What about Prophets in todays world??

Of course there are prophets today. They are the Pastors of the Lutheran Church excluding ELCA. For Lutheran Pastors are the only ones who do not preach a Gospel message intermingled with the Law.

 

As long as the canon is considered closed there can't be any prophets that people will heed because prophecy is scripture.

 

Billwald,

I agree with you there are no apostles or prophets in our times. I believe there are pastors and evangelists, some who are worthy of the title and other who are not worthy spokespersons.

Preaching to get other people to give you money so the preacher can build a million dollar home surely is the wrong emphasis as I read it in the N.T.

Give to a ministry so the Gospel leading to salvation can be experienced is the right kind of ministry to relate to as Christians. This kind of giving is wonderful!

There were only twelve 'Apostles.' The 'prophets' were more of an O.T. kind of person and word usage.

 

Oh, come now. The Lutherans have all the truth? Why are you on a Baptist board?

 

I agree with you that the canon is closed. There will be no "fore-telling" prophets in this age. However, is there any reason the prophet's "forth-telling" function does not exist?

I have not studied this out in detail like I did the apostleship issue, so I'll be following this thread with interest.

 

2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.


1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy;

1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.

Prophesying today would be the teaching/revealing of the scripture, which everyone doesn't understands, and in their case, would be a "New Revelation" to them.

 

Propose a new and unique interpretation of existing scripture.

 

I believe this is pretty close to the view of John R. Rice, Me4Him. He even interpreted prophesying sometimes as just giving the Gospel, for example in the case of the four daughters of Philip the evangelist (Acts 21:8-9)

 

Ray, you must have completely missed the thread on apostleship. Not to hijack the thread, but there were many more than 12 who were called apostles in the NT. Start with Acts 14:14 and work it out.

And no, the prophets were not just OT, they existed after Pentecost. Check out Acts 15:32, Acts 21:10-11, Eph. 4:11, etc. This won't go away and you can't ignore it. You have to interpret it someway.

 

You can make some arguments that 'scripture is prophecy.' But if you are arguing that all prophecy is scripture, you are contradicting the Bible. The Bible mentions prophecies and revelations that are not included in the Bible. Let me give you some examples:

Show me in the Bible:

--The words found in the book of Iddo the Seer.
--The words of the prophecies the prophets who met Saul prophesied.
--the words of Saul's prophecies on the two occasions he prophesied.
--the prophecies of Micaiah before the one he gave about Ahab dying. From the context, it is clear that Ahab had heard him prophesy before.
--The last thunder clap that John was told not to include in the book of Revelation.
--The unspeakable things that a man was not to utter given to the man Paul (perhaps Paul) Paul wrote about in II Corinthians.
--The acts and words of Christ that John supposed could not be included in all the books in the world. Christ is the ultimate Revelation of God to man, the Word of God.

Since scripture is clear that there is revelation outside of scripture, then it makes no sense to argue that there can be no more prophecy today because the canon is closed. If someone is not trying to add his prophecy to the Bible, he is not adding to the canon.

Also, since this is a Baptist board, many of the people are futurist in their understanding of the book of Revelation. If this is correct, then in the FUTURE the two witnesses will prophesy, and Babylon will or has persecuted prophets along with other saints.

 

John of Japan

Could you show me where scripture teaches that there will be no more fore-telling in this age? Can't God say whatever He wants?

What is prophecy?

'Prophecy' and 'prophet' in the New Testament are roughly the same as what they were in the Old Testament. My evidence for this is that the New Testament uses the Greek words for 'prophet' and 'prophecy' to refer to OT prophets and translates these terms with the equivilent Greek terms.

If we can figure out what prophecy was in the Old Testament, we can figure out what it is now.

II Peter 1
21. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Here we see a good description of prophecy, speaking as moved by the Holy Ghost. This is a rule of thumb-definition, since prophecy can be done on musical instruments or can be sung or written. But in general, prophecy is speaking as moved by the Holy Spirit.

 

Quote by Tam:
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Are there true Prophets in todays world?
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Quote by Link:
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If this is correct, then in the FUTURE the two witnesses will prophesy, and Babylon will or has persecuted prophets along with other saints.
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A resounding YES!

 

I view "prophecy" as foretelling the future, and when we preach to people if they're saved, they'll go to Heaven and if unsaved to hell, we're actually "prophecying" their future.

And this holds true for all "future" events (trib/Judgment/etc) that are "prophesied".

Prophecy is revealing the "Unknown", and not everyone "knows" the scriptures, that why some are given the "GIFT" of prophecy, to make the "unknown", "Known".

 

"Foretelling" is the secular definition of prophesying. Prophets in scripture communicated a message from God. Sometimes that was about the future. Sometimes it was about the present or even the past.

