Orthodox Scholars Reaffirm Theological Validity of Women Deacons

Adonia said:

Same difference to me. Okay, their heads were to be covered while remaining quiet. Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the ladies of biblical times wear veils as part of their dress? Also, when I was a child, even Catholic women were required to wear a head covering in church prior to the Vatican II Council. I am sure this requirement came directly from this passage.

Click to expand...

Yet the Bible and Jesus Himself, makes a distinction [and thus are not the "same difference"], and so does logic.

For instance, logically:


Scripturally [KJB]:

Paul:

Jesus:

If a person [such as a woman], wants to wear a 'doily', or 'veil', etc, etc upon her "hair", which "hair" is on her "head" that is up to her conscience, however, do not make it a matter of proof from scripture, or a regulation to do so, especially for others [read Romans 14 very carefully], for the text cited [1 Corinthans 11 KJB] teaches no such thing, and in fact, as shown, teaches something else. It is when scripture is abused to enforce a man-made custom or tradition that is the real problem [hence the 'catholic' teaching [I too was raised in that system, and know the custom, which came from a misreading, or wresting of the passage. Read it again, closely, for yourself.]]. Eve wore no such "veil", and she had the glory of God, even His light, upon her. See also the pure woman of Revelation 12, which wears the "crown" of victory over sin, the light of the glory of God. So, to be clear, I am not teaching immodesty, but I am demonstrating from scripture what the scripture itself says, so that it may no more be used as self-made justification of a man-made custom.

So, indeed their "head" was to be "covered", absolutely. Yet the covering of the Head, was a woman's "Hair", being her glory, not a piece of cloth, etc.

pastorcwb said:

i'm pretty sure the bible says "if a MAN desires the office of a bishop or a deacon, he desires a great thing........."

Man........not Woooooman

Click to expand...

And obviously not just any "man", for the qualifications are clear. And the "man" had to be [a requirement] married, being "the husband of one wife", and moreso, children to come of it ...


Because as for Elders/Bishops, so too the Deacons, "... Likewise must the deacons be ..." [vs 8], and so:


I will recommend a tremendous resource for this subject here - 'All Gender' Pastors? - What Hath Scripture To Say?

WOe unto us...

1 Timothy 3:1-5 (KJV)
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

WHEN A WOMAN CAN BE THE "HUSBAND" OF ONE WIFE, YOU MAY BE ABLE TO CONVINCE ME. (WITH ALL THIS CRAZY STUFF GOING ON WITH BEING MORE THAN 2 GENDERS......WHO KNOWS ITS 2018 AND MOST OF THE CHURCH IS ASLEEP)

pastorcwb said:

1 Timothy 3:1-5 (KJV)
1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;
5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

WHEN A WOMAN CAN BE THE "HUSBAND" OF ONE WIFE, YOU MAY BE ABLE TO CONVINCE ME. (WITH ALL THIS CRAZY STUFF GOING ON WITH BEING MORE THAN 2 GENDERS......WHO KNOWS ITS 2018 AND MOST OF THE CHURCH IS ASLEEP)

Click to expand...

As it was in the days of Lot ... so shall it be ...

One Baptism said:

Yet the Bible and Jesus Himself, makes a distinction [and thus are not the "same difference"], and so does logic.

For instance, logically:

The Head is "covered" with Hair. The Hair is not "covered" with Head.​

Scripturally [KJB]:

Leviticus 13:40 KJB - And the man whose hair is fallen off his head, he is bald; yet is he clean.
​

Paul:

Acts 27:34 KJB - Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you.​

Jesus:

Luke 21:18 KJB - But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
​

If a person [such as a woman], wants to wear a 'doily', or 'veil', etc, etc upon her "hair", which "hair" is on her "head" that is up to her conscience, however, do not make it a matter of proof from scripture, or a regulation to do so, especially for others [read Romans 14 very carefully], for the text cited [1 Corinthans 11 KJB] teaches no such thing, and in fact, as shown, teaches something else. It is when scripture is abused to enforce a man-made custom or tradition that is the real problem [hence the 'catholic' teaching [I too was raised in that system, and know the custom, which came from a misreading, or wresting of the passage. Read it again, closely, for yourself.]]. Eve wore no such "veil", and she had the glory of God, even His light, upon her. See also the pure woman of Revelation 12, which wears the "crown" of victory over sin, the light of the glory of God. So, to be clear, I am not teaching immodesty, but I am demonstrating from scripture what the scripture itself says, so that it may no more be used as self-made justification of a man-made custom.

So, indeed their "head" was to be "covered", absolutely. Yet the covering of the Head, was a woman's "Hair", being her glory, not a piece of cloth, etc.

Click to expand...

So, do the women at SDA worship wear head coverings and keep quiet?

Adonia said:

So, do the women at SDA worship wear head coverings ...

Click to expand...

It will depend upon the ethnic, regional or local gathering, and upon the consciences of the various women in those and other congregations. For instance, some old world or Eastern countries [Europe/Russia, etc], or even what is called 3rd world countries [Africa, etc] there is more 'scarf', 'doily' or 'veil'/s worn by women. Not so much from a biblical rule to do so, because there is none [though some attempt to make such a rule], but more of an ethnic or local custom. Now some may have the wrong impression of the aforesaid scripture already mention in 1 Corinthians 11, but it would still be a mis-reading/understanding of the texts if so, and the truth of the matter should be shared with them in kindness, and in no way attempting to take away from their conscience or right to wear such if they continue to choose to. It is not a matter for division [again Romans 14 KJB].

