What about Prophets in todays world??

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Tam says: The bible as we know it, the 66 books of inspired scripture, was first translated into the Latin Vulgate approximately, around 400 AD.

Then it was finally translated into english by Wycliffe about 1380, and then other versions followed etc.

My question is, if, as you tell us, the gifts of the spirit disappeared in or shortly after the 1st century, how did the "inspiration" come to these men who translated the bible?? If the spirit had stopped reveiling things to men, (the gift of knowledge or wisdom) how did they know which books to choose?
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Thats a good point ~Tam. Also I keep hearing in the news about old writtings that they are finding in caves. BTW, If someone finds a scroll with the writtings of one of the other Apostles and using the process to whether its worthy to cannoize it and it passes then what do we do? Add it or not?

BTW, I thought we were still living in the last days? According to Peter and what he said in Acts.........

Acts 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:
Act 2:18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
Act 2:19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
Act 2:20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:
Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

As far as I know people are still calling on the Lord and getting saved.

I still like the old saying it ain't over till its over!

 

John of Japan
**We'll have to agree to disagree here. I believe a "word of wisdom" or a "word of knowledge" simply to be advice, not words given directly by the Holy Spirit. The Greek for both of these is logos, which can simply mean a message, rather than rhema, which usually means a specific word. **

A retired Greek professor I know through the Internet has shot this rhema/logos argument down. Actually it was popularized by WOF Charismatics. If you look up ‘word’ in a concordance and see where ‘rhema’ and ‘logos’ are used, it easily disproves the idea that ‘logos’ is non-revelatory and ‘rhema’ is—at least as some teach the meaning of the two words.
If the Spirit gives someone a message to say, how is that not revelation. Do you argue that a revelation has to be word-for-word to be revelation? What about dreams and visions then? They are not in the form of words.
And what about people who do pray specific words that the Spirit gives them, specifically about someone’s situation, and it really ministers to them? What do you do with that when that happens?

**Yes, of course the Holy spirit can help someone called before authorities to know what to say, help a preacher know what to preach, help someone to pray for a specific situation, etc. The latter two have happened to me. But my point is, this does not have to be in the exact words of a revelation, but can be simply in impressions and leading. I have never had specific words given by the Holy Spirit. **

And if the Spirit gives someone impressions and leadings, for example telling them what to speak on, isn’t the Spirit communicating outside of scripture? If the Spirit tells you to preach on I John, I John is scripture, but the Spirit telling you to preach on that is not scripture.
Or what if someone has the ‘audacity’ to claim to be called to preach? The Bible does not list their name and say they are called to preach. Yet they claim that the Spirit revealed to them, outside of scripture, that they were supposed to preach.
***You are right about the can of worms. If we get on the issue of the canon, we'll hijack the thread.**
If we keep it focused and on point we might not.


**As for your next point, we're going to have to agree to disagree here. I am a dispensationalist, which means I have no problem at all with what you are saying. I don't believe that anyone is adding to the Bible in this present dispensation simply because we don't need added revelation. The words of the Bible are completely sufficient for our spiritual needs in the church age.**
Dispensationalism is only good so far as it is backed up by scripture. If someone comes out with a chart of the end of time and writes ‘gifts’ in one box, but ‘no gifts’ in another, what is his authority? There has to be scripture to back up which periods of time are without gifts, right? Otherwise, its just human opinion.

Where are the verses to back up the idea that there are no gifts in this dispensation. You do believe there will be prophecy at the end of this age, when the two witnesses prophesy, don’t you? Where is the scriptural authority for saying that the gifts ceased for a couple of thousand years between John and the prophets at the end of the age?
quote:

**Once again, I'm a dispensationalist. I have no problem with there being both a previous dispensation and a future one which had predictive prophecies, while the church age does not.**

But if you do not have scripture to back up the idea that we are in a gap of time without predictive prophecies, you end up with unbiblical doctrine. Where is the scripture that teaches this?