 

Hi, Link. As a famous philosopher said, "Soitenly!"

Now I'm probably going to disappoint you, since I won't use 1 Cor. 13:8. I don't believe in "unknown tongues"; I believe that the Greek "glossa" should be translated "language" and "dialektos" should be translated "dialect." We still have languages, but languages and prophecies will cease in Heaven.

I do believe the Holy Spirit may lead me to either plan a certain way for the future or to advise someone else on their planning. In other words, I do believe in the Holy Spirit's leadership, but I do not believe He leads verbally (meaning with words).

Here is why I do not believe that there is fore-telling prophecy in the church age.

(1) I believe the canon is complete (Rev. 22:18-19). A verbal prophecy would be adding to the verbal Word of God and thus would re-open the canon.

(2) I am a premillenialist. I believe in an imminent rapture. The Bible teaches that we should be ready at any time for the 2nd Coming (Matt. 22:44). This mitigates against verbal prophecy in the Church Age.

(3) The Bible teaches that we should not concern ourselves with the future (Matt. 6:25:35). It also teaches that we should not even say with certainty what we are going to do tomorrow, but should say, "If it's the Lord's will, I will..." (James 4:13-15). If we are specifically told here that "Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow," why would God change that by giving us prophecies?

 

John of Japan wrote,

**I do believe the Holy Spirit may lead me to either plan a certain way for the future or to advise someone else on their planning. In other words, I do believe in the Holy Spirit's leadership, but I do not believe He leads verbally (meaning with words).**

Why not? The scripture shows the Holy Spirit speaking through words. “Word of Wisdom” and “Word of Knowledge” are gifts. Where does the Bible say that He stopped doing so? Can’t the Holy Spirit help give someone called before governors or kings the words to say these days like He did before? Can’t He help people preach? Haven’t you ever heard of or experienced someone speaking under the anointing who spoke to a specific situation, perhaps without even realizing that he was doing so? For example, when a preacher says something that really hits the nail on the head in a personal situation, or when someone prays for someone else and prays about a situation they have not been told about?


**(1) I believe the canon is complete (Rev. 22:18-19). A verbal prophecy would be adding to the verbal Word of God and thus would re-open the canon.**

This opens a real can of worms since the doctrine of the canon is not a scriptural doctrine per se. The Bible doesn’t give us a list of books to be in the canon.

Secondly, what do you say to my argument, before, that the Bible shows us that not all revelation from God is in the Bible. The Bible speaks positively of many prophecies that are not recorded in the Bible, that were truly from God. If those were not added to the Bible, why would a modern prophecy have to be?

**(2) I am a premillenialist. I believe in an imminent rapture. The Bible teaches that we should be ready at any time for the 2nd Coming (Matt. 22:44). This mitigates against verbal prophecy in the Church Age.**

I think you mean Matthew 24:44. Jesus taught us to be watching and to see the signs. He did not say, as some teach, that nothing had to be fulfilled before He would come again.

Paul wrote in II Thessalonians 2

** 2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4. Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.***


The day of Christ will not come until the man of sin is revealed. There are some things that have to happen, but we must watch for the signs.

But even if you do hold to an imminent return, that still does not argue against prophecy. If ‘imminent return’ is a Biblical doctrine, it was a Biblical doctrine when Paul was ministering. That did not stop people from making predictive prophecies in his day. It did not stop John from making predictive prophecies. Where is the Bible verse that teaches that Jesus’ return became imminent when John wrote the last word in Revelation? The Bible does not teach that. If there could be predictive prophecies when the first century Christians were expecting Christ, then there can be predictive prophecies today.


**(3) The Bible teaches that we should not concern ourselves with the future (Matt. 6:25:35).**

The King James translated a Greek word about being ‘anxious’ into 1611 English as ‘take thought.’ ‘Take thought’ here means to worry, and we can see that from the context. The context is about not worrying about where our food and clothing will come from in the future.

Besides, if the Holy Spirit reveals the future, the prophet is speaking what the Holy Spirit is telling him. That does not mean he is talking because he is concerned about the future.

If not ‘taking thought’ means not to even think about the future at all, even what God reveals about it, then it would be wrong to think about Matthew 24 or the book of Revelation.

** It also teaches that we should not even say with certainty what we are going to do tomorrow, but should say, "If it's the Lord's will, I will..." (James 4:13-15). If we are specifically told here that "Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow," why would God change that by giving us prophecies?**

I think you overlook the fact that this passage was written to Christians who lived in a time when predictive prophecies were being given. If this passage forbids predictive prophecies, then it makes other passages of scripture wrong. James is clearly not saying predictive prophecies are wrong. He is writing against boasting, as we see in verse 16.

