2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
In Matt 24 it is very clear that the Tribulation aocurs before the appearing of Christ.
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So you want to claim that at Christ's coming (2Thess 2, 1 Thess 4, Heb 9, ...) He does NOT come in power and majesty!!??? And you think that 1Thess 4 or Matt 24 argues such a thing???

In any case you seem to be happy now with the sequence IN the text as IT MENTIONS IT.


quote:
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Originally posted by BobRyan:
In Rev 19-20 it is very clear that Christ appears
BEFORE the "FIRST resurrection".
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So its "MENTIONING" in Matt 24 is quite acceptable - but we should ignore the MENTIONING (the actual wording IN the text and the sequence IT shows) when it comes to TWO entire CHAPTERS in Rev 19-20 because they do not fit your views?

How instructive.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan: //3. literal millennium spent in heaven with Christ (Rev 20)//

As pointed out in my quote - you did not read that in Rev 20 which is the only text in all of scripture where the Millennium is explicitly stated!

Interesting that you would object to that observation about Rev 20 by NOT quoting Rev 20!!

Rev 19 and 20 seem to be a problem for you. As well as Matt 24.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Since you have reminded us of your You are here sequences...

The question is asked as to how this fits with the future predicted in 2Thess 2:1-7 where the "man of sin" causes all to fall that do not "have a love of the truth".

The answer is -- "perfectly".

In Both Matt 24 and 2Thess 2 we see the same thing presented PRIOR to the return of Christ in the air to "receive us to Himself" and take us to that "place He has prepared for us" in His Father's house.

And THEN we see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven - (as described in Matt 24 FUTURE to th writing of that Gospel).

In the same way - before the return of Christ we ALSO see the deception that is predicted (future to Paul's day)

The falling away of vs 1-4 came with the fall of the Christian church into the form of the RCC, and persecution of the saints by the church during the dark ages.

But the "Great deception" described in both 2Thess 2 and in Matt 24 that comes at the end and BEFORE the return of Christ - has yet to take place.

So to add to the sequence above ...

0. The Christian church continues -- You are here

1. The great apostacy of the dark ages (2Thess 2:2-4)
2. The Seven last Plagues (Rev 16)
3. The GREAT deception - (Matt 24, 2Thess 2)
4. The 2nd Coming (the return of Christ APPEARING in the air) (Rev 19, 1Thess 4)
5. The resurrection of the Righteous (John 5, Rev 20, 1Thess 4) "which is the FIRST resurrection".
6. Saints raptured up in the air to be with Christ (1Thess 4)

7. The literal millennium - (Rev 20)
8. The 2nd resurrection (John 5, Rev 20) of "wicked only" over whom the 2nd death DOES have power.
9. The Lake of Fire event (Rev 20)
10. The New heavens and New Earth (Rev 21)

Exactly as the Bible described it - in the same order -- all literally true.

Resurrection Counting

Some are asking why John writing at Patmos - looking into the future -- is seeing the Rev 20 event at the Rev 19 2nd coming as the "FIRST resurrection".

They wonder why that is the FIRST resurrection in the future for NT saints.

They ask Why John looking into the future at "things which must shortly come to pass" did not see - "The resurrection of Christ" and also the OT saints raised in Matt 27 or the resurrection of Jarius' daughter etc.

Yet it is actually quote obvious and clear why those PAST resurrections do not appear as THE FIRST one in the FUTURE as John looks down to the end of time. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

Each of the sequences of 7 in revelation (except for the plagues) start with the time of John and go on through to the end of the world. You should be able to find "you are here" in each of them.

In Christ,

Bob

 

And the firs seal... and the second seal...

And the first trumpet...and the second trumpet...

And the first horse...and the second horse...

Do you have actual "numbered sequences like that" other than the plagues Ed??

I thought not.


The point remains -- the "you are here" point for our current age can be found in each one of these spanning prophecies that start with the days of John and go through to the 2nd coming.


In Christ,

Bob

 

I agree as to why they were confused, but let me ask you this,

"IF" they believed the "day of Christ" was the same as the "Day of the Lord" when Jesus physically returns to the earth to end the trib and start the MK,

HOW could they have believed the "END OF THE WORLD" had come and "THEY MISSED IT"?????