**Let me ask something here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to have a wide open view about this. Do you believe that there can be false prophecies? I'm sure you do. How then do you believe we should limit prophecy? Or should we? How can you tell a false prophet?**

Fortunately the Bible has a lot to say about this. I believe prophets should function in church according to the commandments of the Lord Paul gave in I Corinthians 14, including the commandments about the prophets speaking two or three and the other judging. Jesus also said we would know false prophets by their fruits.

I think a lot of people don’t want to believe in prophecy because of fear. It makes them uneasy thinking they might hear a prophecy and have to determine if it is not from God. Saying there is no true prophecy but the Bible is comfortable. It makes things easy. Easy is not always true.

The early church had to deal with figuring out if prophecies were true or not. Maybe some of the Thessalonians wanted to reject prophecies or roll their eyes when they heard them because of this. But Paul commanded them to despise not prophesyings, to prove all things, and to hold fast to that which is good. Paul did not offer them an easy out of a doctrinal formula that would cause them not to have to determine if something was from God or not.

And he left us commandments in scripture like ‘despise not prophesyings.’ A lot of people reject these commands, unfortunately, based on human reasoning.

**For many of us non-Charismatics, what ruins the whole thing is the great abuse in Charismatic circles of this doctrine. I have read some really bizarre stuff by Charismatics claiming to be prophets. Does this embarrass you?**

I try to think of myself as a follower of Christ rather than as a ‘Charismatic’. Baptists who are in Christ are my brethren as much as Charismatics are. I suppose I would find strange things like this to be embarrassing if I were with an unbeliever and witnessed someone doing strange things.

There are Charismatics and Pentecostals who consider some of these guys to be strange as well. There were false prophets and false teachers going around in the early days of the church. There were also true prophets and true teachers. I can imagine some of the Christians might have been embarrassed before unbelievers that the flakes and false prophets claimed were associated with Christianity in the eyes of unbelievers. I believe the situation today is the same as it was in scripture in a lot of ways. There are true prophets, and there are false prophets, just as we would expect from reading the teachings of Christ and the epistles.

Some weird things people do are just weird, and it does not mean they are not believers. Even with Baptists, isn’t it weird if there are 10 people in a room and the person giving a teaching feels compelled to scream at the top of his lungs and say “And-uh” instead of “And.” If I took an unbeliever with me to church and a guest speaker who talked like that came to church, that might be embarrassing. Some things Charismatics do that look weird to people unfamiliar with them are just weird cultural things, culture in the sense that that is their church culture. So I don’t condemn all weirdness as being the same as false prophesying.

On the issue of modern prophets and prophecies, I study the Bible and believe what it teaches. I don’t worry about whether someone who claims to be a prophet is weird, or if Mormons claim to prophecy. The Bible teaches what it teaches and if people who claim to be Christians prophecy falsely, that does not make the Bible false. In fact, the Bible teaches that there will be both true and false prophets, so the fact that there are false prophets lines up with scripture, too.

 

DHK

**However, R.C.'s, Mormons, and Charismatics all believe that the Bible was not closed with the book of Revelation, and that we still have an open canon. All of them believe the same heresy: that God's revelation is continuing.**

You are defining your terms wrongly. Beliging in on-going revelation is not the same thing as believing in an open canon. Do you believe that the two witnesses will prophesy in the future? If so, does that mean you believe in an open canon?

>>
And it doesn't phase them one iota, that in the OT, when a prophet got just one prophecy wrong, he was executed. It cost him his life. If that was applied today, it would end the Charismatic movement wouldn't it?<<

First, historically, I think you have it wrong. The Israelites were more inclined to keep the false prophets alive and kill the true prophets, no matter what Deuteronomy taught. And I think you would agree that a death penalty for false prophets, adultery, etc. is not appropriate for the church, but rather cutting fellowship off is the way to remove the wicked person from among you.