16. But now ye rejoice in your boastings: all such rejoicing is evil.

True prophecies from the Spirit about the future are not men’s boastings. Btw, when you state your plans about the future, do you say, ‘If the Lord wills.’ It is sad that more Muslims seem to obey this, or something similar, than Christians do.

So, the ‘taking thought’ passage is about worrying, and if it forbade prophesying the future, it would forbid passages of scripture from being written. If imminent return outlawed future prophecy, then it would have allowed some of the passages of scripture. If James teaching on not boasting about the future forbad predictive prophecy, then he would have been outlawing passages of scripture that were written later.

 

There is a danger in phrophecies and the belief that they are a necessity in this church age. It could possibly push a Christian to seek one rather than to depend upon Gods Word. The Holy Spirit has come for one purpose. To point to Jesus Christ. The Bible is Jesus Christ in bookform. It reveals the absolute truths of our Savior, Lord and King. Why would we depend on anything other than that? There are many people who feel like they are being lead by the Holy Spirit in their lives that do not take time to read and study God's Word. It is absurd to believe that the Holy Spirit of our Almighty God would speak to someone that doesn't care enough to read His Word by which we learn of His wonderful Salvation. Therefore, it is my belief that the only message a Christian in that situation will ever recieve from the Holy Spirit is "Read your Bible for the answers" , and that will continue to be the message until that individual submits. It is a faith relationship and fellowship!

Matt. 24:44 clearly states that Christ will come at a most unexpected MOMENT in history. In II Thessalonians 2, Paul is encouraging the church as well as refreshing their memory concerning the prophecy of the Lord's return. He doesn't actually say that they would know who the "son of perdition" is. He tells us what we do know in verse seven. That is "the mystery of iniquity doth already work". The spirit of anti-christ has been at work sense the beginning of the church age and it is getting stronger. The key is the second portion of verse seven: "only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way". Of whom, is this speaking? It would be none other than the Holy Spirit that dwells in God's people. When will He be "taken out of the way"? When God's people are "taken" in the rapture. The Holy Spirit cannot be separated from the believer. When the rapture takes place, the church and the Holy Spirit will leave this world. In verse eight we see: And then shall that Wicked be revealed,..... This chapter isn't giving the church the responsibilty of watching for the sign of the antichrist but rather to watch for the King of Kings in the rapture.

Paul seems to be repeating something that he has already taught the church of Thessalonica.
If you notice in verse two he is trying to encourage them not to be troubled, then he directly moves to the subject of the return of Christ. The rapture isn't personally troubling to the Child of God, but having to endure the tribulation is very unsettling to anyone. Paul is trying to put their theology back on track. "the day of Christ" is speaking of the second coming of Christ when He comes with a vengence to make His enemies His footstool. It is 100% legitimate to say that the antichrist will be revealed as such after the rapture.

 

Cojosh wrote

**There is a danger in phrophecies and the belief that they are a necessity in this church age. It could possibly push a Christian to seek one rather than to depend upon Gods Word.**

If we use the term ‘word of the Lord’ as it is used in scripture, then we might be referring to prophecies as ‘the word of the Lord’. The term ‘word of God’ is used in a rather general sense, and I do not know of any passage in the Bible where it is used to refer specifically to the 66 canonical books of scripture.

** The Holy Spirit has come for one purpose. To point to Jesus Christ. The Bible is Jesus Christ in bookform.**

I find that last statement of yours rather troubling. Where does the Bible teach that Jesus is the Bible in book form? John wrote in the Bible that he did not suppose that if all the acts of Christ were written down, the world could not contain the books. How then could the person of Christ be condensed into ‘book form’?

**It reveals the absolute truths of our Savior, Lord and King. Why would we depend on anything other than that?**

Well, if we open the book up and read it, it tells us that prophecy is one of the gifts of the Spirit. So we should accept what the Bible teaches about prophecy instead of using human reasoning to say that if we have the Bible, we don’t need one of the things the Bible tells us to desire. The Bible says to covet to prophesy. So if we respect the Bible, we need to obey this teaching.


** There are many people who feel like they are being lead by the Holy Spirit in their lives that do not take time to read and study God's Word. It is absurd to believe that the Holy Spirit of our Almighty God would speak to someone that doesn't care enough to read His Word by which we learn of His wonderful Salvation.**

It is a problem if people seek prophecies and don’t bother to study the Bible. However, God can do what He wants and if He wants to speak through a prophecy to someone who does not read the Bible, that is His sovereign choice, whether it makes sense to us or not.


** Therefore, it is my belief that the only message a Christian in that situation will ever recieve from the Holy Spirit is "Read your Bible for the answers" , and that will continue to be the message until that individual submits. It is a faith relationship and fellowship!**

If you asked enough people, you will probably find people who will tell you that the Holy Spirit convicted them of their sin, and did not just say ‘read the Bible.’