2ed of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Well we agree on one thing at least.

Indeed - resurrection and both the living and the dead taken TOGETHER - "TO MEET HIM" to "BE WITH THE LORD" at "THE COMING OF the LORD".

So far ... so good.

2Thess 2:1

So 2Thess2 and 1Thess 4 - same subject. Our being gatherted "TOGETHER" to "HIM" at "THE COMING OF OUR LORD".

And now we see the events that MUST preceed that --

Crystal clear!

No mention here of "Jesus' Return to Earth" other than the SAME "Coming of the LORD" seen in BOTH 1Thess 4 and in 2Thess2. The SAME - one and ONLY event Christ points to in John 14:1-3.

So far - so good.

So far - prefectly clear from the text.


So when John provides even MORE detail about that one and only event - in Rev 19-20 he tells us that the 1Thess 4 "resurrection" is in fact "the FIRST resurrection" the one that happens at the "coming of the LORD".

Both 2Thess 2 and 1Thess 4 speak of the same event "the Coming of the Lord"

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.

And John 14 shows that promise "I will come again"

as surely as John tells us in Rev 20 that the "FIRST resurrection" is the one that happens at the coming of the Lord in Rev 19.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You got that part right.

Now there you are derailed. The Bible only points to a single event as we have seen in 1Thess 4 and 2Thess 2 -- they both describe the same event - they call it the "coming of the Lord" and our gathering together to Him!

In Christ,

Bob

 

BTW - ALL Bible timelines are contiguous!

As are ALL predictive timelines (else they could not be used as predictive timelines).

And JUST as we see in Daniel 9:1-3 that the 70 YEARS timeline of Jeremiah's prediction are ALL contiguous SO ALS at the end of Dan 9 the 70 weeks timeline (490 years) are ALL contiguous.

This basic point is as obviously true in Dan 9 as it is in ALL Bible timelines!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

You got that part right.

Now there you are derailed. The Bible only points to a single event as we have seen in 1Thess 4 and 2Thess 2 -- they both describe the same event - they call it the "coming of the Lord" and our gathering together to Him!

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Da 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week:

and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


OK, "WHERE" does this verse "FIT IN"???

Can't be the AC, his "covenant" only last a "HALF WEEK", or until the "ABOD", (abomination of desolation) however this verse says "ONE WEEK", and it's the "WEEK" of the "Trib".

"WHO" in scripture is "promised" to "ESCAPE" the trib??

Re 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Lu 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass,

"NO BODY" can make the "ONE WEEK" fit into scripture "ANY PLACE" "EXCEPT" the week it describes, the TRIB, or the "CONFIRMING" of a covenant for "ONLY A WEEK" "EXCEPT" with the "CHURCH" and a "PRE TRIB RAPTURE".

I'l save you the trouble of trying to refute it, others have, it's not possible,

this is the "ONE VERSE" that "CONFIRMS" a "PRE TRIB RAPTURE".

Jesus doesn't "DESTROY" the AC until the "END OF THE TRIB" when he "RETURNS" to the earth.

2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

Not quite, look at this chart.



The "5th, 6th, days" are "TWO DAYS" (1000 years) of a "GAP" between the 69th and 70th week (trib) of Daniels prophecy.

This is the time Israel is "blinded in part" or the "time of the Gentiles".

Ro 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Even the OT, (interpreted literally) speaks of these "TWO DAYS".

Ho 6:2 After two days (5th,6th) will he revive us: in the third day (7th) he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

Jew won't believe without "signs and wonders" under the law and prophets, which Jesus won't give, so "Leadership" by "BOTH", Holy Ghost/Law prophets

DO NOT function at the same time, in the same time frame,

this is why Israel won't go back under the law and prophets (two witnesses/trib) until "AFTER" Jesus is finished with the church, (Fulness of the Gentiles/rapture)

 

Hosea 6:2 predicts of Christ's resurrection, as Christ told them, that he will raise it up in three days according in John 2:19-21.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

The chart references "no prophecy at ALL" for its gap!!

In Dan 9:1-3 we see the REAL timeline prophecy of 70 years. An explicit prediction not an "imagined one".

In the last part of Dan 9 we see an explicit 490 year timeline prophecy (70 weeks) not an "imagined prediction".

Those are REAL timelines - they can not be hacked up into bits to fit some preconceived idea.

But you are taking 7 days of creation week "the ACCOUNT of the creation of the heavens and the earth" Gen 2:3-5 and "imagining" that it might be bent to your usages as a predictive timeline for chopping up.

