3rd of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Me4Him · Dec 9, 2005

Bob:

ALL the following have been "fulfilled", "Spiritually" for the Church,

however, for Israel, they "HAVE NOT", Israel is still in "unbelief", and the 70 weeks "WILL NOT END" until they "ARE FULFILLED", exactly as Scripture says.

Israel "MUST/WILL" accept Jesus as "MESSIAH" before the 70 weeks will be finished.

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

1. to finish the transgression,
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was
contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; (the Law)

2. and to make an end of sins,
Joh 1:Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

3. and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
2Co 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself,

4. and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
Ro 5:21 even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus
Christ our Lord.

5. and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
Lu 24:27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

6. and to anoint the most Holy.
Ac 10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power:

Me4Him · Dec 9, 2005

"WHY" are..."some"...of these threads "WIDER" than the Monitor screen while most fit???

I need a "wrap to windows", option.

BobRyan · Dec 9, 2005

ALL the following have been "fulfilled", "Spiritually" for the Church,

however, for Israel, they "HAVE NOT", Israel is still in "unbelief", and the 70 weeks "WILL NOT END" until they "ARE FULFILLED", exactly as Scripture says.

Israel "MUST/WILL" accept Jesus as "MESSIAH" before the 70 weeks will be finished.
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That has never been the case and is never affirmed to be the case in all of scripture - regarding physical "non-spiritual Israel" for they NEVER were the focus of the promise.

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision?
27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law?
28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God. [/b]
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You seem to argue that in addition to spiritual Israel - literal physical "non-spiritual" Israel MUST also accept the Messiah or God's Word has failed ...

Rom 9
6But it is not as though the Word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel;
7nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “THROUGH ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS WILL BE NAMED.”
8That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
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Clearly your interpretation is not correct.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Dec 9, 2005

In addition to Martin Luther, Matthew Henry, Adam Clarke, John Wesley all seeing the clear and obvious truth of the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 REMAINING intact (rather than chopped, sliced diced and tossed out across many centuries of time gaps) we also find that Jamieson Fausset Brown seems to "get the obvious" as well.

Commentary Critical and Explanatory on the Whole Bible
Jamieson Fausset Brown
http://www.studylight.org/com/jfb/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=009

Daniel 9

21. I had seen in the vision at the beginning--namely, in the former vision by the river Ulai (Da 8:1, 16).
fly swiftly--literally, "with weariness," that is, move swiftly as one breathless and wearied out with quick running [GESENIUS]. English Version is better (Isa 6:2; Eze 1:6; Re 14:6).
time of . . . evening oblation--the ninth hour, three o'clock (compare 1Ki 18:36). As formerly, when the temple stood, this hour was devoted to sacrifices, so now to prayer. Daniel, during the whole captivity to the very last, with pious patriotism never forgot God's temple-worship, but speaks of its rites long abolished, as if still in use.

22. to give thee . . . understanding-- Da 8:16; Da 8:26 shows that the symbolical vision had not been understood. God therefore now gives "information" directly, instead of by symbol, which required interpretation.

23. At the beginning of thy supplications, &c.--The promulgation of the divine decree was made in heaven to the angels as soon as Daniel began to pray.
came forth--from the divine throne; so Da 9:22.
thou art greatly beloved--literally, "a man of desires" (compare Eze 23:6, 12); the object of God's delight. As the apocalyptic prophet of the New Testament was "the disciple whom Jesus loved," so the apocalyptic prophet of the Old Testament was "greatly beloved" of God.

the vision--the further revelation as to Messiah in connection with Jeremiah's prophecy of seventy years of the captivity. The charge to "understand" is the same as in Mt 24:15, where Rome primarily, and Antichrist ultimately, is referred to (compare Note, see on Da 9:27).