If false prophets were disciplined, and if unrepentant, removed from churches in the Charismatic movement, it might be a much more powerful movement.

But of course the Charismatic movement is not one movement anyway. It is like being a credobaptist or a premillinealist. Being 'Charismatic' has to do with holding to certain beliefs in a very specific area of doctrine. And the issue here is not about the Charismatic movement. The issue is the fact that the Bible teaches that there are, and will be, prophets in the church.

I don't believe you have answered me on the Two Witnesses.

****quote:
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Mormons believe in adult baptism, if I am not mistaken. Should you stop believing in adult baptism because Mormons believe in it?
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More red herrings. That has more to do with the price of tea in China than it does with God's revelation and prophecy.***

You are the one who opened the can of fish with the guilt by association arguments, a logical fallacy. Mormons believe in on-going revelation. The fact that Mormons believe in something does not make it wrong.


***The Bible speaks of the gift of prophecy--a gift now ceased--that was present during the apostolic age. It was present during that time because the canon of Scripture wasn't complete.***

The problem is that this doctrine that you teach in the quote above is not the teaching of scripture.

*** Now that we have the perfect and completed canon or Scriptures, prophecy, tongues, and revelatory knowledge have all ceased. They are no longer needed.**

The Bible does not teach that.

** All that we need to know is in the pages of what we call the Bible. **

If that is the case, then do you contend that we do not need the Spirit? Paul says that it is by the Spirit that we may know the things that are freely given to us of God. He prays that the Ephesians might have the Spirit of Revelation. Jesus told His disciples that the Spirit would lead them into all truth. The Spirit allows us to understand scripture. And scripture also teaches that the Holy Spirit can speak to the church through gifts like prophecy, etc. This is the teaching of the Bible. The teaching of the Bible is not the enemy of the Bible. The Biblical gift of prophecy is not a threat to the Bible. It may be a threat to some of your extra-Biblical doctrinal beliefs about the Bible.

********I wrote,
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**Mormonism:
They also say that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Should you reject that statement simply because the Mormons claim it. If Mormons confess to believe in something that is Biblical, we should not reject it because the Mormons happen to believe in it.
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DHK responded

**You don't know much about Mormonism do you. That is now what they believe. The believe that Jesus is a son, born of a sexual union between god and another goddess from some planet, and that Lucifer was his brother. He in no way is the Son of God that we believe in. He is a demon-inspired caricature of the Jesus of the Bible.****

Re-read what I said and how I worded itI did not say the Mormons had a correct view of Christ. I said they 'say that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" and asked if you would reject that _statement_--not their concept of Christ.


**We are speaking of revelation, and prophecy related to God's Word--thus my quote about the belief of Mormons in believing in an open ended revelation and the spiritual gifts. Stick to the topic.**

You are the one going off topic with fallacious reasoning. If a true belief happens to be held by Mormons, the belief is no less true.

**The Charismatic movement does reject Biblical doctrine in that they reject the inspiration of the Bible, and the Bible alone as their final authority in all matters of faith and practice. I would consider the rejection of that belief heretical, and the mark of a cult. It is going down the wrong road. It is no different than what Mary Baker Eddy did. ***

You are wrong. Being 'Charismatic' is not about a certain belief on the inspiration or authority of scripture, no more than being amillinealist is. There are plenty of Charismatics who would confess that the Bible is their final authority in matters of faith and practice.

If you hold that one has to believe that the Bible is the only source of revelation from God to be an orthodox Christian, then your definition of orthodoxy contradicts scripture and reason.

 

Link, you throw so much at me I don't have time to answer! I'd love to interact more with you, but I just don't have time, and also don't want to hijack the thread. If you want to open a new thread about some of these issues go ahead, and I'll interact as I can.

I do want to correct some misconceptions in your above statement, though.

(1) I didn't get my view here from WofF people. I taught Greek myself for two years down in Tokyo, and am participating in a NT translation project from the Greek.