You will find in the "present truth" movements more scriptural [KJB] dress, in other words true modesty, ie length of dress down to the mid ankle, several inches from the ground, as Jesus [our example in all things, men and women], and also limbs evenly covered, no nakedness.

In the so-called "conservative" fellowships, many have more of a modest dress [less to no flesh showing, ie limbs, waist, back, etc], which may or may not include such a thing as a 'scarf', 'doily' or 'veil', upon individual women, though such congregations on the whole are generally in flux as to the highest standards given in scripture for dress, because of a lack of personal study on the part of indivudal persons.

In the so-called 'liberal" congregations, where many are deceived [not all are wicked, some willingly so], most dress immodestly [ie. flesh showing] according to scriptural [KJB] standards. Those who are ignorant may still be worked with to show them a more perfect way however. As for the others who are willingly ignorant, they are not true Seventh-day Adventists, but are weeds/tares, goats, foolish.

Yet neither "conservative", nor "liberal" is scriptural [KJB], in the sense of being the true standard of righteousness. "Converted" is the standard. Christ Jesus the foundation of all example. Pharisees were generally conservative [resurrection, etc], while Sadducees were generaly liberal [no resurrection, etc], yet both were in error. This is why Jesus and the apostles spoke of being "converted" [Matthew 18:3; Mark 4:12; John 12:40; Acts 3:19, 28:27 KJB]

If you would like a more indepth study on dress in scripture, in both the example of Jesus, Angels, and Sanctuary [Psalms 77:13 KJB] I would be glad to share with you and all.

Consider - youtube dress refrom jeremiah davis - Google Search

Adonia said:

So, do the women at SDA ... keep quiet?

Click to expand...

Depends on what you would mean by "keep quiet", and which scriptural references you are referring to.

Are you referring to the passages of 1 Corinthians 14; 1 Timothy 5; Titus 2 ?

For instance, those texts do not preclude a woman from teaching/speaking in the church, or from addressing any congregation [within the bounds prescribed that is]. We can look at them more specifically in the light of the entire scripture [KJB] and their own local context.

For instance, sister Ellen G. White is a perfect example, in her role as messenger of the LORD, a mother in Israel, she spoke/taught, etc on many instances, and this is within the bounds of those and any OT and other NT texts, to be discussed in further detail as necessary.

There is a difference however, between that, and ordination to offices of Bishop/Elder and even Deacon, etc.

Even with that briefly stated, there are those within the congregations that do what they will [tare/goat/foolish], inspite of all evidence [and if unrepentant, will perish], and some are just ignorant, since there is a range of new believers and mature Christians, unconverted and converted.

One Baptism said:

It will depend upon the ethnic, regional or local gathering, and upon the consciences of the various women in those and other congregations. For instance, some old world or Eastern countries [Europe/Russia, etc], or even what is called 3rd world countries [Africa, etc] there is more 'scarf', 'doily' or 'veil'/s worn by women. Not so much from a biblical rule to do so, because there is none [though some attempt to make such a rule], but more of an ethnic or local custom. Now some may have the wrong impression of the aforesaid scripture already mention in 1 Corinthians 11, but it would still be a mis-reading/understanding of the texts if so, and the truth of the matter should be shared with them in kindness, and in no way attempting to take away from their conscience or right to wear such if they continue to choose to. It is not a matter for division [again Romans 14 KJB].

You will find in the "present truth" movements more scriptural [KJB] dress, in other words true modesty, ie length of dress down to the mid ankle, several inches from the ground, as Jesus [our example in all things, men and women], and also limbs evenly covered, no nakedness.

In the so-called "conservative" fellowships, many have more of a modest dress [less to no flesh showing, ie limbs, waist, back, etc], which may or may not include such a thing as a 'scarf', 'doily' or 'veil', upon individual women, though such congregations on the whole are generally in flux as to the highest standards given in scripture for dress, because of a lack of personal study on the part of indivudal persons.

In the so-called 'liberal" congregations, where many are deceived [not all are wicked, some willingly so], most dress immodestly [ie. flesh showing] according to scriptural [KJB] standards. Those who are ignorant may still be worked with to show them a more perfect way however. As for the others who are willingly ignorant, they are not true Seventh-day Adventists, but are weeds/tares, goats, foolish.

Yet neither "conservative", nor "liberal" is scriptural [KJB], in the sense of being the true standard of righteousness. "Converted" is the standard. Christ Jesus the foundation of all example. Pharisees were generally conservative [resurrection, etc], while Sadducees were generaly liberal [no resurrection, etc], yet both were in error. This is why Jesus and the apostles spoke of being "converted" [Matthew 18:3; Mark 4:12; John 12:40; Acts 3:19, 28:27 KJB]

If you would like a more indepth study on dress in scripture, in both the example of Jesus, Angels, and Sanctuary [Psalms 77:13 KJB] I would be glad to share with you and all.