While this may be enjoyable as a fun exercise it is not exegesis, it is not a predictive timeline and the literal 7 days are "not chopped up" in the "historic ACCOUNT".

It is history - not a predictive timeline for the future that can be sliced up.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The chart references "no prophecy at ALL" for its gap!!

In Dan 9:1-3 we see the REAL timeline prophecy of 70 years. An explicit prediction not an "imagined one".

In the last part of Dan 9 we see an explicit 490 year timeline prophecy (70 weeks) not an "imagined prediction".

Those are REAL timelines - they can not be hacked up into bits to fit some preconceived idea.

But you are taking 7 days of creation week "the ACCOUNT of the creation of the heavens and the earth" Gen 2:3-5 and "imagining" that it might be bent to your usages as a predictive timeline for chopping up.

While this may be enjoyable as a fun exercise it is not exegesis, it is not a predictive timeline and the literal 7 days are "not chopped up" in the "historic ACCOUNT".

It is history - not a predictive timeline for the future that can be sliced up.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning,

The same "pattern of days" described for the world "Beginning" is also the same "Pattern of days" described for it's "END",

Six days of "work" and another "Day of Rest", or "Seventh day", which we call the MK.

"Exegesis" will get you precisely where you are at, "",

I'd suggest using the "HOLY GHOST" as "INSTRUCTOR", he's "FREE" and "NEVER" wrong.

Scripture is divided (hacked) up into different "Dispensations", that of the OT, and of the NT.

Under the OT, the "law and prophet" was the system of leadership, the NT uses the "Holy Ghost", the "Voice of Jesus", which the Jews rejected.

The "Comforter" is unique to the church age, being "Greater than Satan", "HE" must be "taken out of the way" before the AC can have "DOMINION" over "ALL" kindren, tongues and nations.

Ec 4:1 So I returned, and considered all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold the tears of such as were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.


And the "Comforter" is the means which Jesus said "HE" (Jesus/comforter) would be "WITH US" until the "end of the world", when the Comforter leaves, the church leaves. (rapture)

Israel goes back under the system of "law and prophets" during the trib. (Two witnesses, Moses/Elijah)

Leadership by "BOTH", Law and prophets/Holy Ghost

DO NOT FUNCTION AT THE SAME TIME, IN THE SAME TIME FRAME

The "L/P" stopped when Jesus started preaching and won't return until "Jesus's voice" (HG) stops preaching. (rapture/comforter taken out)

And we still have that "LAST WEEK" of Daniels 70 week prophecy to fulfil, you can't say it isn't "hacked up".

 

Scripture has both a ""Spiritual" and "literal" application/interpretation.

You have to use the "TRINITY" to interpret the Bible.

 

The 70 years of Jeremiah and the 70 weeks of Daniel are two "actual timelines" prophetic future timelines with quantifiable numeric assignment given.

"Obviously" a timeline like any ruler for time works in a way that by knowing the starting point and applying the timeline number given - you know the end point.

If you try to "equivocate" OUT of actual timelines and generalize in a way that ANY prediction about ANY future event is reworked BACK into your new loose definition of "timeline" then you mix predictions that HAVE no numeric timeline given with those that do in an effort to mask the chop-and-dice splicing that you need to do in Dan 9.

While the tactic may be convenient if you "need it" to cover something up - it is hardly exegesis, or logical, or rational. It is simply a game, a trick needed to cover up what your model "needs to do to the timline of the 70 weeks".

In Christ,

Bob

 

Wrong.

The abomination of deolation is clearly the act of the SAME force that is said to destroy the city of Jerusalem. It happens OUTSIDE of that 490 year timeline as EVEN CHRIST identifies it as FUTURE to His day and pertaining to the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. (Obviously).

The 490 Years ENDS with the last week being the week of the Messiah - in the midst of that week the Messiah is cut off. Christ dies after His 3.5 year ministry.

At the START of the that 70th week (which is right at the end of the 69th we have the "annointed one" the MESSIAH showing up for His ministry and annointed by the Holy Spirit at His Baptism).

Your slice and dice job on the 490 year timeline guts the timeline JUST when it gets to "Messiah the Prince" so that NO Messianic event IN this greatest of all Messianic TIMELINE prophecies is LEFT IN IT!!

How tragic!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While this may be enjoyable as a fun exercise it is not exegesis,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hey! We agree on something. I am using Exegesis and you are not!!

In fact you think Exegesis is "a bad thing"!!

So at least our starting position is clear!

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. There is NO "42 month" timeline given in Daniel 9.