24. Seventy weeks--namely, of years; literally, "Seventy sevens"; seventy heptads or hebdomads; four hundred ninety years; expressed in a form of "concealed definiteness" [HENGSTENBERG], a usual way with the prophets. The Babylonian captivity is a turning point in the history of the kingdom of God. It terminated the free Old Testament theocracy. Up to that time Israel, though oppressed at times, was; as a rule, free. From the Babylonian captivity the theocracy never recovered its full freedom down to its entire suspension by Rome; and this period of Israel's subjection to the Gentiles is to continue till the millennium (Re 20:1-15), when Israel shall be restored as head of the New Testament theocracy, which will embrace the whole earth. The free theocracy ceased in the first year of Nebuchadnezzar, and the fourth of Jehoiakim; the year of the world 3338, the point at which the seventy years of the captivity begin. Heretofore Israel had a right, if subjugated by a foreign king, to shake off the yoke (Jud 4:1-5:31; 2Ki 18:7) as an unlawful one, at the first opportunity. But the prophets (Jer 27:9-11) declared it to be God's will that they should submit to Babylon. Hence every effort of Jehoiakim, Jeconiah, and Zedekiah to rebel was vain. The period of the world times, and of Israel's depression, from the Babylonian captivity to the millennium, though abounding more in afflictions (for example, the two destructions of Jerusalem, Antiochus' persecution, and those which Christians suffered), contains all that was good in the preceding ones, summed up in Christ, but in a way visible only to the eye of faith. Since He came as a servant, He chose for His appearing the period darkest of all as to His people's temporal state. Always fresh persecutors have been rising, whose end is destruction, and so it shall be with the last enemy, Antichrist. As the Davidic epoch is the point of the covenant-people's highest glory, so the captivity is that of their lowest humiliation. Accordingly, the people's sufferings are reflected in the picture of the suffering Messiah. He is no longer represented as the theocratic King, the Antitype of David, but as the Servant of God and Son of man; at the same time the cross being the way to glory (compare Da 9:1-27 with Da 2:34, 35, 44; 12:7). In the second and seventh chapters, Christ's first coming is not noticed, for Daniel's object was to prophesy to his nation as to the whole period from the destruction to the re-establishment of Israel; but this ninth chapter minutely predicts Christ's first coming, and its effects on the covenant people. The seventy weeks date thirteen years before the rebuilding of Jerusalem; for then the re-establishment of the theocracy began, namely, at the return of Ezra to Jerusalem, 457 B.C. So Jeremiah's seventy years of the captivity begin 606 B.C., eighteen years before the destruction of Jerusalem, for then Judah ceased to exist as an independent theocracy, having fallen under the sway of Babylon. Two periods are marked in Ezra: (1) The return from the captivity under Jeshua and Zerubbabel, and rebuilding of the temple, which was the first anxiety of the theocratic nation. (2) The return of Ezra (regarded by the Jews as a second Moses) from Persia to Jerusalem, the restoration of the city, the nationality, and the law. Artaxerxes, in the seventh year of his reign, gave him the commission which virtually includes permission to rebuild the city, afterwards confirmed to, and carried out by, Nehemiah in the twentieth year (Ezr 9:9; 7:11, &c.). Da 9:25, "from the going forth of the commandment to build Jerusalem," proves that the second of the two periods is referred to. The words in Da 9:24 are not, "are determined upon the holy city," but "upon thy people and thy holy city"; thus the restoration of the religious national polity and the law (the inner work fulfilled by Ezra the priest), and the rebuilding of the houses and walls (the outer work of Nehemiah, the governor), are both included in Da 9:25, "restore and build Jerusalem." "Jerusalem" represents both the city, the body, and the congregation, the soul of the state. Compare Ps 46:1-11; 48:1-14; 87:1-7. The starting-point of the seventy weeks dated from eighty-one years after Daniel received the prophecy: the object being not to fix for him definitely the time, but for the Church: the prophecy taught him that the Messianic redemption, which he thought near, was separated from him by at least a half millennium. Expectation was sufficiently kept alive by the general conception of the time; not only the Jews, but many Gentiles looked for some great Lord of the earth to spring from Judea at that very time [TACITUS, Histories, 5.13; SUETONIUS, Vespasian, 4]. Ezra's placing of Daniel in the canon immediately before his own book and Nehemiah's was perhaps owing to his feeling that he himself brought about the beginning of the fulfilment of the prophecy (Da 9:20-27) [AUBERLEN].