Consider - youtube dress refrom jeremiah davis - Google Search

Depends on what you would mean by "keep quiet", and which scriptural references you are referring to.

Are you referring to the passages of 1 Corinthians 14; 1 Timothy 5; Titus 2 ?

For instance, those texts do not preclude a woman from teaching/speaking in the church, or from addressing any congregation [within the bounds prescribed that is]. We can look at them more specifically in the light of the entire scripture [KJB] and their own local context.

For instance, sister Ellen G. White is a perfect example, in her role as messenger of the LORD, a mother in Israel, she spoke/taught, etc on many instances, and this is within the bounds of those and any OT and other NT texts, to be discussed in further detail as necessary.

There is a difference however, between that, and ordination to offices of Bishop/Elder and even Deacon, etc.

Even with that briefly stated, there are those within the congregations that do what they will [tare/goat/foolish], inspite of all evidence [and if unrepentant, will perish], and some are just ignorant, since there is a range of new believers and mature Christians, unconverted and converted.

Click to expand...

Oh that's right, none of this came about before sister White (or that fellow from upstate New York). Seems to me God would not have waited that long before these two came on the scene to get the truth out. Why do you follow their teachings, why not Charles Taze Russell?

Adonia said:

Oh that's right, none of this came about before sister White (or that fellow from upstate New York). Seems to me God would not have waited that long before these two came on the scene to get the truth out. Why do you follow their teachings, why not Charles Taze Russell?

Click to expand...

That is not what was said, writtten or implied [in regards sister White, nor [I assume you mean] brother William Miller [originally Baptist]]. Please re-read what was written.

Also, can you please clarify "this" when "this came about". Are you referring to cloth on hair, or something else, such as woman speaking/teaching, etc within the church [in its proper sphere]?

Truth has always been [it is eternal], even from the beginning, and the true Seventh-day Adventists teach that doctrine of Christ Jesus, and every such doctrine is found in the Sanctuary of God [Psalms 77:13 KJB].

I speak/practice according to "the law and the testimony", as it is written, Isaiah 8:20 KJB. I follow no man, other than Christ Jesus, "the man".

I have demonstrated in every case, always from scripture [KJB], which cannot be broken [John 10:35 KJB], first and foremost.

Truth is also progressive, meaning, it starts with a foundation, and builds upon it throughout the scriptural history. In otherwords, God promosed the "seed" in Genesis 3:15 KJB. We get more details in Leviticus 23 in regards the feastal calendar about Jesus, and yet we do not get an exact year for Jesus in His baptism, Death, etc until Daniel 8-9. That is thousands of years. The truth was from the beginning even until then, and after, always building on the previous foundation.

Also remember the period called the "dark ages" when the "light" burned dimly for hundreds of years. God's word was destroyed, burned, and His people hunted, persecuted and murdered.

Consider this, it may help you to see where I, thus Seventh-day Adventists, am/are coming from:


As for Charles Taze Russell of the 'bible students' movement [later Jehovah's Witnesses, and later WTS, Watch Tower and Tract Society], there are, from his very beginning grievous errors theologically, and even practically. He took truth, and wrested it, and such followers of his teachings/way, etc continued to err ever since, adding to that false foundation. Do they [as others, baptists, methodist, anglicans, etc] have some truth in various scattered areas? Of course, otherwise it would not be deceiving in the least.

The main argument for woman deacons comes from Romans 16:1.
The word translated 'servant' there is in fact diakonos.
The argument against is in 1 Timothy 3:12.

Martin Marprelate said:

The main argument for woman deacons comes from Romans 16:1.
The word translated 'servant' there is in fact diakonos.
The argument against is in 1 Timothy 3:12.

Click to expand...

Truly, since the KJB, renders this correctly "servant" [or who simply "ministers" to others] for Phebe, not [ordained office of] "Deacon", as others do.

The very word "diakonos", is used in many instances to simply mean "servant" [and not always tied to an ordained office within the Church, which only applied to males, specifically husbands [married], normally with children, and with specific qualifications as outlined in 1 Timothy 3 KJB, etc]:


Total KJB Occurrences: 30

They who translate such as text as Romans 16:1 as "deacon" [which is a transliteration anyway], to attempt to prove ordained offices as such for women, ignore all the other places where the word is given, even for Jesus, Paul, Peter, etc. Were they all "deacons" in that same sense, as they would claim for Phebe?

Also they ignore the text where the term is used in Romans 13:4 KJB, in regards public/civil law enforcing "servants", such as the police, etc. Also they ignore the simple "servants" in John 2:5,9 KJB. Are they "deacons" in such a sense? Of course not.

Jesus taught all to "minister" to one another, in order to be a disciple of His, to be a "servant" as like Jesus was a "servant", for He came not to be ministered unto but to minister to, and not to be served, but to serve [indeed as an perfect example of such].

Finally, they would need such evidence in the mouth of two or three witnesses [Deuteronomy 19:15; John 8:17; 2 Corinthians 13:1 KJB, etc] for such an 'ordained office' for a woman, and there is none else in all of scripture. Not even for Phebe herself.