#2. ALL Bible timelines are contiguous - without exception. The 70 years of Jeremiah in Dan 9:1-4 attest to that fact at the very START of the chapter the gives us the 490 year timeline for the Messiah.

#3. "At the end of the 69th week" we always have the start of the 70'th week JUST as at the end of the 68th week the 69th week started. "There shall be 69 weeks (483 years) and then begins the time of the Messiah" - the Annointed one. At the end of the 483 years Christ is Baptized - right on schedule.

#3. In the midst of that week the Messiah is cut off - He causes sacrifices and offerings to cease JUST as Heb 10 says He does.

#4. At the START of that week (7 years) He confirms the covenant - the "The New Covenant in My Blood" JUST as Christ said He did! IN 2 Peter 1 Peter says "We have the word of Prophecy made more sure" by the mission and ministry of Christ.

So although your model needs to reject EVERY Messianic act DESCRIBED in Daniel 9's 490 timeline FROM that timeline - the Bible truth is it REMAINS IN the timeline!

In Christ,

Bob

 

That is not true.

The 69th week ends thus STARTING the 70th week of the TIMELINE. Nothing could be more obvious.

At the end of that 69th week the Messiah is to being his work - and he did - right on time.

IN the MIDST of that Week the Messiah is "cut off" and as HE says in Heb 10 He causes "Sacrifices and offerings to cease".

But the Roman power - that is predicted in Daniel 7 and described as a dragon, that is predicted in Daniel 8 as the little horn that grows "exceedingly great" by comparison to the Greek empire - is Rome. Rome destroys the Jerusalem in 70AD.

The SAME City that Daniel 7 predicts as being "rebuilt" (the decreed that STARTS the 490 year timeline) is the SAME city that is destroyed in that prophetic prediction of the future -- 70AD. So although the 70 weeks ends a mere 3.5 years after the Cross (at the time that Stephen is stoned and Acts 13 Paul says they are turning to the Gentiles - marking the end of the Hebrew nation Church age) - the chapter shows the events that follow that 70 week - 490 year timeline to include the destruction of the city whose restoration STARTS the 490 year clock.

Your view must suppose that the city destroyed IS NOT the city built in Daniel 9.

Your view must suppose that EVERY Messianic event PREDICTED in this greatest of all Messianic Timelines is EXCLUDED from that Timeline.

Your view takes the act of the Messiah in confirming the New Covenant of promise -- and replaces him with the AC.

So after exclucing the Messiah from this Messianic prophecy, substituting in the AC for Christ and arranging it so that the city of Jerusalem destroyed IS NOT the Jerusalem that was built up, and then slicing and dicing this 490 year timeline so that it spans UNKNOWN GAPS of time... What did all taht eisegesis buy you?

Why go through all that trouble to destroy this magnificent Messianic timeline? What is the point?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Indeed He did in that 490 year timeline the time for the Hebrew nation "your people" was completely alloted. They were to either accept or reject their Messiah then.

In Heb 7-10 we see Christ annointing the Most Holy place of the Heavenly Sanctury (Heb 9).

In 1Thess 2 we see that the "Cup of iniquity is filled" for the Jewish Nation.

In Matt 23 Christ predicts that event.

All vision and prophecy pertaining to Israel ends in that 490 year timeline and so as Paul points out in Romans 9 it continues now through the "Children of the Promise" rather than a literal physical nation.

The 490 years have long since ended.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Indeed He did in that 490 year timeline the time for the Hebrew nation "your people" was completely alloted. They were to either accept or reject their Messiah then.

In Heb 7-10 we see Christ annointing the Most Holy place of the Heavenly Sanctury (Heb 9).

In 1Thess 2 we see that the "Cup of iniquity is filled" for the Jewish Nation.

In Matt 23 Christ predicts that event.

All vision and prophecy pertaining to Israel ends in that 490 year timeline and so as Paul points out in Romans 9 it continues now through the "Children of the Promise" rather than a literal physical nation.

The 490 years have long since ended.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

"THY PEOPLE", Jews, "Holy City", Jerusalem.

If the 70 weeks are "Finished", as in "WITH THE JEWS", why are 144000 "JEWS" sealed during the trib??

ALl those things promised to occur within the 70 weeks still haven't been fulfilled, where "THY PEOPLE" and "HOLY CITY" are concerned.

1. to finish the transgression,
2. and to make an end of sins,
3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
6. and to anoint the most Holy.

Is this "Replacement Theology" as in the church "Replaced Israel"???