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Featured Why Do Men Hate God's Sovereignty in Election

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by thatbrian, Dec 14, 2017.

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  1. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member
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    Men typically have no problem with God's sovereignty in nature. He may rule the fish in the ocean and the waves of the sea. . . Men typically have no problem with God's sovereignty in governments. They allow Him to rule over the outcome of wars, the location of borders, and even US election results! However, when it comes to the clay that He has formed into men, He is bound by their actions and "free will". He must always and only act in the spaces that men's will leave open for Him to act in.

    Men hate the idea of God's sovereignty in election because they hate the idea of God's sovereignty over them.

    Do you allow for God's sovereignty except over your will? Is that the line in the sand that the King of Kings must not cross?
     
    #1 thatbrian, Dec 14, 2017
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  2. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    I love God's Sovereignty in Election. How incredible it is to watch God's hand from Genesis 3:15 all the way through Matthew 1:16!
     
    #2 JonShaff, Dec 14, 2017
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  3. InTheLight

    InTheLight Well-Known Member
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    Correction: Strawmen hate the idea of God's sovereignty in election.
     
    #3 InTheLight, Dec 14, 2017
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  4. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    The op is a strawman
     
    #4 Revmitchell, Dec 14, 2017
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  5. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Your problem is you have no idea of what God's plan is. You assume you know but you refuse to admit that God's will is that all men be saved. Not just some particular Calvinist. You deny what scripture actually says in favor of the sayings of Calvinist of the past. You hold the ideas of men as truth instead of scripture.

    This certainly isn't the Idea of God. God making all decisions for man. While men just mindlessly do and become what ever God directs, Even the sin men commit was directed by God. Leaving men innocent pawns directed by a force of God to do them. Your idea of sovereignty makes God in to a liar making Him more like Satan that Satan himself. Not to mention this idea of man is completely non biblical.
    No where in scripture is there ever even one Gentile shown to be elect.
    No where in scripture is God ever described as Sovereign. He is all mighty
    MB
    MB
     
    #5 MB, Dec 14, 2017
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  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yet none of you explain how God is Sovereign in something you control. :Whistling
     
    #6 TCassidy, Dec 14, 2017
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  7. JonShaff

    JonShaff Fellow Servant
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    Would not that be the greatest demonstration of Sovereignty? The act of giving Choice?
     
    #7 JonShaff, Dec 14, 2017
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  8. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    I have explained it over and over again on this board.
     
    #8 Revmitchell, Dec 14, 2017
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  9. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    This is a falsehood. We all believe 1 Timothy 2:4 is true.

    This is a falsehood. We all believe in the Scriptures as the supreme and final authority in all matters of faith, practice, and understanding.

    Another falsehood. People make decisions every day.

    Another falsehood. People reap the consequences of their own acts.

    This is not only a falsehood, it is a blasphemous falsehood.

    Another blasphemous falsehood.

    More blasphemous falsehood.

    Another falsehood. Colossians 3:11,12.

    "He is before all things, and in him all things hold together" (Colossians 1:17).

    Psalm 115:3 “Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.”

    Proverbs 16:9 “The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.”

    Genesis 50:20 “As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today.”

    Romans 8:28 “And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.”

    Isaiah 40:23 “who brings princes to nothing, and makes the rulers of the earth as emptiness.”

    2 Chronicles 20:6 “O Lord, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you.”

    Zechariah 4:6 “This is the word of the Lord to Zerubbabel: Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, says the Lord of hosts.”

    To deny the Sovereignty of God is to deny the Transcendental God of the Bible.
     
    #9 TCassidy, Dec 14, 2017
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  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Show me.
     
    #10 TCassidy, Dec 14, 2017
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  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    No, not the greatest, but certainly one aspect of His Sovereignty. We all make choices every day. Good people (in whom dwells the Holy Spirit) make good (we hope) choices and evil people make evil choices. Each person makes choices according to their nature.
     
    #11 TCassidy, Dec 14, 2017
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  12. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    #12 Revmitchell, Dec 14, 2017
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  13. JonShaff

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    So good people can make good and evil choices and evil people can only make evil choices?
     
    #13 JonShaff, Dec 14, 2017
  14. Revmitchell

    Revmitchell Well-Known Member
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    Lost people make good choices even biblical choices. Lost people help the poor and the widows selflessly. Lost people often treat their families in a biblical manner at least in part. Etc.
     
    #14 Revmitchell, Dec 14, 2017
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  15. MB

    MB Well-Known Member

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    Sovereignty is in the mind of the Calvinist not scripture. God is all mighty. Calvinist say God is Sovereign and then restrict God from giving men the right to choose who they will serve. There idea of Sovereign is limited to the false doctrine of Calvinism.
    MB
     
    #15 MB, Dec 14, 2017
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  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes. Good (saved) people have two natures, the old man, and the new man. So either can influence the choice.

    The evil (unsaved) people only have one nature, the old man, who will influence every choice.
     
    #16 TCassidy, Dec 14, 2017
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  17. TCassidy

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    Matt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

    Matt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

    Matt 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

    Luke 6:43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
     
    #17 TCassidy, Dec 14, 2017
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  18. TCassidy

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    #18 TCassidy, Dec 14, 2017
  19. JonShaff

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    So a lost person saving a child from drowning is evil, got it. You make no sense.
     
    #19 JonShaff, Dec 14, 2017
  20. JonShaff

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    Matthew 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

    [Edited: Name calling.]
     
    #20 JonShaff, Dec 14, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 14, 2017
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