Those who seek an office/position within the Church, that is not prescribed by God, and without authority, seek after what Lucifer sought after, from the beginning ... to be in the place/office of ... even leaving his first estate [arch office] to take a position that was never his, nor ever could be for him ...

One Baptism said:

Also, can you please clarify "this" when "this came about". Are you referring to cloth on hair, or something else, such as woman speaking/teaching, etc within the church [in its proper sphere]?

Click to expand...

"This came about " i.e. Ellen White's spiel about Christians worshipping on Saturday. That's your whole kit and caboodle - plus not eating pork. Also, Mr. Millers prophesies concerning the 2nd coming in the 1840's did not quite pan out either. All quite at odds with orthodox Christian thought and teachings.

I will admit though, your way with words and quoting the Scriptures as you do reminds me of my last conversation with a follower of Charles Taze Russell - you both come off very well.

One Baptism said:

In post #11 of this very thread, I responded to such a question:

"I am a true [by the grace of God, a wheat, not tare, a sheep, not goat, a wise, not foolish] Seventh-day Adventist, that prophetically foretold remnant of her "seed", which keep the Commandments of God, and have the Testimony and Faith of Jesus Christ, whom the Dragon is wroth with and even now makes continual war with, and I am unashamed [Romans 1:16, 9:33, 10:11; 2 Timothy 1:8, 2:15, etc KJB] of it. [ask anyone, in Christ, here about my boldness in Christ Jesus] ..." - Orthodox Scholars Reaffirm Theological Validity of Women Deacons​

And so, therefore, to answer your question, without obfuscation, "I am Seventh-day Adventist.", which is more fiting than simply "Sda", which attempts to shorten the powerful name given unto us by God, for everytime it is said, written, it is a living sermon, doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteouness, rebuke in love, of itself, a name to tremble at because of what it encompasses within its character, even Alpha to Omega, Beginning unto Ending, First to Last, and Author to Finisher ... Creation to Redemption, perfection unto perfection, glory to glory ... Seventh-day unto Advent ....

Click to expand...

So yoyu do follow then the teachings and doctrines of not the scriptures, but of Ellen White than?

Yeshua1 said:

So yoyu do follow then the teachings and doctrines of not the scriptures, but of Ellen White than?

Click to expand...

I follow the Word of God [KJB], which says, in Isaiah 8:20:


Thus it is priortized, not merely one, but both in the proper sphere and order:


Most Christians do not understand this text, in not only the "testimony" aspect, but even many these days in regards the first part, and because of that, in neglecting of the first, they do not see, or even want to see the second [2 Kings 17:13; Nehemiah 9:26; Proverbs 29:18; Lamentations 2:9 KJB]. All "testimony" is to be tested by God's character/standard of righteousness, thus:


Sister White demonstrated throughout her whole life the gift of prophecy, and it is proven true, over and over again, not only in doctrine, but in character, and in physical manifestations, and not only this, but both prophecy and typology demanded at the time specified, according to Revelation, such be present for the last days.

The Testimonies for the Church, are from Jesus Christ, to us through the Holy Spirit, through sister White. These testimonies are in perfect agreement with the Bible [KJB], as I have tested them myself on numerous occasions, even some of the more deep [theologically speaking] materials.

I can [by the grace of God, and wisdom given by God] demonstrate every single doctrine found therein, from the scriptures [KJB]. I will recommend a few things:

Ellen G. White

People who simply turn away without testing, will do as the pharisees and Herod did to John the Baptist, not receive the teaching, and thus rejecting the messenger, will reject the law of God [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB], and so kill [murder], and thus Jesus will have no more to say, for if sinners [1 John 3:4 KJB] cast away the Law and the prophets/testimony, they have in effect already cast Jesus away, for He is the living Law, and His words, the testimony/prophecy, and so He will remain silent, for the person no longer desires to hear Him.

Through the whole of scripture [KJB], there is always these two.

The Law [or the Commandments of God, and all that go with them] and the Testimony [which is the Spirit of the Prophets/prophecy] are two such witnesses [which make up the whole of Scripture], even as we see from the Scripture:


also known as "the law and the prophets" [Matthew 5:17, 7:12, 11:13, 22:40; Luke 16:16, 24:44; John 1:45; Acts 13:15, 24:14, 28:23; Romans 3:21, etc; and see "the law [is] no [more]; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD." Lamentations 2:9;p, see also Proverbs 29:18; Ezekiel 7:26; Zephaniah 3:4; Zechariah 7:12, etc.]

In fact, God the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit also work in this way, they being The 3 Eternal Witnesses:


Jesus declares it so, and even the Jews which heard Him understood this was the way it had to be:

One Baptism said:

I follow the Word of God [KJB], which says, in Isaiah 8:20:

Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.​

Thus it is priortized, not merely one, but both in the proper sphere and order:

[1] To the Law [see also Exodus 20:1-17 KJB]

and​

[2] to the testimony [see also Revelation 19:10 KJB]​

Most Christians do not understand this text, in not only the "testimony" aspect, but even many these days in regards the first part, and because of that, in neglecting of the first, they do not see, or even want to see the second [2 Kings 17:13; Nehemiah 9:26; Proverbs 29:18; Lamentations 2:9 KJB]. All "testimony" is to be tested by God's character/standard of righteousness, thus:

1 Thessalonians 5:19 KJB - Quench not the Spirit.
1 Thessalonians 5:20 KJB - Despise not prophesyings.
1 Thessalonians 5:21 KJB - Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.​

Sister White demonstrated throughout her whole life the gift of prophecy, and it is proven true, over and over again, not only in doctrine, but in character, and in physical manifestations, and not only this, but both prophecy and typology demanded at the time specified, according to Revelation, such be present for the last days.

