Lord, Lord did we not do...?

Steaver,

bmerr here. I'd like to adress this post:

This learned man, who certainly has labored long and hard to get all those degrees, has missed some things that I find pretty obvious.

First, Rom 8:1 has a couple of qualifications for having no condemnation, the first of which is to be "in Christ", as Mr. Mitchell pointed out. This is one who has by faith, obeyed the gospel by believing in Jesus as the Son of God (Mark 16:16), repenting of sins (Acts 17:30), and being baptized for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38), thus becoming a Christian.

The second of the qualifications for being under no condemnation is to "...walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit".

The implication here is clear: the one in Christ, the Christian, who chooses to walk after the flesh is under condemnation, unless and until he repents and asks forgiveness.

Is it possible for a Christian to lie? to commit fornication? to steal? to be overcome by the cares of this world? to leave his first love? Indeed, it is possible for a Christian to fall into any of these sins. The Bible warns about such because it is possible.

If a Christian dies while unrepentant and unforgiven of these, or any sin, as a result of walking after the flesh, then they are under condemnation, and will be lost.

My other objection to Mr. Mitchell's comments is his misuse of 1 Cor 3:10-15.

Beginning in v. 5, Paul sets the work of the Christian minister in perspective. Notice the distinction between "we" and "ye" in v. 9,

"For we [Paul + Apollos] are labourers together with God: ye [Corinthians] are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."

In v. 10, Paul presents himself as a wise masterbuilder , an apostle, who has laid the foundation of Christ. He cautions every man to take heed how he builds on the foundation of Christ.

In v. 12, different building materials are listed, some precious and durable, some common and fragile. Let us remember that Christians are "lively stones...built up a spiritual house" (1 Pet 2:5). It is the Lord that adds us to His church (Acts 2:47).

In v. 13, Paul tells us that "Every man's work will be made manifest...and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is."

Now watch this carefully.

1 Cor 9:1 reads,

"Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?"

Eph 2:19-22: "Now therefore ye are no more stangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy themple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an holy habitation of God through the Spirit."

Phil 2:16: "Holding forth the word of life; that I may rejoice in the day of Christ, that I have not run in vain, neither laboured in vain.

1 Thes 3:5: "For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

The work that will be tested by fire is not our good works or bad works, it is Christians themselves. Those who make it their life's work to preach and teach the gospel will receive a reward if the people they converted to Christ endure in faithfulness to Christ, waking after the Spirit, in the light.

If, on the other hand, their converts walk after the flesh, in darkness, and are judged accordingly, they will suffer loss, though they themselves will be saved.

This passage does not teach OSAS. In fact, it teaches quite the opposite. Though I respect Mr. Mitchell for the time and effort he has put into his education, I'm going to have to disagree with him on this one.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

bmerr,

Most of you post is wrong. First, you make salvation dependent on faith and then the obedience done by works. Saved by faith and kept by works theory. If you knew the Greek Roman 8:1 '. . . who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit is not even in the Greek text, but was added to help you laity understand a little more easily.

Secondly, I John 3:9 indicates that the true Christian will not 'go on practicing sinning' coming from the Greek work {poeow}. This Holy Spirit never leaves the Christian and in the Petrine epistles tells us that He is in fact incorruptible in the life of the saint.

I Corinthians 3:11-16 reminds us all that from the least saint even to the great Apostles of the faith will pass through the fire of His judgment for evaluation. Some will barely be saved at the Judgment Seat of Christ after the rapture, but nevertheless will be saved by his mercy, though without any rewards for all eternity.

It's in the middle of the night for me, but this will get you back on a more Biblical footing. Leave the difficult texts for men of God like Dr. Mitchell and me.

As the Scripture tells us there are few spiritual fathers who can teach the Word of God, and this takes years of devotion to the Lord and years in Bible Colleges and seminaries. You are out of your league.

Rev. Dr. I. Ray Berrian

 

Great examples of those who have never been born of God. Not saved and never was. Those who are truly saved know the truth and the truth sets them free. One cannot know the truth about right and wrong but yet declare wrong to be alright.

This small sample of questions you raise are very good evangelizing tools to present to the lost. Ecspecially to those who think they are saved but their fruits declare otherwise.

Good stuff Keith!