They people knew/understood about an "EVENT" that would occur "BEFORE" the end of the world, in which "SOME PEOPLE" would be "TAKEN" and "SOME" people "LEFT BEHIND", that's why they believed the rapture had already occurred and they had "MISSED THAT EVENT".

And the "RAPTURE", (Day of Christ, Jesus as the Bridegroom) is the "EVENT" Paul addressed in his response,

The "Day of the Lord" is not over in the twinkling of an eye as the rapture, the church returns to heaven (where I am, there ye may be also) for the "Lamb's Marriage supper" while the trib occurs here on earth.

Jesus, as the "Passover lamb" protected only the "FIRSTBORN" (church) from "DEATH" by the "Stripes in "HIS FLESH", and during the trib, many will "Literally" (stripes in their flesh) die for Jesus salvation.

This is why the church "literally" will "PASSOVER" the trib.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Because the "COMFORTER" is "greater than he who is in the world", "HE" (comforter) must be "taken out of the way" (rapture) before Satan/AC can "PREVAIL" against the trib saints.

Da 7:21 I beheld, and the same horn (AC) made war with the saints, and prevailed against them;

The "comforter" is the means which Jesus is "with us, even to the end of the world", this is why satan can't "PREVAIL" against the church, and why the comforter/church must be "rapture" "BEFORE" satan can prevail.


I'd suggest reading the parable of the "TEN VIRGINS", this is the event they believed they had missed, and it wasn't the "END OF THE WORLD", or "Day of the Lord".

 

First of all we both agree that they were in error and had been lead to error by those teaching error as already pointed out.

Secondly they are looking for ONE singular event the one described in John 14:3 "I WILL come again and receive you to myself", Matt 24 the promised coming is AFTER the tribulation, 1Thess 4 that promised coming has with it the resurrection of the saints.

The saints of Paul's day were already In tribulation and persecution. They do not think of the return of Christ as a time of Christ on earth ruling - but as a time when He appears in "flaming fire" (2Thess 1) dealing out retribution and takes the saints back to heaven with Him.

Nobody was thinking of the return of Christ as a time when Christ was on earth ruling -- not even Paul.

In 2PEter 3 the COMING of Christ IS the "End of the world" with the earth "destroyed by Fire".

In Rev 19 the COMING of Christ IS the end of the world with the earth destroyed by the armies of God.

In Matt 24 the coming of Christ IS THE END of the WORLD with all tribes of the earth in mourning.

They never refer to some "other event" where Christ returns before He returns or where Christ comes before Christ comes. It is aLL stated as "Christ's appearing" Christ's return, Christ saying "I will come again" John 14:3.

They all point to the same event.

This is why in Matt 24 you only see ONE EVENT -- and that is after the tribulation - the appearing of Christ.

This is why in Rev 19-20 there is only ONE EVENT at which you find the FIRST resurrection -- the appearing of Christ.

This is why in 1Thess 4 there is only ONE EVENT - the "Lord descends from heaven WITH A SHOUT!"

You are right that the Holy Spirit is He who restrains Satan. You are wrong to think that 2Thess 2 says anything about the Holy Spirit being raptured.

In any case - those in error that Paul corrected needed to know that

BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the revelation of the end-times antichrist "man of sin" vs 3,8

BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the falling away within the church - the apostacy the dark ages 3

BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the withdrawing of the Holy Spirit, Vs 7

BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the revealing of Satan himself attempting to counterfeit Christ showing himself as if HE is god! 4, 9

It would be wise for us to listen to those words of Paul as well since many are still deceived on those same points.

In Christ,

Bob

[ October 29, 2005, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]

 

Me4Him - (Rom 12, Zech 8? Isaiah 10??)

You seem to be all-over-the-board. Anywhere but 2Thess2??

I was just pointing out that in the topic of this thread (2Thess 2) the details in the chapter appear to support a post trib rapture resurrection since the one they were looking for would NOT happen until the list of things mentioned in the chapter take place.

Just stating the obvious.

In Christ,

Bob

 

(One of the 7's in Rev with a "you are here" segement that I left out -- the 7 churches!)

