#2 Greek Tenses and OSAS

</font>[/QUOTE]You're evading the point. You state that "The seal of the Holy Spirit is the pledge given of eternal life to those that "persevere", whereas that is not what Ephesians 1:13, 14 says. It says...

Notice that it does not say that we weresealed with the Holy Spirit after persevering... it says that we were sealed with the Spirit "after/when you believed."

So if you cannot show a perseverence required as a condition there, then this clearly says that by believing alone we are sealed by the Spirit and cannot lose salvation.

FA

 

RIGHT

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

If we could "lose salvation", "ANY SIN" would cause us to lose it, sin is sin.

"WHO" stops sinning after being saved, NONE

We're not saved because of the "absents of sin", but "in spite of our sins", Jesus paid for "ALL OF THEM".

The "DEBT" of sin is "PAID", "IN FULL", Jesus isn't dying "again".

 

I have SHOWN the relationship in scripture between the conditional nature of the promise of salvation and the Bible doctrine on perseverance.

You have been trying to "game" the Bible text in a way that says "it must all be in Eph 1:13-14 no other scripture can be included on the subject of the Gospel, salvation and the conditional nature of the promise".

You need to "game the text" rather than exegete it and I can see why as you continue to avoid the Bible texts on perseverance and the relationship the Bible draws between that and salvation.

Understood.

But why pretend that the "Seal" of the Holy Spirit is either not related to the Gospel promise of salvation OR that it must in some way negate the Bible teaching on the conditional nature of the gift as is seen in the Bible texts on perseverance.

How will "pretending" get you anywhere in an open discussion?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Please go back to the texts given here on perseverance and SHOW that the text says "any sin at all" will result in the SAME risk/damage/loss described IN THE TEXT about failure to persevere. SHOW your claim rather than imagining it for us.

Deal WITH the texts rather than outside of them.

In Christ,

Bob

 

quote:
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Ephesians 1:13, 14 In Him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation -- in Him when you believed -- were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit. He is the down payment of our inheritance, for the redemption of the possession, to the praise of His glory.
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Notice that it does NOT say "having been sealed you can not lost salvation.

Notice that it does NOT say "having been sealed you need not worry about the scripture's warnings regarding failure to persevere"

Notice that it does NOT say "having been sealed you lost your free will".

Notice that it does NOT say "having been sealed you no longer need to STRIVE as did Paul LEST He should be disqualified from the Gospel". 1Cor 9 end of chapter.

Notice that it does NOT says "Having been sealed you need not worry about the Romans 6 injunction to gain victory over sin as you are a SLAVE to the that which overcomes you"

The Ephesians one text is bent and wrenched by many today to meet their doctrinal usages -- but it can not be so easily edited to contradict scripture as many have supposed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Please go back to the texts given here on perseverance and SHOW that the text says "any sin at all" will result in the SAME risk/damage/loss described IN THE TEXT about failure to persevere. SHOW your claim rather than imagining it for us.

Deal WITH the texts rather than outside of them.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

"ONE SIN" was all Adam/Eve committed.

Once you're saved, you're no long under "WRATH" but under "CHASTISEMENT", God only chastises "HIS OWN".

You can rebell against God to the point of forgetting you have been saved.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

If we allow the "old man" (body of sin) to be "resurrected", God will destroy the "OLD MAN", but still save the soul.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Satan can't touch a "saved soul", it's "SEALED", but he can sure "devour" the "flesh".

1Pe 5:8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Names written the "Lamb's book of life" are "NEVER" erased, God doesn't make mistakes like that, however the "book of the living", are erased, never to be remembered.

Ps 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous. (in the lamb's book)

 

Please go back to the texts given here on perseverance and SHOW that the text says "any sin at all" will result in the SAME risk/damage/loss described IN THE TEXT about failure to persevere. SHOW your claim rather than imagining it for us.

Deal WITH the texts rather than outside of them.

In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]

This is equivocation. It is one thing to show that sin (all sin) requires repentance and forgiveness. (I never disputed that). It is another to show "specifically" the danger pointed out in the "failure to persevere texts" which is specificlly "shipwreck of faith" and "Christ will deny you" and "impossible to renew them" and "believed in vain" etc.

The point remains.


Your argument has been that these Perseverance texts that are addressed to those who are saved - "should not exist" because the risk, the danger they point out "can not exist" for the saved.

See yourself say it?

But the texts given have already shown MORE Than simply "forgetting about one's salvation".

Why not address those difficult points that so directly challenge your view?