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]I like the way Keith qualifies all these acts with "and believes it is ok". That certainly fits well with the License to Sin that Hope of Glory was talking about. As long as we feel bad about our sin and try to ask God to forgive us for all our sins, then we must be really saved, right? Our adultery will not prove that we are lost, it will be our lack of guilty feelings, true?

If we are going to look at a man's sins and say that these prove that Christ did not die for this man, we should be willing to apply the same standard to our own lives. If we remove the qualifier, the questions properly read:
Can a man continue to be an adulterer, and still be saved? Can a man be a murderer, and still be saved?

Can a man be an adulterer and still be saved? Can a Christian, bought by the blood commit adultery?

Matthew 5:28
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Is there an honest man who can say he never looked on a woman to lust after her? If you have done this, Christ says you have committed adultery in your heart.

Can a man be saved and be a murderer?
1 John 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

If you hate your brother, you will be judged a murderer. Can a Christian hate his brother?

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Galatians 5:21
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Adulterers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Murderers shall not inherit the kingdom of God. Do you suppose you can do these things in your heart and inherit the kingdom?

Matthew 15:19-20
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Talk about defiled, the Holy Spirit dwells in you, as the temple of the Holy Ghost. God will destroy you for defiling that temple, even if you defile it with impure thoughts.
1 Corinthians 3:16-17
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

1 John 5:18
18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

If this is speaking of eternal salvation, I don't think I know anyone who is saved.

 

Highly Exalted Reverend Doctor Theologian Pastor Clergyman Ray,

bmerr here. Please forgive me, a lowly layman, for daring call into question a canonical statement by such a learned one as Mr. Mitchell or yourself. How utterly foolish of me, an unlearned and ignorant man, to even dare post on the same website as one of your caliber. Perhaps one day I'll attain the Christ-like humility that you have mastered.

My sin is not the transgression of your opinion, sir, and you saying something is wrong doesn't make it so.

No, the Bible makes salvation depend on God's grace, and man's obedient faith in the word of God, for both the getting, and the keeping.

True, I don't know Greek, but my eyes work pretty well. In my Berry's Interlinear Text, there are Greek words corresponding to "...not according to flesh who walk, but according to Spirit".

If these words were added to the text for the sake of us "laity", as you alledge, what understanding are we to get from them? If the words don't mean what they say, how would adding them to the text help anyone's understanding?

Also, this "clergy/laity" distinction you make reference to is completely foreign to the NT. Neither word is contained in the Scriptures, but the concept is rooted in the apostate Roman Catholic organization, and is used by most denominational bodies to keep people in ignorance and error, just as it is used by the RCC.

1 John 3:9 reads, "Whosever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

A Christian is one who has repented, or turned away from the sins of the world. We all know that Christans can, and do sin sometimes. But because the seed of God, which is the word (Luke 8:11) is in us, we cannot continually live in sin with good conscience.

There are places a Christian "can't go", not because he is incapable of getting to the place, but because to go there would be in violation of his conscience, since he has been born of God.

However, the Bible gives us the names of some who did depart from the faith. It also tells us that their latter end will be worse than the first. Their turning away does not mean they were never saved, it means they turned from the holy commandment given them.

1 Pet 1:23, right? Yes, the word of God is the incorruptible seed by which we are born again, and it will live and abide forever. No argument with that. But that fact does not guarantee that one will always live faithfully according to the word.

While it is true that all men, from the least (like me), to the greatest (like you?) will stand before God to be judged according to their works (2 Cor 5:10, etc), I don't think this is the main teaching of 1 Cor 3:11-16.

What will these "skin of the teeth" types hear from the Lord? To my knowledge, there are only three "greetings" to be heard from Christ. Either:

- "Well done thou good and faithful servant",
- "Depart from me ye that work iniquity, I never knew you", or
- "Thou wicked and slothful servant...cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness".

I can't find any Scripture where Christ says, "Whew, you barely made it! Too bad you don't get any rewards for all eternity, but look on the bright side, at least you're not in hell!"

Does fatigue inflate your opinion of yourself, or are you always this high and mighty? I don't think I'd want to be in a league like what you're in.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

In Matt 7 the text says "NOT everyone WHO SAYS Lord Lord will ENTER the kingdom of heaven but rather he who DOES the will of the Father" -- then Christ gives the illustration of the OP.

He follows it with another illustration. The WISE man builds his house on the ROCK. The WISE man is said to be the one that HEARS and OBEYS.

