the REAL "first resurrection" as stated in Rev 20.

It includes Christ really physically taking the saints to be "with Him" in heaven as He promised He would do when He "comes again" John 14:1-3.

And it includes the saints REALLY being raised in that FIRST resurrection as both Rev 20 and 1Thess 4 testify with the living also CAUGHT UP with them in the air to be WITH Christ IN heaven!

It is all real, all literal.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is progress.

In fact it does. They asked about the destruction of Jerusalem and about the return of Christ. The sequence covers ALL of that ... including Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

Your view of trying to solve the question with a DIFFERENT sequence other than the one christ gives in Matt 24 -- is not really a "better sequence" as you suppose.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BOB

I'm still at a "lost" to understanding how you explain the "no Gap" theory, IF all that was suppose to be accomplished, hasn't been accomplished.

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

1. to finish the transgression,
2. and to make an end of sins,
3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
6. and to anoint the most Holy.

ALL these have been accomplished for the church, but not for Israel.

And if they are not finished for Israel,

The "Conformation" of the covenant occurs during the same week the "Abomination of Desolation" takes place, "in the midst of". (Middle of the week)

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

and in the midst of the week

he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

"WHO/WHAT" is this group that the covenant is confirmed with during the same week??

And how can the covenant be confirmed for "one week" if the week is only a "Half week"??

"WHERE" does this fit into scripture, anyplace??

 

I'm sure "Hilleary Clinton" will help us "figure it out".

According to "EVERYTHING" in scripture, the rapture should occur within about the next six years, or there's going to be some prophecies "FAIL".

I'll post one, but even Jesus promised to be "BACK ON EARTH", early in the morning of the "THIRD DAY". (day=1000 years)



If you'll go back and look at the previously posted chart, you can "count the days" until his return, almost all my charts show this, however most don't notice it.

Both Fig tree parable have a "TIME LIMIT" placed on them, "THIS GENERATION". (70 years)

Jesus only said we could know the "DAY AND HOUR", he didn't mention the "WEEK" (Feast of trumpets) "MONTH", (sept-Oct) or the "YEAR", (I'd shore nuff like to know that one)

 

1) From Adam until the descending of New Jerusalem,
how many ages are there?

- 4, Conscience, Law, Grace, Millennium

2) Is the Holy Spirit required for salvation?

- Absolutely

3) Does/Has God changed?

- No, his plan does

4) Does/Has Jesus changed (besides the obvious)?

- No

5) Is the Holy Spirit "raptured" at the same
time as the believers?

- Yes

6) Who are the 144,000 sealed Jews?

- Remnant of living Israelites

7) Are these 144K Jews evangelists?

- No, they are raptured independently of the Church.

8) Is there more than one way or method that one can be saved?

- No

9) Are there different classes of the saved?

- No

A) Can the Jews be saved outside of Jesus?

- No

B) Is works necessary for salvation?

- No

C) Will there be a mass period of evangelism during
the tribulation?

-. Underground probably, not like we see it today.

D) Is martyrdom a prerequisite for salvation
during the tribulation?

-. Yes, works are added like in the OT

E) If the Holy Spirit is not here during the tribulation
then how can anyone be saved?

- God's spirit, just like the OT

F) Can God protect His children on the earth from His wrath?

- Yes

10) Are those mentioned throughout the NT as elect
the Jews or the Church?

- The Church, Acts 2-Rev. 3

11) What are the moral implications on pre-tribbers
if they are wrong and the Lord comes at the
end of the tribulation only once?

- Will maintain standards as we do today

12) Does my belief in a post-trib return of our Lord affect
or negate my "rapture" at the beginning of the tribulation?

- Nope

13) Do you believe that only spiritual Christians
will be "raptured" out at the beginning of the
tribulation, leaving non-spiritual ones here?

- Yes

14) Do you believe that since the word "church"
is not found between Revelation 4 and 21 the church
is not on the earth?

- Yes, scriptures indicated they are in heaven during this time.

15) Since the early church fathers (ECFs) did not
believe in a pre-trib "rapture" did that affect
their salvation?

- No

16) Which is superior, the English translations,
or the original Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek?

- Originals no not exist

17) Do you believe the tribulation will be pre-mil,
post-mil, or a-mil?

- pre-mil

18) Are the church-age saints (those today)
considered the Bride of Christ?

- Nope, Israel is his bride

19) Are the OT saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

- Nope

1A) Are the trib-saints considered part of the Bride of Christ?

- Nope

1B) Are the Jews who are saved after the tribulation
saved outside of the blood of Christ?

- Nope

1C) Why are people saying today "Where is the
promise of His return?" (Fulfilling
the scripture: 2 Peter 3:4 And saying,
Where is the promise of his coming?
for since the fathers fell asleep,
all things continue as they were from
the beginning of the creation.)

- People of the world cannot accept spiritual things

1D) Can you, as a pre-tribulationist, afford to be wrong?

- Sure

1E) What are the implications on you, your family,
your friends, your church, should pre-trib be proven wrong?

- A lot of hardships and sufferings

1F) Can you quote a verse for us that says,
in the words of Christ, Peter, John, Paul,
whoever, "After that tribulation I will gather my church."?

- Nope

20) You said you've been studying the Word forhow long?
Did you arrive at pre-trib on your own,
or did you first discover it in the writings
of Lindsay/Pentecost/Kirban/Scofield/Ryrie/LaHaye/Walvoord/Larkin, et.al.?