determined--literally, "cut out," namely, from the whole course of time, for God to deal in a particular manner with Jerusalem.
thy . . . thy--Daniel had in his prayer often spoken of Israel as "Thy people, Thy holy city"; but Gabriel, in reply, speaks of them as Daniel's ("thy . . . thy") people and city, God thus intimating that until the "everlasting righteousness" should be brought in by Messiah, He could not fully own them as His [TREGELLES] (compare Ex 32:7). Rather, as God is wishing to console Daniel and the godly Jews, "the people whom thou art so anxiously praying for"; such weight does God give to the intercessions of the righteous (Jas 5:16-18).

finish--literally, "shut up"; remove from God's sight, that is, abolish (Ps 51:9) [LENGKERKE]. The seventy years' exile was a punishment, but not a full atonement, for the sin of the people; this would come only after seventy prophetic weeks, through Messiah.

make an end of--The Hebrew reading, "to steal," that is, to hide out of sight (from the custom of sealing up things to be concealed, compare Job 9:7), is better supported.

make reconciliation for--literally, "to cover," to overlay (as with pitch, Ge 6:14). Compare Ps 32:1.

bring in everlasting righteousness--namely, the restoration of the normal state between God and man (Jer 23:5, 6); to continue eternally (Heb 9:12; Re 14:6).

seal up . . . vision . . . prophecy--literally, "prophet." To give the seal of confirmation to the prophet and his vision by the fulfilment.

anoint the Most Holy--primarily, to "anoint," or to consecrate after its pollution "the Most Holy" place but mainly Messiah, the antitype to the Most Holy place (Joh 2:19-22). The propitiatory in the temple (the same Greek word expresses the mercy seat and propitiation, Ro 3:25), which the Jews looked for at the restoration from Babylon, shall have its true realization only in Messiah. For it is only when sin is "made an end of" that God's presence can be perfectly manifested. As to "anoint," compare Ex 40:9, 34. Messiah was anointed with the Holy Ghost (Ac 4:27; 10:38). So hereafter, God-Messiah will "anoint" or consecrate with His presence the holy place at Jerusalem (Jer 3:16, 17; Eze 37:27, 28), after its pollution by Antichrist, of which the feast of dedication after the pollution by Antiochus was a type.

25. from the going forth of the commandment--namely the command from God, whence originated the command of the Persian king (Ezr 6:14). AUBERLEN remarks, there is but one Apocalypse in each Testament. Its purpose in each is to sum up all the preceding prophecies, previous to the "troublous times" of the Gentiles, in which there was to be no revelation. Daniel sums up all the previous Messianic prophecy, separating into its individual phases what the prophets had seen in one and the same perspective, the temporary deliverance from captivity and the antitypical final Messianic deliverance. The seventy weeks are separated (Da 9:25-27) into three unequal parts, seven, sixty-two, one. The seventieth is the consummation of the preceding ones, as the Sabbath of God succeeds the working days; an idea suggested by the division into weeks. In the sixty-nine weeks Jerusalem is restored, and so a place is prepared for Messiah wherein to accomplish His sabbatic work (Da 9:25, 26) of "confirming the covenant" (Da 9:27). The Messianic time is the Sabbath of Israel's history, in which it had the offer of all God's mercies, but in which it was cut off for a time by its rejection of them. As the seventy weeks end with seven years, or a week, so they begin with seven times seven, that is, seven weeks. As the seventieth week is separated from the rest as a period of revelation, so it may be with the seven weeks. The number seven is associated with revelation; for the seven spirits of God are the mediators of all His revelations (Re 1:4; 3:1; 4:5). Ten is the number of what is human; for example, the world power issues in ten heads and ten horns (Da 2:42; 7:7). Seventy is ten multiplied by seven, the human moulded by the divine. The seventy years of exile symbolize the triumph of the world power over Israel. In the seven times seventy years the world number ten is likewise contained, that is, God's people is still under the power of the world ("troublous times"); but the number of the divine is multiplied by itself; seven times seven years, at the beginning a period of Old Testament revelation to God's people by Ezra, Nehemiah, and Malachi, whose labors extend over about half a century, or seven weeks, and whose writings are last in the canon; and in the end, seven years, the period of New Testament revelation in Messiah. The commencing seven weeks of years of Old Testament revelation are hurried over, in order that the chief stress might rest on the Messianic week. Yet the seven weeks of Old Testament revelation are marked by their separation from the sixty-two, to be above those sixty-two wherein there was to be none.