If the point is "Obeying has nothing to do with" then this was the wrong chapter and wrong examples and wrong illustrations and wrong context for such an argument.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I believe this statement is made through pure ignorance. I am not a Baptist but I have conversated with many from dozens of different churches on these Baptist boards. I have not found one who backs up what you have said about them. This is pure slander. Maybe you could give evidence supporting your words. Post a creed or a Baptist sermon or comments that support your accusation please.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]Thank you steaver.....as a person who IS a baptist I must say that I was quite disturbed by what Hope of Glory posted in this regard. I have NEVER heard any baptist consciously teaching ANY passage as a "license to sin." Nor have I ever even heard anyone give that impression in any sermon or lesson Ive ever heard. In fact, we often go out of our way to be sure that people understand we do NOT believe in any license to sin, and then of course we are called legalists because of it..... </font>[/QUOTE]Most non-Baptist churches that I am aware of on more than just a surface level teach that salvation can be lost.

As a life-long Baptist, I have attended many different churches while travelling, and it is quite shocking how many of them teach that once you're saved, you're always saved, and we're all going to rule and reign in the Kingdom of the Heavens. Then, they follow that up with "you should be obedient because you love God".

Most of the Baptist churches that I've visited have taught some variation of this idea. That we're all just the same once we're saved, and since you're salvation can't be lost...

These churches range over many states. It's not a localized problem.

We had a guest speaker this past summer that we had to stop in the middle of a sermon and ask him to sit down because he was teaching this.

 

If I believed what you preach, i would feel doomed every day. In fact the awareness of my sinfilled body and mind is what makes me praise my Lord Jesus Christ daily for His salvation of me.

Be careful of your pride and your boast before your Lord. Jesus might just bring you to your knees to show you that His grace alone will be sufficient for you.

You are a sinner saved by grace, period! Declared a saint through Christ. You will be a sinner everyday of your life up until the day you die. Does this give you a license to sin? As far as condemnation goes it does, but don't use your freedom in Christ as a license to sin we are warned, because we all know that our sins will find us out. Thieves get tossed in prison, Adulterers have their lives ripped apart, Liars always lose in the end.

Tell me you do not sin every day bmerr and you will be committing the sin of a liar. Sorry, that is the truth.

Do you sin every day bmerr? Think about it before you answer. Think about this one bmerr, "Love the Lord thy God with all of your heart and all of your soul". Do you really give it your all? Judge yourself and tell me then how perfect you are. Don't tell me that anything less than perfect is ok. Less than perfect is sin. Either you are a sinner or not. Which is it?

God Bless!

 

1 Corinthians 3:14-15: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

 

Of course, this verse is intended for us to examine the actions of ourselves. But it is typically used by people to condemn the actions of others instead.

Not only is this unrighteousness at its best, but it perverts scripture.

 

Steaver,

bmerr here. Did I say I was perfect? Have I claimed sinlessness? You're taking my words to an extreme that is unreasonable. This is the part you quoted me on:

" If a Christian dies while unrepentant and unforgiven of these, or any sin, as a result of walking after the flesh, then they are under condemnation, and will be lost."

You may have overlooked the bolded part. Go to 1 John 1:7. It reads,

"But if we walk in the light as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

It's one thing to sin while walking in the light. I do it. Every Christian does it. If one sins while walking in the light, then the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses that one from sin.

What I was talking about is a Christian who turns away from following Christ, and goes back to living in willful, deliberate sin. For such a one to die in that condition would mean eternal punishment in hell. His latter end would be worse than the beginning (2 Pet 2:20-21).

Christ knows the weaknesses and infirmities of our flesh, having walked in it Himself. There is a difference in a "stumble" in one's walk with Christ, and an abandonment of Christ for the love of the world. A "stumble" does not necessitate a change in direction.

You seem to have a stumble in mind, while I was speaking of one's turning away.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

Hope of Glory,

a Baptist distinctive is also to live separated lives. Teaching OSAS does not contradict with this.

We believe that once you are saved you ARE always saved....something which is also borne out in the verse you later quoted.....

1 Corinthians 3:14-15: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


I understand that this is not an OSAS thread, but please do not equate OSAS with a false accusation of teaching "we can do what we want because it doesn't matter since we're saved."

I daresay that most likely you took that assumption from what you heard because of what you THOUGHT the preacher was saying....not because of actual words the preacher said. It seems that you THINK this is what they mean, so you just figure you must be right.