The Testimonies for the Church, are from Jesus Christ, to us through the Holy Spirit, through sister White. These testimonies are in perfect agreement with the Bible [KJB], as I have tested them myself on numerous occasions, even some of the more deep [theologically speaking] materials.

I can [by the grace of God, and wisdom given by God] demonstrate every single doctrine found therein, from the scriptures [KJB]. I will recommend a few things:

Ellen G. White

People who simply turn away without testing, will do as the pharisees and Herod did to John the Baptist, not receive the teaching, and thus rejecting the messenger, will reject the law of God [Exodus 20:1-17 KJB], and so kill [murder], and thus Jesus will have no more to say, for if sinners [1 John 3:4 KJB] cast away the Law and the prophets/testimony, they have in effect already cast Jesus away, for He is the living Law, and His words, the testimony/prophecy, and so He will remain silent, for the person no longer desires to hear Him.

Through the whole of scripture [KJB], there is always these two.

The Law [or the Commandments of God, and all that go with them] and the Testimony [which is the Spirit of the Prophets/prophecy] are two such witnesses [which make up the whole of Scripture], even as we see from the Scripture:

Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you: 1 Corinthians 1:6

So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1 Corinthians 1:7

Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:8

Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 1 Corinthians 12:1

Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1 Corinthians 12:4

To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 1 Corinthians 12:9

To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 1 Corinthians 12:10

And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 1 Corinthians 12:28

This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established. 2 Corinthians 13:1

He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Hebrews 10:28

Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Revelation 1:2

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand. Revelation 1:3

John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne; Revelation 1:4

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Revelation 1:5

And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Revelation 19:10

["For he established a testimony in Jacob, and appointed a law in Israel, which he commanded our fathers, that they should make them known to their children:" Psalms 78:5;

"To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them." Isaiah 8:20;

"Yet the LORD testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, [and by] all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments [and] my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets." 2 Kings 17:13;

"Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against thee, and cast thy law behind their backs, and slew thy prophets which testified against them to turn them to thee, and they wrought great provocations." Nehemiah 9:26;​

also known as "the law and the prophets" [Matthew 5:17, 7:12, 11:13, 22:40; Luke 16:16, 24:44; John 1:45; Acts 13:15, 24:14, 28:23; Romans 3:21, etc; and see "the law [is] no [more]; her prophets also find no vision from the LORD." Lamentations 2:9;p, see also Proverbs 29:18; Ezekiel 7:26; Zephaniah 3:4; Zechariah 7:12, etc.]

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 1:9

And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Revelation 6:9

And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. Revelation 11:3

These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth. Revelation 11:4

And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed. Revelation 11:5

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:17

At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death. Deuteronomy 13:6

One witness shall not rise up against a man for any iniquity, or for any sin, in any sin that he sinneth: at the mouth of two witnesses, or at the mouth of three witnesses, shall the matter be established. Deuteronomy 19:15

But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Matthew 18:16

Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Romans 12:6

Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. 1 Timothy 5:19
​

In fact, God the Father, and the Son and the Holy Spirit also work in this way, they being The 3 Eternal Witnesses:

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true. John 8:17​

Jesus declares it so, and even the Jews which heard Him understood this was the way it had to be:

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. John 5:31

The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true. John 8:13

Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, [yet] my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go. John 8:14

I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. John 8:18​

Click to expand...

Ellen White had erroneous doctrines and practices, so failed the test of being a true prophet of the Lord, and additional revelation ceased when John died, correct?

Adonia said:

"This came about " i.e. Ellen White's spiel about Christians worshipping on Saturday. That's your whole kit and caboodle - plus not eating pork. Also, Mr. Millers prophesies concerning the 2nd coming in the 1840's did not quite pan out either. All quite at odds with orthodox Christian thought and teachings.

I will admit though, your way with words and quoting the Scriptures as you do reminds me of my last conversation with a follower of Charles Taze Russell - you both come off very well.

Click to expand...

Followers of God, have always worshipped upon the 7th day, the Sabbath of the LORD thy God, from God, to Adam, to Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to David, to Jesus, to Apostles and Disciples, to the persecuted church in the wilderness, to today:

1st Century

Christians, including in the days of sister White, even when she was but a youth, worshipped upon the 7th Day, the Sabbath of the LORD thy God.

