Mixing Faith With Hearing

Sorry Ray. Ephesians 2:8-9 clearly states that our faith is not of ourselves but the gift of God.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)

 

That is hardly possible. The genders do not agree. "THIS" refers back to the fact of having been saved. Salvation is a gift of God.

 

I always found it interesting that the writer of Hebrews equates faith with obedience:

Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, UNBELIEVING heart that falls away from the living God.... And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were DISOBEDIENT? So we see that they were not able to enter because of UNBELIEF..... the word they heard did not profit them, because it was not united by FAITH in those who heard.... Therefore, since it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly had good news preached to them failed to enter because of DISOBEDIENCE.... Therefore let us be diligent to enter that rest, so that no one will fall, through following the same example of DISOBEDIENCE.

And then the writer finishes off this warning to them by reminding them of judgment day when Jesus will judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart:

For the Word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart.

 

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast." (NIV)

"through" - by reason of, due to, on account of.

Our salvation is "due to" faith, faith is a prerequisite for obtaining salvation. Faith must be present first before we receive salvation. "THIS" refers back to "salvation through faith," both are not from yourselves.

 

To obtain employment one usually completes an application, it is through this application that the employer may decide to hire you.

You certainly don't need a high school education to understand this.

 

You have grace coming before faith, its not that way, it is faith before salvation.

Robertson has it right.

"Condition" - necessary situation or stipulation.

Faith is necessary in order to be saved by grace.

 

You are both right. God's grace came way before our faith was present, and our faith is what is required by God for salvation

 

I'm done with you two. Actually our faith, God's grace, salvation, regeneration and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit are simultaneous. You cannot have one without the others. Bye.

 

I did not realize we were saved by our works. If faith is the result of a rational human being then it is by a human work we earn the right to recieve God's grace.

 

False. Receiving a gift by definition means no work was involved. That is the same faulty thinking of calvinists.

 

And yet you take and turn faith into a human work, therefore, faith as the only means by which we can recieve God's grace makes it a means of earning God's grace.

Hebrew 4:1-2 doesn't even touch on the source of faith. It only describes a people who have rejected the promise.

A gift once given belongs to the person who it was given. I can call it mine all I want for it is mine but I recieved it as a gift, I did not make a rational decision to get it. It came from God as a gift.

This is the most debated test in terms of the antecedento fthe demonstrative pronoun, touto. The standard interpretations include (1) "grace" as antecendent, (2) "faith" as antecedent, (3) the concept of a grace by faith salvation as antecedent, and (4) kai touto having adverbial force with no antecedent ("and especially").

The first and second options suffer from the fact that touto is neuter while chariti and piteos are feminine. Some have argued that the gender shift causes no problem because there are other examples in Greek lit. in which a neuter demonstrative refers back to a noun of a different gender, and the touto has been attracted to the gender of doron, the predicate nominative. These two arguments need to be examined together.

While it is true that on rare occasions there is a gender shift between antecedent and pronoun, the pronoun is almost always caught between two nouns of different gender. ONe is the antecedent; the other is the predicate noun i.e. Acts 8:10 and Matt 13:38. The construction of Eph 2:8, however, is not parallel becasue doron is not the predicate nom. of touto, but of the implied "it" in the following clause. On a Grammatical level, then, it is doubtful that either "faith" or "grace" is the antecedent of touto.

More plausible is the third view, viz., that touto refers to the concept of a grace-by-faith salvation. As we have seen, touto regularly takes a conceptual antecedent. Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics Wallace, 334-5

Since touto, refers to both than neither can be the result of any human effort, which means faith cannot be as you state the result of a rational human mind.

 

Where did you come up with that non-sense? Obeying a command means doing work, no matter who gives the command. A commandment is a law, and for a law to be obeyed work must be done.

Whoever states the above will only lead people into despair. For who ever hears the above and believes that it is their decision that created faith will only despair everytime they experience doubt for they will forever wonder did they really decide to follow Christ. Salvation is based on the promises of God, not by an experience or by what a person does. Thank goodness it is not based on the decision of a rational human mind, for there is no such thing as a rational human mind and there never will be until the 2nd coming, because all minds until that time are bound by sin. No person by their reason or strength can come to believe in Jesus Christ. It is only through the work of the Holy Spirit that faith can happen.

Of course anybody who replies in the way you did, is obviously trying to compensate for a position they realize is weak.

 

Mr, Berrian,

If you question my honesty and salvation again, I will complain to the moderators.

The greek grammars do not agree with you.

Hebrews 11:6 does not say a thing concerning the source of faith and so is not pertinant to the discussion.