 

Isa 28:10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

Matt 24 "IS NOT" in "chronological order" of events, Jesus starts off describing events until the "end of the world", No flesh saved proves this,

then the parable of the fig tree (his Branch) backs up to His appearence, 2000 years ago,

Mt 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

As stated previously, In the Rapture, Jesus "DOES NOT" send angels, but come "HIMSELF" for the church.

Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (heaven)

Re 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

Re 14:16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. (Rapture)

ANGEL REAPER

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together, (only the living are separated) until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Mt 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Jesus "SEVER" the "Just" from among the "Wicked", in the rapture.

Re 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Jesus rapture both "LIVING AND DEAD", Angel only "SEPARATE" the "LIVING" (wheat/tares) the "UNSAVED DEAD" remain dead until the GWT.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

 

This is a perfect illustration of your error. In Matt 24 our GATHERING together is AFTER the tribulation and after Christ APPEARS when Christ "comes again" as HE promised in John 14.

In 1Thess 4 our GATHERING todgether ia ALSO mentioned and SHOWN to including our being taken up into the air to go back to heaven with Christ at the SAME point Matt 24 identifies!!

You "insert" the term rapture AS IF you find it in 1Thess 4 and you do not. But you insert it AS IF 1Thess 4 or John 14 had said "AT the RAPTURE I will gather you -- but at the -- something else - then the Angels will gather you".

Nothing of the kind can be found in all of scripture.

Christ is making THE SAME point about the future and hope of the church in Matt 24 and our "gathering together unto Him" as Paul shows Him making in 1Thess 4 and as Christ makes a few days later at the last Supper in John 14. It is all the SAME point, same focus, some consistent view of the end.

And your view of Matt 24 pretends that Christ MISSED the big "gathering together" that HE directs His Followers to focus on in John 14!!

Why in the world would you insert contrsdictions into the text like that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Jesus "DID NOT" reveal the "Rapture" of the church to the disciples, that was revealed "LATER", by "PAUL".

1Co 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

If Jesus had revealed it, then it wouldn't have been a "MYSTERY".

Scripture must be interpreted according the "CONTEXT" of a "TIME FRAME", everything has a "time/reason" for occuring.

Understanding the "REASON" events occur at a particular time, will also reveal the "PURPOSE" of the event, occurring/and event about to occur. (Pre trib rapture/Trib)

Jesus suffered the "STRIPES" of "Chastisement" for the church in 'HIS FLESH",
("REASON", pre trib rapture)

However Israel rejected Jesus, so they will suffer the "STRIPES" of "Chastisement" in "THEIR FLESH". (REASON, Israel enter the trib)

Getting the idea???

 

Hmm lets see "What the Bible says"

Does scripture tell us to number and associate the churches - and to note the number SEVEN for them??

Why "yes" there they are NUMBERED and in order called "the Seven Churches".

As I said - those explicit sequences of seven are in fact seven times, periods between the time of John and the time of Christ's coming (as He promised "I will Come Again")

As for your "seven personalities" you are free to search and SEE that the book of revelation never numbers them --

So the point stands without the exception you were suggesting.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Trib period, between the "Day of Christ" (rapture) and "Day of the Lord", (Jesus's return) is one part of scripture the "SPIRIT" has never led me to decipher, other than where it overlaps with my other study.

I understand what the symbols represents and why/what is "occuring", but never to sort them out Seal/vial to corresponding scripture verses.

Re 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;

and the SUN (Jesus, spiritual light of the world)

became black as sackcloth of hair,

and the MOON became as blood;(saints killed)

13 And the stars of heaven (children of God) fell unto the earth,

even as a fig tree (any saved)

casteth her untimely figs, (not old/ripe)

when she is shaken of a mighty wind. (wind=spirit of AC)

These figs "shaken loose" from the tree can also mean, a "falling away" from salvation, deceived by the AC with his "signs and wonders".

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.


Ro 9:6 For they are not all Israel, (Jews) which are of Israel:

Ro 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit,

Ro 11:26 And so all Israel (real Jews) shall be saved:

Da 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.

Da 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

Re 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Mt 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.


I have an "Appointment" to "ATTEND" a "wedding supper" during this time period, and it's scheduled to last for the "WHOLE WEEK", so why worry about those events??

Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: