2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

We seem to agree that only the living are "separated" from the living wicked at the "coming again" of Christ (IF I go I will come again) -- the event seen in 1Thess 4 and in Rev 20 as the "First resurrection".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Right, the "Wheat/Tares" separation is when Jesus "physically returns", this is done by "Angels Reapers".

But let me show you something else,

In the rapture, (day of Christ/Bridgroom)(pre trib)
1. Jesus reaps
2. the "SAVED" leave the earth. (Heaven bound)
3. the "UNSAVED" remain. (for trib period)


Jesus's return, (day of the lord) (post trib)
1. Angels reap
2. The "WICKED" leave the earth. (Hell bound)
3. The "SAVED" remain. (for MK)
This is the "FIRST RESURRECTION".

These "reaping" are exact "OPPOSITES" of the other, and are at "different times", else with both saved/unsaved removed at the same time , "NNE" would remain on earth.

But the "Rapture" is not described as the "First resurrection" by scripture, because they are not "back on the earth" at that time, but 7 years later (minus whatever Jesus shorten those days) when they return "to the earth" with Jesus.

Jews, under the OT were promised a "Resurrection", and they understood the "PROMISE" contained in the word "Resurrection", to "live and reign" with the Messiah, "ON EARTH", (MK) however the "RAPTURE" was a "MYSTERY" not revealed to them.

Naturally, it follows, if you're "rapture", you'll also be "Resurrected".

 

Me4Him,

Matthew chapter 13 doesn't suggest there is a hint of two phases of the second coming or harvests, neither, it gives any hint there shall be 3 1/2 or 7 years apart between two harvests. I can see only one harvest follow at the end of the world by the coming of the Lord.

Matthew 25:31-46 show us, there is the only one judgement day at Christ's coming. It does not give a hint there shall be two judgement days apart either 7 years or 1000 years.

Revelation chapter 14 is a perfect picture of the harvest, there is the only one harvest day at Christ's coming.

John 6:39,40,44, & 54 clear telling us, that we shall be rise on the "LAST DAY". It simple mean the final day of the age or humankind era. It does not saying there shall be 1,290 days, or 7 years, or 1000 years either. It simple saying, "LAST DAY". It is very, very clear telling us, that the resurrection shall be occur at Christ's coming on the last day of the age or humankind era. Our caught up/harvest shall not be occured TILL the resurrection must be occur first according to 1 Thess. 4:16-17.

No way that you can find a verse anywhere in the Bible gives us a hint that resurrection or harvest shall be occured aparted as phase of the series of Christ's coming. Bible teaches us, that the resurrection/harvest must be occured follow at Lord's coming same time, that shall be on the LAST DAY of the age.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

How long is a "DAY" with God??

And how long is the "Mill Reign", or "Seventh "DAY" of Rest"????


2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Re 20:4 and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

God wasn't joking when he said:

Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest:

Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.

What do you think is the "LAST DAY"??

The "First Resurrection" occurs with the beginning of this "LAST DAY", Jesus's return to the earth and end the trib,

however the "Rapture" occurs "BEFORE" the trib begins, it marks the Beginning of the trib, and is how Satan knows he has but a "short time".

 

Clearly you need to have the second general resurrection of the righteous future to the writing of John's letters - be called the "First Resurrection" by John.

In fact the "main" resurrection of all saints - the entire "focus" of the NT church - the focus of the promise John records in John 14:1-4 you have to "skip over" so that the SMALL resurrection of just those that died in the 7 years becomes the FIRST resurrection.

That convoluted workmanship is hard to defend either with or without the Bible.

How much easier to simply admit that the sequence in Matt 24 is correct, and the focus of the church and of John in John 14 is the VERY event John spends so much time describing in Rev 19 and 20. The very event HE calls FIRST - as in the FIRST resurrection (rather than skipping over the entire focus of the NT saints and going to the tiny resurrection at the end of the 7 years and calling that minor group THE FIRST RESURRECTION when describing it to the entire church of readers to which his letters were sent!

The bending and stretching of the imagination to accomodate your alternate scenario is beyond reason.

In Christ,

Bob

 

God can view a literal day EITEHR as 1000 years or he can view a literal 1000 years as a day. He can do it both ways at once. It is not a ruler for a timeline since it cuts both ways at once.

Obviously.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Scripture has a "DUAL APPLICATION", one "Spiritual", one "literal", to cover "BOTH" coming of Jesus.

Jesus was "Resurrected" "IN THREE DAYS", 72 hours, but being Born/crucified "in the evening" of the "FOURTH DAY", has him "Resurrected", or "BACK ON EARTH" in three of God's days, or three thousand years.

The Church in "CONFORMING TO HIS IMAGES" will also be "RESURRECTED IN THREE DAYS" same as Jesus, the "First Resurrection".

And this is just one of many ways the church will "conform to his image", another reason why Resurrection can not be used to describe the rapture because it does not occur at the prescribed time, early in the morning of the third day. (5th, 6th, 7th day)




Jesus, was Rapture off the earth.
Acts 1 9, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

Christians, will be Rapture off the earth.
First Thessolonians 4 17, Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds.


Jesus, was Resurrected in three days.
Luke 18 33, and the third day he shall rise again.

Christians, will be Resurrected in Three days.
Romans 6 5, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection.

These three days for the church are the 5th, 6th, and 7th day.

 

FEAST DAYS:



FEAST OF TRUMPETS:

This feast marks the end of the harvest, and the beginning of a new year, and corresponds to the "Rapture".

However, notice that everything in the fields was not to be harvested.

Leviticus 23 22. And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not make clean riddance of the corners of thy field when thou reapest, neither shalt thou gather any gleaning of thy harvest: thou shalt leave them unto the poor, and to the stranger: I am the LORD your God.

Jesus’s Reaping of the church in the rapture doesn’t mean that more will not be harvested or saved during the tribulations.

I'd suggest a study of the "feast days" and how they "Foreshadow" events in the NT.

 

Ed,

You mentioned on Revelation chapter 14 about the harvest. You interpreting this chapter with the outline of the timing on past, present, and future. I disagree with your intepreting.

Firstly, the book of Revelation was written in retelling the events, and it is not chronological order.

Tell me, do you think Revelation chapter 7 and chapter 14 are the same describe about the harvest? Tell me, WHEN the harvest of Revelation chapter 7 shall be occured? I remember, you did mentioned on Revelation chapter 7 shows the rapture of the church before tribulation proof pretrib. In your view of Rev. 7:14 speaks of the church shall be rapture out from tribulaiton, show that they shall be escape from tribulaiton. But, this verse shows us very clear, that they have BEEN in tribulations, that they comes OUT of it, and put robe on them.

Also, the harvest of Revelation chapter 7 puts it occured right AFTER the sixth seal occured.

Also, Revelation chapter 14 show the retelling event of 144,000 shall be gathering same as Revelation chapter 7, obivously, they shall be gathering together to meet Christ after they have been through tribulation. Rev. 14:14-20 talks about the wrath of God upon unbelievers at the harvest. Actually, both Rev. 14;1-13 of 144,000 gathering and Rev. 14:14-20 of unbelievers gathering shall be occured on the same time at the coming of Christ.

No way that you can prove us that Rev. 14:1-5 is 'PAST'. Because both Revelation 7 and 14 both placed follow after the sixth seal broken after the cosmic disturbance of Rev. 6:12-15 same with Matt. 24:29-30. That will be AFTER the tribulation.

BIble is very clear teaching us, there shall be A harvest of the world AT the Coming of the Lord, no other phase or apart times.

Matthew chapter 13 and 25:31-46 both show very, very clear that there shall be the only ONE harvest AT THE END of the age shall be at the coming of Christ - ONCE.

Also, Matthew 13 and 25 both are very clearly posttrib passage! You have to accept what Christ actual saying about what will be happen at the end of the age. Believe Him, stick with His voice.

Have a HAPPY THANKSGIVING DAY!!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

That is a very good example of two chapters pointing to the same event in terms of the saints being in heaven and having come out of that noteworthy time in World History - the time of great persecution.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Ed,

Bible teaches us, there are only two ages of God's plan. Right now, we are in THIS PRESENT age. Ed, KJV is not error for saying, 'end of the world'. It is right. we all have common sense that 'end of the age' is common or same as 'end of the age'. KJV is right, because, it tells us, right now, we in this present age, with this old planet earth, and the currently of humankind era. This world is a temporary, it will not be last forever. Because 2 Peter 3:10-13 telling us, this old earth shall be burned as destroyed by fire follow at the coming of CHrist, it will be at the end of the age.

Later this weekend, I will present verses with the parallel of 'this present age' & 'age to come' from the Bible. It teaches us very clear, there are only two ages of God's plan. This prsent age have been since for about 6,000 years with this currently humankind era, and sins too. Sins and wicked shall be all exclusion or destroyed at the end of age. So, the next age shall be the perfect condition of the world with no sin, and will be glory days, and also, there shall be immortality.

Matt. 28:19-20 telling us, Christ commands us, that we must go and preach the gospel into the world, and he said, behold, He is always with us TILL the end of the age. Tribulations must go through this present age, once Christ comes, then there shall be NO MORE tribulations again in the next age. The next age shall be eternality.

This weekend I will present verses by parallel to comparing of 'this present age' and 'next age to come' from the Bible.