(2) Please look at my statement again. I didn't make any hard and fast rules, but said, "can simply mean..." and "ususally means." I know about semantic domain. Both of these words have a wide range of meaning. I just gave my own interpretation.

(3) There is nothing in the text or context to say that "word of wisdom" and "word of knowledge" are prophetic. In fact, prophecy is actually listed as a separate gift. Be careful of eisegesis here--reading into the text what is not there.

 

Hi, prophecynut. I finally got back to your post. This topic has been going nuts, with huge long posts pretty much off topic, IMHO.

I did read the article you mentioned and found it to be similar to my thinking, but not quite.

(1) I would never, ever call anything "inspired" but the Bible itself. As you may know, the word "inspiration" ("inspire," never occurs) occurs only twice in the KJV. Job 32:8 does not help here since it is simply a quote of Elihu. 2 Tim. 3:16 is the only NT quote, and the word there is "theopneustos" (used nowhere else), meaning literally "God-breathed." What is given by God breathing it out? The Greek "graphe," meaning "the writings," Scripture. Therefore, there is absolutely no basis for saying that a modern prophet's words are "inspired." In fact, I believe it is very dangerous spiritually to say so, in the light of verses such as Deut. 4:2 & 12:32, Prov. 30:6, and Rev. 22:18-19.

(2) The writer on the website you mentioned did not mention rebuke or guidance about the Lord's will in his description, and I would say those two are very important in describing prophecy.

God bless!

 

The quote in that link is a good example of "making stuff up" -

The other way to do this would be to actually read the Bible and list the tests it gives.

One test right off the bat would be to avoid slicing and dicing scripture the way the link dices it - (it tries to toss out the Word of God that the NT authors call "scripture" as its first opening argument for example).

In Christ,

Bob

 

I believe as we get closer to the time of Christ's return there may be scriptural prophets who, upon careful study of God's word, recognize the events unfolding and carry on in a fashion similiar to John the Baptist. Telling what God has already told in a more ferverent and detailed manner.

I don't think you will see any more prophets of the nature who can go to a king and say, "God told me to tell you that your nation will fall."

 

You're probably right, there is Scripture that substantiates your view. Mt. 16:11-12 mentions a 3rd Elijah:

"Jesus replied, 'To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him......'." (NIV)

The first Elijah was a prophet of the OT, the second Elijah came in the spirit of Elijah and was fulfilled in John the Baptist, a third one also comes in the spirit of Elijah.

John the Baptist was revealed to Israel just before Christ's 3.5 year ministry, the second one coming in the spirit of Elijah most likely will be revealed to the Church just before the Tribulation.

 

Still it would be God to see what God says about it.

In 1Cor 12 We see Him claim that Prophecy is an ongoing spiritual Gift.

In Numbers 12 - God says "IF THERE IS A prophet among you I WILL make Myself known to him/her by dream or vision".

Numbers 12
6 He said, ""Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the LORD, shall make Myself known to him in a vision. I shall speak with him in a dream.
7 ""Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household;


I suppose you are free to say "oh no you won't" to Him when you read that -- but I prefer not to go that route.

Bob

 

Ya all need to quite equating OT prophets with prophets in the Church, there is a big difference.

 

1Jn:4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Obviously the Bible wouldnt tell us to try the spirits to see if they are from God since many FALSE prophets are out there... if there weren't any such thing as TRUE prophets.

And besides that, the Book of Revelation clearly tells us that one of the identifying marks of God's church in these last days is that it both has the spirit of prophecy and keeps all of God's commandments in contrast with those who bow worship the Beast [Rv. 14:6-12].

Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rv:19:10: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

God has always given special messages to His people through His servants, the prophets.


In addition, obviously, God's prophets will remain until God's true people are all unified, mature Christians, which of course will be at the end of time.

Ephesians 4:
11: And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12: For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Claudia