Messiah the Prince--Hebrew, Nagid. Messiah is Jesus' title in respect to Israel (Ps 2:2; Mt 27:37, 42). Nagid, as Prince of the Gentiles (Isa 55:4). Nagid is applied to Titus, only as representative of Christ, who designates the Roman destruction of Jerusalem as, in a sense, His coming (Mt 24:29-31; Joh 21:22). Messiah denotes His calling; Nagid, His power. He is to "be cut off, and there shall be nothing for Him." (So the Hebrew for "not for Himself," Da 9:26, ought to be translated). Yet He is "the Prince" who is to "come," by His representative at first, to inflict judgment, and at last in person.

wall--the "trench" or "scarped rampart" [TREGELLES]. The street and trench include the complete restoration of the city externally and internally, which was during the sixty-nine weeks.
26. after threescore and two weeks--rather, the threescore and two weeks. In this verse, and in Da 9:27, Messiah is made the prominent subject, while the fate of the city and sanctuary are secondary, being mentioned only in the second halves of the verses. Messiah appears in a twofold aspect, salvation to believers, judgment on unbelievers (Lu 2:34; compare Mal 3:1-6; 4:1-3). He repeatedly, in Passion week, connects His being "cut off" with the destruction of the city, as cause and effect (Mt 21:37-41; 23:37, 38; Lu 21:20-24; 23:28-31). Israel might naturally expect Messiah's kingdom of glory, if not after the seventy years' captivity, at least at the end of the sixty-two weeks; but, instead of that, shall be His death, and the consequent destruction of Jerusalem.
not for himself--rather, "there shall be nothing to Him" [HENGSTENBERG]; not that the real object of His first coming (His spiritual kingdom) should be frustrated; but the earthly kingdom anticipated by the Jews should, for the present, come to naught, and not then be realized. TREGELLES refers the title, "the Prince" (Da 9:25), to the time of His entering Jerusalem on an ass's colt, His only appearance as a king, and six days afterwards put to death as "King of the Jews."

the people of the prince--the Romans, led by Titus, the representative of the world power, ultimately to be transferred to Messiah, and so called by Messiah's title, "the Prince"; as also because sent by Him, as His instrument of judgment (Mt 22:7).

end thereof--of the sanctuary. TREGELLES takes it, "the end of the Prince," the last head of the Roman power, Antichrist.

with a flood--namely, of war (Ps 90:5; Isa 8:7, 8; 28:18). Implying the completeness of the catastrophe, "not one stone left on another."
unto the end of the war--rather, "unto the end there is war."
determined--by God's decree (Isa 10:23; 28:22).