Your view NEEDS to claim "CHrist will NOT DENY you he will just punish you as in the Heb 12 example for children -- no matter what Paul says in 2Tim 2"

You seem to be reluctant to go for the difficult points raised against your view.

So you are claiming that this "turn over to satan" thing must mean they were not saved to begin with?

In Eph 2:1-5 Paul argues that the unsaved are ALREADY under Satan's command. There could be no "turning over to Satan" of what Satan already has!

Or are you proposing that the SAVED state is ALSO "Turned over to Satan"???

Your approach has been to ignore some of the texts given (most of them in fact) that directly challenge your view and then to try to "extend" other texts as if they could be worked to the point of refuting the texts that are already challenging OSAS.

That is an impossible exercise.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan: //But why pretend that the "Seal" of the Holy Spirit is either not related to the Gospel promise of salvation OR that it must in some way negate the Bible teaching on the conditional nature of the gift as is seen in the Bible texts on perseverance.//

Fine. "Do the math" SHOW your alternative using the VERY texts brought up here that SHOW perseverance and SHOW The danger of failing to be an issue with salvation.

Instead of starting a line of thought and then dropping it just when "evidence" would have been useful - show your work. Go to the texts listed repeatedly here - and do the homework your "claim" implies that you can do.

Stopping short of that is to cut out all the substance from your reply.

In Christ,

Bob?

 

BobRyan: //How will "pretending" get you anywhere in an open discussion?//

#1. You got saved THIS year??!!

 

There IS conditional salvation and HERE ARE THE TEXTS that SHOW it.

Stated that REAL Examples of such failure exist.

Peter points out that only the saints are those who are “Partakers of the Holy Spirit” having “tasted the heavenly gift” AND “the powers of the age to come”

The “saved” experience is never called “worthless” with the result that one “ends up being burned”. Notice that Paul shows this to be the END of the person – not a mere “trial” by fire to be endured as we go on to even better things!. He says “Ends up being burned”!

And then there is always “Forgiveness revoked”!!

These texts do not describe a defacto “drift into heaven” - they show "conditional salvation" explicitly!

 

I left some out of the list above --

Under conditional salvation there is a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.

The OSAS doctrine guts the very core of the “motivation” we see in 1Cor 9 as Paul EXPLICITLY says “LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified”. OSAS goes after that point – directly, explicitly and without remorse.


Simple Question for Calvinists and OSAS promoters – who is the “WE” and the “US” in the following text?

What is the meaning of “He Also will deny US”?

In fact it is the condition of the “Shipwreck of faith” that Paul has already warned Timothy about. The very condition that OSAS denies.

It is as James says – a soul in death – doomed.

How can wander from the truth if they were never in the truth?

What is the result of bringing them back? “Save their soul from death”.

This also shows that the sins committed AFTER coming to Christ – DO count! “And will cover a multitude of sins”!. Hence the instruction in 1John 1:9 “If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us… AND to cleans us “ and this is post conversion for John says 1John 2:1 “These things I write to you that you sin not BUT if anyone does sin” (after coming to Christ) we “ have an advocate with the Father”. The fact of sin, sinning, repentance, forgiveness AFTER salvation is stated clearly.

 

Bob,

Amen. Well saying.

We must listen what the Bible saith, instead what men saying.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

One has to believe in order to be saved.

Is believing/faith one time thing?

 

DeafPostrib -- Thanks.

I am glad to see a place of common ground agreement.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob n Ed are arguing TWO sides of the same coin.

1. We can NEVER lose "eternal life" in the context of Eph. 2:8-9.

2. We CAN lose "eternal Life" in the context of Heb. 6:9-12.

A Christian has no fear of God revoking His gift of salvation in eternity, yet that SAME christian ought to fear God revoking his place in the Millenial Kingdom. And the latter point is EXACTLY the point our fellow BB memeber Bob r. is belaboring, yet he wants to apply those warnings to our heavenly salvation as if God is an Indian giver. And Mr. Ed is simply IGNORING clear warnings in Scripture that there IS something a christian stands to lose!!!

But yer BOTH in error in that ye have eyes yet cannot see, ye have ears yet cannot hear.

God says, "He that believeth on the Son shall not perish". God also says "He that endureth unto the end shall be saved". Obviously ya'gotta learn to RIGHTLY DIVIDE THE WORD OF TRUTH" or you end up in a mess. Kinda like the mess yer BOTH in right now.

G'day to ya.

 

So when Paul says "if we deny Him He will deny us" (2 Tim 2) you insert "will deny us in the Millennial Kingdom but not at the judgment seat of Christ before which we must all stand"

Right?

In Christ,

Bob

 

Well, it appears sola scriptura does not work.