Ed, I already know that you use 'ages' of Eph. 2:7; 3:5; & 3:21, to prove this word showing us, there is more than just two ages, it might be three or more ages. Eph. 2:7 tells us, Christ pour his mercy, grace upon us through all periods, means, that his mercy and grace never end, and being limited. His mercy and grace is eternality.

Eph. 3:5 tells us, during in the other ages, it was mystery to the people about Calvary. 'Other ages' is speak of the Old Testament period.

Eph. 3:21 telling us, that Christ's glory be within the Church through all ages without end. It speaks of Christ already given power and key to the Church, that Christ already glory in the Church, and He always be with the Church all the times, and even, through eternality. This verse is clearly refer to Dan. 7:14 & 27, that the Church already received the kingdom come from Christ, by give power and key to us, that we are now reigning with CHrist, and His kingdom is an everlasting.

Eph. 2:7; 3:5; & 3:21 of 'ages' don't mean it is more than just two ages or seven ages according to dispensationalism's teaching. It means, throughout all periods with no limited.

Again, I told you that, I will present verses to comparing with 'this present age' & 'age to come' with parallel from the Bible this weekend. This parallel would helping us to understand clear of comparing between them in God's plan.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

The "MAJOR DISPENSATIONS" are shown in this chart.



Jesus will come back and rule this earth during the "Seventh day", or Mill reign, Satan will be "bound up" during this time.

AFTER, the "Seventh day", Satan is loose, attacks Jerusalem, then the GWT, after which the Earth is "BURNED", and the NEW HEAVEN/EARTH, are created.


Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (seventh day)

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: (Jerusalem) and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Re 20:11 And I saw a great white throne,

You'll have to understand the "SCHEDULE" laid out in scripture to understand the scriptures.

Ex 23:12 Six days thou shalt do thy work, and on the seventh day thou shalt rest:

 

The Bible never calls anything "the Church Age" - but if you think it does - please provide a quote.

The Bible never calls anything "The age of Grace" - but if you think it does - please provide a quote.

What we do see is the "times of the gentiles" - period. All other things men "Add to it" are just that - added.

In Daniel 8 we see the "time of the end" and we see it attached to the end of the 2300 years represented by the 2300 day vision that starts with the time of Medo-Persia and ends with events long after the Greek Empire slits into 4 sections.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You can call it the "Age of tricycles" if you wish. I am just pointing out that the Bible only uses terms like "The time of the end" Daniel 8 and the "times of the Gentiles" Rev 11.

Do you admit that Rev 11 is addressing the time starting with the NT apostles?

In Christ,

Bob

 

2 Thess 2 says that our being gathered to Christ will not happen until after the antichrist the man of sin and lawlessness is seen to do his work (future to our day) and the organized church iteslf has fallen into apostacy. (See the dark ages).


The members of the Church in Thessalonica were under deception regarding the time of the resurrection of the righteous at the Coming of Christ – the Hope and focus of the NT Church. So Paul provides the much needed correction by telling them that -

1. 1, BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the revelation of the end-times antichrist "man of sin" vs 3,8

2. BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the falling away within the church - the apostasy the dark ages 3

3. BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the withdrawing of the Holy Spirit, Vs 7

4. BEFORE the resurrection they were looking for would come the revealing of Satan himself attempting to counterfeit Christ showing himself as if HE is god! Vs 4, 9

It would be wise for us to listen to those words of Paul as well since many are still deceived on those same points.

The context is the “Coming of Christ” AND “our gathering together to Him”. The rapture!

Christ said in John 14 “I GO to prepare a place for you”. We have a place in heaven – in His Father’s house. And Christ stated “I will Come AGAIN” and stated the purpose as being “THAT where I am there you may be also”.

The early church was facing the problem of false letters from Paul. The false teachers were claiming that the dead had already been raised. We see the dead raised with Christ in Matt 27 and this may be what they were referring too – using it to mislead the saints of the NT.

Paul points to the same problem when writing to Timothy –

Those letters “may have” contained doctrinal error – including the error that the return of Christ had already taken place. “The Day of the Lord” is equated here with the return – or “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ”.

Paul denies an “immediate rapture” POV – stating that certain “events must come first” including the apostasy “falling away” of the Christian church from truth. The word “anti-christ” is not used here – rather it is “son of destruction”, “man of lawlessness”.


4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

The actions of this future “man of lawlessness” is to exalt himself above “so-called-gods” (Those that are not really god) and to seat himself in the temple of god. (Given the context this may be considered as the so-called-temple of god). The real temple of God after the cross is described in Heb 8 and the statement is made that if Christ were on earth “He would NOT be a priest” in the temple on earth (Heb 8:4). A temple without priests to minister- does not “function” and can not be the temple of God.

Christ said that the leaders of the Jews sat “in the seat of Moses” (Matt 23:2) because “Moses took his seat to serve as judge” (Exodus 18:13) – it is assuming a position (of authority in this case) – not a “place” in Israel.