27. he shall confirm the covenant--Christ. The confirmation of the covenant is assigned to Him also elsewhere. Isa 42:6, "I will give thee for a covenant of the people" (that is, He in whom the covenant between Israel and God is personally expressed); compare Lu 22:20, "The new testament in My blood"; Mal 3:1, "the angel of the covenant"; Jer 31:31-34, describes the Messianic covenant in full. Contrast Da 11:30, 32, "forsake the covenant," "do wickedly against the covenant." The prophecy as to Messiah's confirming the covenant with many would comfort the faithful in Antiochus' times, who suffered partly from persecuting enemies, partly from false friends (Da 11:33-35). Hence arises the similarity of the language here and in Da 11:30, 32, referring to Antiochus, the type of Antichrist.
with many-- (Isa 53:11; Mt 20:28; 26:28; Ro 5:15, 19; Heb 9:28).
in . . . midst of . . . week—The seventy weeks extend to A.D. 33. Israel was not actually destroyed till A.D. 79, but it was so virtually, A.D. 33, about three or four years after Christ's death, during which the Gospel was preached exclusively to the Jews. When the Jews persecuted the Church and stoned Stephen (Ac 7:54-60), the respite of grace granted to them was at an end (Lu 13:7-9). Israel, having rejected Christ, was rejected by Christ, and henceforth is counted dead (compare Ge 2:17 with Ge 5:5; Ho 13:1, 2), its actual destruction by Titus being the consummation of the removal of the kingdom of God from Israel to the Gentiles (Mt 21:43), which is not to be restored until Christ's second coming, when Israel shall be at the head of humanity (Mt 23:39; Ac 1:6, 7; Ro 11:25-31; 15:1-32). The interval forms for the covenant-people a great parenthesis.

he shall cause the sacrifice . . . oblation to cease—distinct from the temporary "taking away" of "the daily" (sacrifice) by Antiochus (Da 8:11; 11:31). Messiah was to cause all sacrifices and oblations in general to "cease" utterly. There is here an allusion only to Antiochus' act; to comfort God's people when sacrificial worship was to be trodden down, by pointing them to the Messianic time when salvation would fully come and yet temple sacrifices cease. This is the same consolation as Jeremiah and Ezekiel gave under like circumstances, when the destruction of Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar was impending (Jer 3:16; 31:31; Eze 11:19). Jesus died in the middle of the last week, A.D. 30. His prophetic life lasted three and a half years; the very time in which "the saints are given into the hand" of Antichrist (Da 7:25). Three and a half does not, like ten, designate the power of the world in its fulness, but (while opposed to the divine, expressed by seven) broken and defeated in its seeming triumph; for immediately after the three and a half times, judgment falls on the victorious world powers (Da 7:25, 26). So Jesus' death seemed the triumph of the world, but was really its defeat (Joh 12:31). The rending of the veil marked the cessation of sacrifices through Christ's death (Le 4:6, 17; 16:2, 15; Heb 10:14-18). There cannot be a covenant without sacrifice (Ge 8:20; 9:17; 15:9, &c.; Heb 9:15). Here the old covenant is to be confirmed, but in a way peculiar to the New Testament, namely, by the one sacrifice, which would terminate all sacrifices (Ps 40:6, 11). Thus as the Levitical rites approached their end, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and Daniel, with ever increasing clearness, oppose the spiritual new covenant to the transient earthly elements of the old.
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In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Dec 9, 2005

So that's Martin Luther, Adam Clarke, John Wesley, Matthew Henry and Jamieson Fausset Brown all "getting the obvious" on this "No Bible timeline in all of scripture is hacked sliced diced and strewn over time with huge gaps inserted" point.

So how did that slice-dice error creep into the church? An interesting story indeed.

In Christ,

Bob

Me4Him · Dec 9, 2005

Israel "MUST/WILL" accept Jesus as "MESSIAH" before the 70 weeks will be finished.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That has never been the case and is never affirmed to be the case in all of scripture - regarding physical "non-spiritual Israel" for they NEVER were the focus of the promise.
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UH????

Da 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,

Who is "THY PEOPLE", "Daniel's People"?????

and "WHAT" is "THY HOLY CITY", New york???

Come on Bob, I figured you were at least in "Reading Comprehesion 102" or higher, instead of 101.

Ed Edwards · Dec 9, 2005

Originally posted by Me4Him:
"WHY" are..."some"...of these threads "WIDER" than the Monitor screen while most fit???