- 20 years, Lindsay, Pentecost, Walvoord, Larkin, Dake

 

You know that,

and I know that

But a quick visit to the KJO thread and you'll see how many have "NEVER" noticed the "PERFECTION" in scripture.

One word, changed, misunderstood, can change "EVERYTHING".

I think many people have read the Bible, but "FEW" have read "GOD'S WORDS".

I'm reminded of the "SLOPED HEADLIGHTS" that came out on cars, Just a bulb in the center of a reflector, right, WRONG".

No auto Manf: in the "WORLD" could get the design RIGHT, a special reseach group was funded by all the Manf: to solve this one problem, and after three years, still couldn't solve the problem.

The problem was then taken to the Universities of the "WORLD", and an old math professor from Italy finally gave them an "Ideal" as how it might be solved, which worked.

Like the headlight, people never realize what was required to make every verse/word in the scriptures connect/correspond to all other verses.

And that's a "problem" only "GOD" can solve.

Did it ever occur to you that since the OT saints were "resurrected" (back on earth) and appeared in Jerusalem and then taken to heaven with Jesus when he ascended, that none of their "remains" are in their "tombs"?? (Joseph's tomb)

 

Lest we forget.

The 490 years begin with a decree by King Artaxerxes to restore and rebuild Jerusalem.
Ezra 7-11 Now this is the copy of the letter that the king Artaxerxes gave unto Ezra the priest, the scribe, even a scribe of the words of the commandments of the LORD, and of his statutes to Israel.
12 Artaxerxes, king of kings, unto Ezra the priest, a scribe of the law of the God of heaven, perfect peace, and at such a time.
13 I make a decree, that all they of the people of Israel, and of his priests and Levites, in my realm, which are minded of their own freewill to go up to Jerusalem, go with thee.
14 Forasmuch as thou art sent of the king, and of his seven counsellors, to inquire concerning Judah and Jerusalem, according to the law of thy God which is in thine hand; this happened in 457 BC.


Once we have fixed the date to start the prophecies of the 70 weeks, their chronology is a simple matter. We can summarize it as follows:

457 B.C. Decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem
408 B.C. 7 weeks to rebuild the city (49 years)
A.D. 27 After 69 weeks the Prince was anointed (baptism of Jesus, Luke 3:1, 21) (483 years)
A.D. 30/31 The Messiah died during the last week (crucifixion of Christ)
A.D. 34 Stoning of Stephen (Acts 6:12-7:60) and the gospel reaches the Gentile world (Acts 9, 10).

If you follow the events, logically, you will come to the correct answer.

The 490 years has been fulfilled.

Peace,

Tam

 

There were four decrees issued for the rebuilding of Jerusalem:

1. Cyrus in 538 BC (2 Chron. 36:22-23; Ezra 1:1-4; 5:13).

2. Darius in 512 BC (Ezra 6:1, 6-12).

3. Artaxerses in 457 BC (Ezra 7:11-26).

4. Artaxerses on March 5, 444 BC (Neh. 2:1-8).

The first two were for rebuilding the temple in Jerusalem.

The third relates to finances for animal sacrifices.

Only the fourth granted permission to rebuild Jerusalem's city walls and is the one referred to in Dn. 9:25.

444 BC to 33 AD = 476 years + leap years + 24 days (March 5-March 30) = 483 years.

483 years have been fulfilled, the last 7 years still prophetic.

 

Notice the fourth decree gives the month, allowing us to calculate whereas the other three are in the first year of the king's reign.

 

And they continue to walk in their own wisdom.

Selah,

Tam

 

There are "some things" in scripture you can be "Dogmatic" about, but for the most part, it isn't "wise", we haven't "Scratched the surface" on the total amount of Info contained in the scriptures, it's best to keep an "open mind" and look for that "grain of truth" in almost "everything".

When you "think" you know something, you stop seaching, and so does your "learning".

 

OK, why calculate the stoning of Stephen into the 70 weeks??

Why not "Peter's death" or some other Disciple??

 

Me4Him said:

There are "some things" in scripture you can be "Dogmatic" about, but for the most part, it isn't "wise", we haven't "Scratched the surface" on the total amount of Info contained in the scriptures, it's best to keep an "open mind" and look for that "grain of truth" in almost "everything".

When you "think" you know something, you stop seaching, and so does your "learning".

_____________________________________________

My point exactly!!

There are people that are so dogmatic, that whatever they say is supposed to be taken with as much validity as the Bibe!!

Those are the ones I worry about. We can look at it anyway we want, and when we finally do get to heaven we will ALL have interpreted something wrong.

Peace,

Tam

 

Let's take look at the seventy weeks.

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

1. to finish the transgression,
2. and to make an end of sins,
3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
6. and to anoint the most Holy.

SIX things are to fulfilled at the end of the seventy weeks, these have been fulfilled for the Church, but until Israel accepts Jesus, they can't be fulfilled, so evidently there's "AT LEAST" one week left before this prophecy is complete.

Here's how they're "Spiritually" fulfilled for the church, but it will "literally" be true at the end of the Tribulations, or the end of the "SEVENTIETH WEEK".


1. to finish the transgression,

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (The LAW)



2. and to make an end of sins,

Joh 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.



3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,



4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,

Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ



5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,

Lu 7:27 This is he, of whom it is written,



6. and to anoint the most Holy.

Ac 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:


The Church "anoints" Jesus when we accept him as "SAVIOR".