As a true Seventh-day Adventists, I am not allowed to eat anything unclean [my body being a true Temple of the LORD God], that so includes a lot more than flesh of pig [pork], but includes everything stated in Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14, and also fat, blood, things strangled, and such flesh when it was from a clean [sanctified] animal, had to be drained of all blood, "sodden" [soaked in a brine, yes it is in scripture [KJB]], and burnt by fire and dried [so it was more like jerky when done], and not as is done today, and it could not be from a diseased, maimed, etc 'clean' animal. However, for every piece of flesh eaten, God said your life would be shortened, in Genesis 9. Animals are becoming more and more diseased because of the increase of sin, and even their byproducts, milk, eggs, cheese [never was to be food, it actually causes osteoporois, and creates an imbalance in the system, and the sytem has to leach calcium to eliminate it, and it takes the longest to digest, even over flesh] etc are also diseased. Animal food, was only a temporary provision, and was always to go back to the Edenic diet, fruits, nuts, grains [and for us today also the vegetables], and no flesh whatsoever. Also no alcohol, no narcotics, stimulants [caffeine], excitotoxins [theobromine], etc. I can show you in scripture [KJB], in the Sanctuary [Psalms 77:13 KJB], and in prophecy, and in scientific data also where needed. God's plan of salvation redemption is to save us from things which we briong upon ourselves because of sin, and ignorance. It also involves cleanliness, dress, whole body/mind heatlh, reading, etc.

I would really like private time with you, that you might truly see it is way more than simply a diet, for it deals with salvation and redemption itself. Daniel, among many others, and especially Jesus, knew this also.

The diet reformation is to be progressive, onward and upward, returning back to the Edenic, step by step by faith in obedience to God's word.

As for brother Miller, and the prophecies of Daniel, you have to give him some leeway, since most of Christianity had cast those things aside, and yet there were [and still are] things to be fulfilled in them, even as Jesus told us [Matthew 24 and Mark 13]. Was he wrong about the event of 1843/44, yes, because Wm. Miller misunderstood a single phrase "then shall the sanctuary be cleansed" of Daniel 8:14 KJB. Was he originally incorrect about the date also? Yes, but that was because of a misunderstanding of Biblical chronology/time, but it became corrected through Samuel Sheffield Snow, etc. If you study these things, Biblical chronology is a bit of work and study, and there is also the matter of the many calendars of humanity to work through in combination. Give him a little slack, he was off not by much originally, and he was not the only one in the 1840's studying these things and coming to the same basic conclusion. People the whole world over were coming to similar conclusions, on their own [guided by the Holy Spirit].

Yet, even this "great disappointment" was foretold in scripture [Revelation 10], even as the great disappointment of the Apostles in Jesus death. They misunderstood the event, also. It was to be a test for those who claimed to follow Jesus. Only the true remained behind, to pray and ask God for guidance and light. Afterwards, there was rejoicing. Type an anti-type.

Who/what according to you, defines "orthodox" Christianity?

I read the OT and the NT, and see the 7th Day the Sabbath, life of Holiness, cleanliness, etc. Thus from my P.O.V. Seventh-day Adventists are the Orthodoxy [correct theology], and Orthopraxy [correct practice/living]. I am not being prideful, nor boastful, nor attempting to be hurtful, just stating a position based upon evidence.

I have on several occasions spoken with the JW, and even had them over to my house. The ones online stuck around a little longer, but the ones invited, stayed once, maybe twice for a short time, and fled, never to return, they being unable to address the texts [KJB], or even their own errors in their prophecies or in their own publications [which are contradictory].

I presently still have the JW prophetic timeline on my personal WhiteBoard [4ft x 6ft] in my room, with their own documentation pages and citations listed, all below the true Bible prophetic timeline as shared by the Seventh-day Adventist, which is above, all cited with scripture, and historical documentation.

It is not like a I hate any person, but I do confront their doctrines, in love, not simply to win an argument [that's easy], but to win them to truth, that they may be set free to think and accept that Everlasting Gospel, and so be saved, for the mind may receive it, but if the heart is not in it, nothing is won, and all is lost [for that moment].

Yeshua1 said:

Ellen White had erroneous doctrines and practices...

Click to expand...

Brother, that is simply an assertion, unfounded, since no direct and proved evidence appeared to back it. I can therefore, simply ignore the unfounded assertion. However, if you want to look at anything specific, we can look, one at a time, in another thread. I do not want to derail this one.

Yeshua1 said:

Ellen White had erroneous doctrines and practices, so failed the test of being a true prophet of the Lord...

Click to expand...

The second point follows, logically, the first, but since the first is unfounded, and simply assserted without proof, or evidence that has withstood the strictest tests, I can ignore this conclusion.

My own testing, in actually reading the material [not merely cherry-picking from some biased website, etc, most of which are demonstrably in error, as has been before on this forum, I even pointed out errors of others in their citing of pages, and etc, did tjhey correct their errors? No, they continue to disseminate them as they are]., demosntrated that she is true, and is in perfect harmony with scripture.

Yeshua1 said:

... additional revelation ceased when John died, correct?

Click to expand...

The church would have the gifts, including prophets/prophecy, unto the end, 1 Corinthians 14; Ephesians 4, etc:

Even the Great Whore has the blood of prophets in her, and she exists after Christ Jesus ascended:
Many persons misunderstand Hebrews 1, in regards to Jesus, and the Father now speaking unto us by the Son [the Highest Messenger], thus He is indeed above all previous prophets, for Jesus is "the prophet", as Moses foretold, and as Acts verifies. Jesus still speaks, that is, by His testimony [Revelation 19:10 KJB, etc], since He is in Heaven, and thus comes through the messenger/s of His choice, by the Holy Spirit [the eternal person of the another Comforter, sent to lead us into all truth, not speaking His own words, but that which He hears]. Thus, the warning against false prophets, not all who claim to be prophets. Thus the admonition to despise not prophesyings, and to prove, to test and to compare to scripture.