I need a "wrap to windows", option.
Click to expand...

Long links.
There is a place to make short links but I don't
have a hot pointer to it???

Ed Edwards · Dec 9, 2005

BobRyan: //God inserted "no gaps" between the 7 weeks
and the 62 weeks. Did you? (no? Why not?)//

Amen, Yes, God inserted 'no gaps'. So I won't either.

God inserted "no gaps" between the 62 weeks and the
last 1 week. Did you? (yes? Why here?)

You are incorrect. God inserted the gap.

Romans 11:25 (Christian Standard Bible, Holman, 2003 /HCSB/ ):

So that you will not be conceited, brothers,
I do not want you to be unaware of this secret:
a partial hardening has come to Israel until the
full number of the Gentiles has come in.

How can 'until' just be "ignored"??
What is held in abayence 'until'?
The partial hardening of Israel delays what?
I suggest that Daniel 9:24 is delayed - the Salvation
of national Israel. The pretribulation rapture of the
mostly gentile universal church and
the Tribulation Time on the un-saved gentiles is God's
Plan for the Ages to save a maximum number of Israeli.

This time for the 'full number of the Gentiles' to 'come in'
is called "the Age of Gentiles" from this verse. It is the
'gap' between Daniel's 69th and 70th week. Or if you divide
the 70 weeks into 7+62+1, then the 'gap' is between the 62ed
week and the following 1 week. This gap I like to call the
'Church Age' for it is the time period during which God's work
of Grace because of the sacrifice of God's Perfect Lamb,
Messiah Jesus - when His Grace is shed through membership
in the Universal Church to many Gentiles.
This gap is called the 'Age of Grace'
for it is the time period during which God's work
of Grace because of the sacrifice of God's Perfect Lamb,
Messiah Jesus - when His Grace is shed upon many Gentiles
and their brothers: Messanic Jews. It is the only age where
I'm sure salvation is by calling Jesus 'Lord' while believing
that God raised Jesus from the Dead. I first did this in
April 1952 and Jesus became (and still is - praise God for OSAS)
not only my Lord but also my Savior. And part of the ETERNAL LIFE
package might be being able to partake in the pretribulation
rapture of God's Gentile Church.

As for Martin Luther, Matthew Henry, Mary B. Ellen,
and John Wesley - I have
no interest in their religions - I am a Pretrib Baptist Christian
not a Lutheran, Universalist, Adventist, or Methodist.

I will take the gap between the 69th and 70th week created by
God's 'UNTIL' in Romans 11:25 instead of the 'no gap' of
these ladies and gentlemen.

Ed Edwards · Dec 9, 2005

BobRyan: //You insert the phrase "rhetoric device" has an excuse to open up
the text and re-arrange it to your liking.

//But notice - you NEED the arrangement that you provide to SHOW
how events will work out in your own view.

//You then deny God's Word that SAME accuracy as IT presents
that SAME subject -- namely "end time sequence".

//So God's Word presents the "unwanted sequence" in Matt 24 and you "re-arrange it".//

The Old Testament Law requires two or more people to bring charges
against me. You are ONE SHORT. Recommend the other have a degree
in English and know what 'polysyndeton' means. (BTW, I've never found
an on-line description of the uses of the 'polysyndeton' that I didn't
write). You know, someone who isn't shocked to find that the
Holy Bible, though frequently literal, also uses communative devises
to communate God's truth.

IMHO God created circumstances for me so the Holy Spirt could
show me this truth about Matthew 24.
I note most Pretribs say something hokey like "Matthew is
for Jews only, not for Gentiles. So Matthew doesn't mention the
pretribulation rapture which is proved somewhere else.