I know of absolutely no church that would ever claim that OSAS equals a carte blanche license to sin.

In fact, most OSAS churches also have quite strict standards and tend to preach hard against sin as well....so much so that they are often accused of being too legalistic.

 

I think you are misreading what I am writing. I most certainly preach and teach OSAS, and it is fully born out by Scripture. However...

I can show you many Baptist churches that teach a license to sin, and I have had lengthy discussions with the preachers there about the subject. There is no misunderstanding. In fact, one of those discussions came this past summer, in which the other preacher realized that what he was teaching was wrong.

The ones with which I am personally acquainted teach that once saved you're always saved no matter what you do, but you should do good because you love God. They don't teach any consequences for actions. (There are also varying degrees of this teaching, as you'll see in the next paragraph.)

Also, while I preach and teach OSAS, not all Baptist churches teach that. The ones that disturb me the most are the ones that teach "Once Saved Always Saved I think" or "Once Saved Always Saved most of the time". I have heard both preached in Baptist churches.

About the only common doctrine that I've seen in all Baptist churches is the belief in baptism instead of sprinkling.

I am at the Baptist church where I am now because of their doctrinal statements. I rejected others because of their doctrinal statements. Not all Baptist churches have the same doctrinal statements. (In fact, I know of one within a mile of my house that teaches the salvation message perfectly, even though they're KJV only, but that's the only message they teach week after week.)

 

Hope,

Why should anyone fear a temporary punishment on earth while in their minds they fully believe that they will still be with Jesus just like the person who by loving Jesus does what he commands?

What's the point? Believe it or not most people including professing Christians are just waiting to leave this place without the extra hassle of repenting. this is a side note.

 

While in Bible College and seminary I asked questions rather than to tell others what I thought was correct.

I would not even try to tell laity how to do their job, and yet I find that the spirit of many lay persons is they know more than their pastor. Interesting to me!

 

Hope,

Why should anyone fear a temporary punishment on earth while in their minds they fully believe that they will still be with Jesus just like the person who by loving Jesus does what he commands?

What's the point? Believe it or not most people including professing Christians are just waiting to leave this place without the extra hassle of repenting. this is a side note. </font>[/QUOTE]If a man realized that he was going to stand before the judgment seat of Christ and be rewarded for the things he has done, whether it be good or bad, they might have the proper motivating fear that God wants us to have. The modern teaching is that the believer will appear before the judgment seat to recieve crowns for the good things, and all the sins will be forgotten, as long as we don't sin too bad (because then we aren't really saved). Funny thing is, no one can tell you how much sin is too much, but everyone is sure they are on the right side of that line...

 

2 Thessalonians 2 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


It is not simply sinners that will be condemned, for they can be forgiven. It is the one who will not receive the truth, but rather chooses to believe a lie, in order to enjoy unrighteousness, that will be condemned.


Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Because all Christians (and only Christians) have to stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ to answer for our works in the flesh. I know that some people teach that we only go there to receive good things, but the Bible says that we will receive rewards, suffer loss, or even suffer chastisement.

Interesting that the word "judged" is translated as "damned" in 2 Thessalonians 2:12 as well as 1 Timothy 5:12. That would be interpretation and not translation.

 

Hope of Glory,

and I think I must have taken a few things you wrote the wrong way. I still have a hard time believing that this could be taught in a Baptist church, but I will not doubt your honesty in relating your experiences. Especially since you said you sat and talked with the pastor to get full understanding. I have seen so many people take one sentence out of a sermon and not listen to any of the sentences surrounding it, and then they come out of the service with these weird ideas of what the preacher said. I'm sitting in the same service, and I got some other impression completely.
Ive even experienced a man being accused of teaching SDA theology, when I was there at the same time and heard him clarify himself crystal clear.

I think I see now where you are going.

 

bapmom, the knowing in this sense is based on works. The bible says that if we do not obey the Lord, we don't know him. This is not talking about simple faith in the Lord's finished work, but the knowing that comes from walking in fellowship with the Lord daily, keeping His word.

1 John 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

A man may have 'good works' manifested outwardly, but be ignoring the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy and faith. This may be true even of a Christian who is born again by faith in the Lord, but walking after his own lusts. They may have wonderful outward displays of holiness, but the inside of the cup may be filthy. Secret sins will keep a lot of believers from being found faithful on that day.