Many also misunderstand Matthew 11:13 and Luke 16:16, but when studied out, are in perfect atonement with the aforesaid.

Sister White, is a messenger which magnifies the word/law, even as Moses, Daniel, John, or any other prophet/ess did. It is the same inspiration of God that worked in all. First God spake/wrote the Law, and then afterwards gave testimony to Moses. Daniel had not even written his testimony/prophecies yet. The NT had not even been written by the time of Jesus.

A for instance, can you show me in the OT, where these two names ["Jannes and Jambres"] are found?:

One Baptism said:

I would really like private time with you, that you might truly see it is way more than simply a diet, for it deals with salvation and redemption itself.

Click to expand...

Diet has no bearing on salvation. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the great sacrifice for all mankind, gives us salvation.

One Baptism said:

Who/what according to you, defines "orthodox" Christianity?

Click to expand...

Orthodox Christianity is a belief in the seven sacraments as given to us by Our Lord Jesus Christ. It is listening to the Church which He Himself created to be the teaching institution for the faithful on this earth until the end of time, and it is worshipping on the Lord's Day which is Sunday. All of Christendom believed this, from St. Paul on down to this very day. It is only sects like yours who reject this truth.

Adonia said:

Diet has no bearing on salvation. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the great sacrifice for all mankind, gives us salvation.

Click to expand...

Why did we [man-kind] need salvation/redemption? Did someone eat that which they were not supposed to? The belly became god? Does this need to also be redeemed/saved? God is restoring, through the blood and sacrifice of Jesus, and by the application of it by the Holy Spirit. Eternal life, does not come with disobedience. I know things in scripture which you do not know presently. Terrible things are coming because of man's diet, death to millions, even as it did in the OT in the days of Moses. Do not believe me? Test me ... you are commanded to.

Diet has a lot more to do with this than you presently know. Diet affects your mind/body [thus whole being, soul], even physiologically, there is a connection between the 'gut' and the 'brain'. How can you accept the Gospel with a polluted mind, or understand spiritual matters without a clear and restored mind and body.

The Holy Spirit does not speak so much to your elbow, your knee, your foot, but does moreso speak to your mind. The more clear this is, the better to receive His instruction, this is the way, walk ye in it ...

Bodies in pain, affect the mind, for the street [physiologially speaking] is two ways, not one way. Consider this text:


Did you know that Jesus healed more bodies/minds so that people would be able to accept the Gospel?

Look up the koine Greek word - d'sozo., see G4982, in all its uses, and the contexts are immediately connected with. Then read a book by the same name by Dave Fiedler.

Adonia said:

... Orthodox Christianity is a belief in the seven sacraments as given to us by Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

That is a self-serving definition. Not being harsh. That may be Orthodox Catholicism, but not orthodox Christianity. The two are not synonymous, and even Catholics prove this themselves. I ask them [as it used to be asked of me], Are you Christian? They say, I am Catholic [As I also used to do].

Adonia said:

... It is listening to the Church which He Himself created to be the teaching institution for the faithful on this earth until the end of time, and it is worshipping on the Lord's Day which is Sunday. All of Christendom believed this, from St. Paul on down to this very day. It is only sects like yours who reject this truth.

Click to expand...

The Lord's day in scripture [Revelation 1:10 KJB] is not a reference to the first day of the week, and even Rome acknowledges this, and I can quote it to you if you would like, from their source.

It [Revelation 1:10 KJB] is a reference to the 7th day of the week, the Sabbath of the LORD, since Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath day, then, and now. It is His Holy Day. The only day made Holy in all of scripture [KJB], by His resting in it and sanctiying it.

All of Christendom, including Paul, did not teach that the Lord's day was 'sunday' [first day of the week]. The first day of the week in scripture, has no name, it is simply the first day pointing to the culmination of the week, the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD, consider every single Koine Greek usage in the NT itself.

We must listen to Jesus. The Father said, Hear ye Him [Jesus] ...

The church has its proper sphere, structure nad purpose, do not get me wrong, but in Roman Catholicism the order is reversed. The Magisterium, etc decide what scripture is, what tradition is, and which is greater in each. It has no check or balance, since it does not make the word of God foremost, but itself.

I used to believe like you [born and raised into it], until I read deeper into the scripture, and into Rome's own sources.

One Baptism said:

Why did we [man-kind] need salvation/redemption? Did someone eat that which they were not supposed to? The belly became god? Does this need to also be redeemed/saved? God is restoring, through the blood and sacrifice of Jesus, and by the application of it by the Holy Spirit. Eternal life, does not come with disobedience. I know things in scripture which you do not know presently. Terrible things are coming because of man's diet, death to millions, even as it did in the OT in the days of Moses. Do not believe me? Test me ... you are commanded to.

Click to expand...

