Confusion on just what is PSA

God the father Himself determined that to happen, correct? Did not use "middlemen", but God Himself nailed Jesus upon that Christ for our sake, and Jesus agreed to that?

 

The Cross was from eternity past agreed upon by all of the trinity, as those against Pst seem they see Jesus as being the innocent party being violated by wrathful God!

 

he who knew no sin became sin for us, and while upon the Cross, the Father treated Him same way all lost are, forsaken and afflicted of God!

 

We certainly agree on this, which is a start. It was God's pre-determined plan that Christ become a curse. But we are still left with Deuteronomy 21:23: 'For He who is hanged [on a tree] is cursed by God.' This text was obviously in the mind of the Holy Spirit when He caused Peter to write, 'He Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree.' Peter could very easily have written 'cross' instead of 'tree.' The reason he wrote 'tree' is to enforce the teaching, already made clear in Galatians 3:13, that our Lord was carrying a curse-- and it is the curse of God against sin, and 'sin is the transgression of the law' (1 John 3:4, KJV), and 'cursed is the one who does not confirm all the words of this law' (Deuteronomy 27:26). None of us keeps God's law (Romans 3:9-19; James 2:10). Therefore the curse of God is on all of us and we are all 'by nature objects of wrath' (Ephesians 2:1-3).

What is this curse of God? It is this: 'The soul that sins shall die,' and 'after this, the judgement.' What does that look like? 2 Thessalonians 1:9. 'These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.'

But it was God's will that Christ should be 'made sin for us' (2 Corinthians 5:21). What does that mean? Isaiah 53:6 tells us: 'The LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all.' He is our Surety. He undertakes for us in every respect that which we cannot do for ourselves (Romans 5:6-8). All the sins of God's elect were laid upon the sinless shoulders of Christ and He bore the penalty of them on the cross, and that must include the curse, because we are told in Isaiah 53:5, the chastisement for our peace was upon Him.' How could men and women be at peace with God if His curse were still upon them? He bore the wrath of God (remember Eph.2:3) and He bore the curse of God (remember Deut. 21:23), which were not upon Him as the sinless, spotless, beloved Son, but as the sin-bearer (cf. Leviticus 16:21-22), suffering outside the camp (Hebrews 13:12).

The result of this is that Christians are made 'the righteousness of God in Him.' This is Luther's 'great exchange:' our sins and wickedness are laid upon Him and He pays the penalty and bears the wrath and the curse, and His perfect obedience and righteousness are credited to them. 'But of [God] you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God-- and righteousness and sanctification and redemption.'

 

Jesus while upon the Cross tasted what all lost sinners will forever in Hell. That is what I believed he was dealing with in the Garden,a s jesus knew that at that time, he would taste forsaken by the Father, as he took upon Himself the Cup of wrath.

 

was that determined/caused by the Father?

 

Well, as I have said before, I am not really trying to persuade you (though that would be nice). I leave others to my post #84 with which you are obviously unwilling or unable to interact.

On the cross, I think you'll find it does.

I am finished on this subject until after Christmas, when I have another extended post to make (DV). All my children will be home this Christmas for the first time in three years so Mrs Marprelate and I shall be making them our priority for a while

 

You and yours too!

 

Jon, how would you characterize your view of the atonement? Would it fit into any of the established theories?

 

I think your view and mine are very close.

I wanted to ask, have you had a personal experience of Jesus? If so, could you describe it? if you would rather respond to this via PM, I'll understand.

 

Do you mean did Jesus appear to him, or speak to him in a voice?

 

I mean in whatever way.

 

I, too, was raised in the church and can't remember a time when I didn't believe. But after I grew up, I had a crisis of faith and very briefly became an agnostic. The early Quakers and Anabaptists brought me back to faith, and when I watched the movie Jesus of Nazareth, starring Robert Powell, it had a profound impact on me. I began in-depth study of the Bible, especially the New Testament.

Over the years, I have had a few experiences in which I knew God spoke to me, greatly helping me through extremely difficult situations. The last time this happened was when my mom died last February.

Had it not been for my study of atonement in the earliest churches, I don't know what I would have done. I could not accept penal substitution, satisfaction, or any of the other Latinized or modern atonement theories.

As much as I hold doctrine to be important, I have come to believe that actions are more important -- the way we treat others, love for God, humans, and the creation.

 

How do you feel about the new 2000 BF&M of the SBC?