Well my Pastor for the last 10 years has an undergraduate degree
in ENGLISH. He teaches about retorical devices and literary techniques.
Several times he explained about the polysyndeton and it's uses.
I know when I was in elementary school (49 years ago for grade 6)
the teacher said: "And you are never to start a sentence with 'and'"
that was a joke tee hee. Anyway, they did say "Never start a
sentence with the word 'and' ". Then you go over and see that
nearly every sentence and nearly every verse starts with 'and'.
You go to the 24th chapter of Matthew and nearly every verse
starts with 'and' (or it's time relative 'then' or its negative
compare word: 'but'.)

(Not only are the Science Teachers dissing Genesis Chapter 1,
so are the English teachers )

'And' can mean one of the following. Which it means
in the Bible can made a difference.

1. as the ancient language form of our modern outline
2. the polysyndeton
3. connector of two sets denoting equal sets
(equal sets are two sets containing the same objects)
4. connector of a set and it's subset
(a subset contanins members only of the set, but not all the set
is that subset)
5. connector of two similar but unequal sets

I.E. the meaning of 'and' cannot be determined by the form
of the 'and' either in Greek or English or Hebrew. Only
with the context and the Holy Spirit can one correctly
understand the Bible.

But I'll tell you this, the pretribulation rapture
has a lot more home in it (can be used to encourage)
than does the post-tribulation ONLY resurrection.

I need to study more why most the gloomy
post-tribulation ONLY resurrectionists are mostly (over 80%)
anti-OSAS (once saved, always saved) whereas most pretrib
rapturists are OSAS. I'm working on it.
But it does show to me that most who think you can FLUNK
eternity after putting yourself in God's hands also
think that those living at the beginning of the Tribulation
have to be forced to FLUNK. Sorry, not my kind of God.

Here is an example of the two similiar type with unequal
membership sets that can be connected by 'and':

From 2 Thess 2:1

1. "coming of the Lord"
2. "our gathering together to him"

Me4Him: //
"EVERY FEAST" has a "corresponding" event in the "NEW TESTIMENT",
your doctrine "TOTALLY OMITS" the "FEAST OF TRUMPETS". (Rapture)//

Exactly so, Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!!!

BTW, some will argue against the pretrib rapture saying
"the word 'rapture' is not in the Bible". That is a true
statement only to those who use only an English Bible.
In fact, the Latin word 'rapture' is found in the Latin Vulgate
Bible (LVB) in 4:17, in the English 'caught up'.
So if we want to be strict English Onlyist we need to
call the pretribulation rapture the 'pretribulation caught up'.

I don't see where anybody addressed my statement:
//BTW, I believed in the pre-tribulation rapture/resurrection
before i saw these three scriptures as pretrib.
So even if you can prove all three of these scriptures
in error, I'll still hope in the pre-tribulation rapture
as will 90% of Baptists and kindred Christians.//

Come to think of it, it is an honor that nobody even thinks
they know how to refute my statement.

So those whom i debate can have fun, even if you successfully
refute my three main pre-tribulation rapture passages you
still have to argue with the majority of Baptists who
USE DIFFERENT PASSAGES Now you know how the snowball that
was given to Satan felt Doggone, another Lion done stuck
in a den of Daniels

Ed Edwards · Dec 9, 2005

Me4Him:// 2Th 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only
he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall
consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with
the brightness of his coming:

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan
with all power and signs and lying wonders,

First, the rapture is being discussed here then
the appearence of the Antichrist.

Let's take it verse at a time.

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only "HE" (holy Ghost)
who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

And then shall that Wicked be revealed

The "Sequence" here is the removable of the Holy Ghost"
(church rapture) AND THEN that is "AFTERWARDS", the AC is revealed,//

Amen, Brother Me4Him - Preach it! Tell it like its going to be!!!

Me4Him to Bro BobRyan: //You're attempting to "COMBINE" both the "rapture/AC revealed"
and "destroying the AC" into "ONE EVENT", can't be,
the "TRIB PERIOD" must occur "BETWEEN" them.//

Amen! actually the two events happen at either end of ONE DAY.
But that 'day' is a 7-year prophetic 'day' not your run of the
mill earth-type 48-hour-day.