I have tested you and have found your ideas wanting as the great preponderance of Christian thought and teachings for the last 2000 plus years is different from what you now profess.

It is not what goes into the mouth, it is what comes out that displeases the Lord is what I have heard. I hear you folks don't drink alcohol either, but the Lord Jesus surely did as he went about his days travelling around preaching. Wine, the "fruit of the vine" was the standard drink for all.

In Col 2:16-17 it is written: "Therefore let no one pass judgement on you in questions of food or drink or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are only a shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ".

One Baptism said:

All of Christendom, including Paul, did not teach that the Lord's day was 'sunday' [first day of the week]. The first day of the week in scripture, has no name, it is simply the first day pointing to the culmination of the week, the 7th day the Sabbath of the LORD, consider every single Koine Greek usage in the NT itself.

Click to expand...

"On the first day of the week, when we were gathered together to break bread, Paul talked with them..." [Acts 20:7] What was breaking of the bread? Nothing less than the Mass, the worship by Christians, and it was taking place on the first day of the week.


In 1 Cor 16 it also says: "Now about the collection for the Lord’s people: Do what I told the Galatian churches to do. 2On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with your income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made. 3Then, when I arrive, I will give letters of introduction to the men you approve and send them with your gift to Jerusalem. 4If it seems advisable for me to go also, they will accompany me".

So if Christians were worshipping on Saturday, why would St. Paul be saying to take up the collection on Sunday? This makes no sense and it proves my point of Sunday worship, not your harking back to some OT principle..

The early Christian writers also spoke of Sunday worship, to wit: "Assemble on the Lord's Day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one". [The Didache 14:1]

Also: "And we too rejoice in celebrating the eighth day; because that was when Jesus rose from the dead..." [Epistle of Barnabas 15] (St. Barnabas in using the phrase "the eighth day" was referring to Sunday).

Sometime before 110 A.D., St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote to the Magnesians: "We have seen how former adherents of the ancient customs have since attained to a new hope; so that they have given up keeping the Sabbath, and now order their lives by the Lord's Day instead - the Day when life first dawned for us, thanks to Him (Jesus) and His death. [Epistle to the Magnesians 9]

So we know that as baptism replaced circumcision (Col 2:11-12) for Christians, so does Sunday replace Saturday. Observance of the Lord's Day is not out of the ordinary, but is exactly what was done by all Christians from the very beginning. Worshipping on Sunday is not some "mark of the beast" but the mark of the Christian.

One Baptism said:

Brother, that is simply an assertion, unfounded, since no direct and proved evidence appeared to back it. I can therefore, simply ignore the unfounded assertion. However, if you want to look at anything specific, we can look, one at a time, in another thread. I do not want to derail this one.

The second point follows, logically, the first, but since the first is unfounded, and simply assserted without proof, or evidence that has withstood the strictest tests, I can ignore this conclusion.

My own testing, in actually reading the material [not merely cherry-picking from some biased website, etc, most of which are demonstrably in error, as has been before on this forum, I even pointed out errors of others in their citing of pages, and etc, did tjhey correct their errors? No, they continue to disseminate them as they are]., demosntrated that she is true, and is in perfect harmony with scripture.

The church would have the gifts, including prophets/prophecy, unto the end, 1 Corinthians 14; Ephesians 4, etc:

Revelation 10:11 KJB - And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.

Revelation 14:6 KJB - And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people

Revelation 14:7 KJB - Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters

Revelation 14:8 KJB - And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication

Revelation 14:9 KJB - And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand

Revelation 14:10 KJB - The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb

Revelation 14:11 KJB - And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name

Revelation 14:12 KJB - Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
​

Even the Great Whore has the blood of prophets in her, and she exists after Christ Jesus ascended:

Revelation 18:24 KJB - And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
​

Many persons misunderstand Hebrews 1, in regards to Jesus, and the Father now speaking unto us by the Son [the Highest Messenger], thus He is indeed above all previous prophets, for Jesus is "the prophet", as Moses foretold, and as Acts verifies. Jesus still speaks, that is, by His testimony [Revelation 19:10 KJB, etc], since He is in Heaven, and thus comes through the messenger/s of His choice, by the Holy Spirit [the eternal person of the another Comforter, sent to lead us into all truth, not speaking His own words, but that which He hears]. Thus, the warning against false prophets, not all who claim to be prophets. Thus the admonition to despise not prophesyings, and to prove, to test and to compare to scripture.

Many also misunderstand Matthew 11:13 and Luke 16:16, but when studied out, are in perfect atonement with the aforesaid.

Sister White, is a messenger which magnifies the word/law, even as Moses, Daniel, John, or any other prophet/ess did. It is the same inspiration of God that worked in all. First God spake/wrote the Law, and then afterwards gave testimony to Moses. Daniel had not even written his testimony/prophecies yet. The NT had not even been written by the time of Jesus.

A for instance, can you show me in the OT, where these two names ["Jannes and Jambres"] are found?:

2 Timothy 3:8 KJB - Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.​

Click to expand...

The gift of prophesy in Acts may or may not have continued, as that is a debatable issue, but the Office of the Prophet/Apostle has ceased in the Church, no debating that!
So Ellen White auto dis qualifyed!