Ed Edwards · Dec 9, 2005

Ed: //How do you outline Chapter 24 of Matthew?//

BobRyan: //#1 The sequence is preserved.//

Oh? Which sequence?
I preserve the sequence of the QUESTIONS in verse 3.

How do you explain the place in the sequence of Matthew 24:33?
I.e. which 'day' is being spoken of?

BobRyan: //#3. No slicing and dicing.//

Matthew 24 and 25 contain Matthew's account of the
Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD). Parallel passages are in
Mark 13 and Luke 21 but no two of the sources agree on the
ORDER of the details. If you set Matthew as the standard,
then you slice and dice Mark and Luke.
If you set Mark as the standard timeline, then you slice
and dice Matthew and Luke.
If you set Luke as the standard for the sequence, then
you slice and dice Matthew and Mark.
And Luke 17 even has some things that are said in Matthew 24.
I.e (in other words) you can't explain the 3 MOD accounts
without slicing and dicing, which you condemn. So you condemn
yourself.

Note that Luke 21 uses the polysyndeton 'and'.
Note that Mark 13 uses the polysyndeton 'and'.
But you don't know what 'polysyndeton' means???

Reminds me of several years ago when the sub-tropical high
(pressure area) set up over Oklahoma and was there for like 6 weeks
one summer. The paper said "The sub-tropical high is the longest
lasting weather feature on earth. Little is known about it."
This weather feature is similar in the Jovian atmosphere to the
great red spot. The great red spot was notices in the 1500s when
the telescope was invented. It is still there.
The most long-lived weather phenomena is UNKNOWN by weather persons?
The most use Literary devise, the 'polysyndeton' is UNKNOWN
by prophecy debaters. Come on, something is wrong here - bad wrong.

Matt 24
14 This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached
in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations,
and then the end will come.
---
BobRyan: //Not until the Gospel has gone into the entire world - will Christ
come - and this was spoken by Christ pre-cross and then published
by Matt post-cross - as a "future event". The Gospel going
into all the world - an event we "Still" wait for.//

Uh, get back into your Bible:
By 61AD this prophecy was first announced:
Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

Generic 'in all the world' writing:
---------------------------------
Matthew 24:14 (HCSB):

This good news of the kingdom will be proclaimed
in all the world as a testimony to all nations.
And then the end will come.

Items quoted from THE ALMANAC OF THE CHRISTIAN WORLD,
1991-1992 Edition (Tyndale, 1990), page 305+.

61AD - Colossians 1:6 (HCSB):
the gospel that has come to you. It is bearing fruit
and growing all over the world, just as it has
among you since the day you heard it and recognized
God's grace in the truth.

c. 140AD - Hermas writes: "The Son of God ... has
been preached to the ends of the earth" (Shepherd
of Hermas).

197AD - Tertullian (c160-222) ... writes ... "There
is no nation indeed which is not Christian" ...

c. 205AD - Clement of Alexandria (c155-215) ... writes
"The whole world, with Athens and Greece, has already
become the domain of the Word."

c. 310 - Eusebius of Caesarea (c265-339) writes ...
""The doctrine of the Savious
has irradiated the whole Oikumene
(whole inhabited earth)"

378 - Jerome (c345-419) writes: "From India to Britian, all
nations resound with the death and resurrection of CHrist".
estimates 1.9 million Christians to have been marytred
since AD33 (out of 120 million Christians). ...

etc.
---------------------------------

BobRyan · Dec 9, 2005

BobRyan: //#1 The sequence is preserved.//

Ed
Oh? Which sequence?
I preserve the sequence of the QUESTIONS in verse 3.
Click to expand...

I did not re-arrange vs 3. I left it as is - first.

I Also did not re-arrange any other texts in the chapter -- how about you?

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Dec 9, 2005

BobRyan: //#3. No slicing and dicing.//

Ed
Matthew 24 and 25 contain Matthew's account of the Mount Olivet Discourse (MOD). Parallel passages are in Mark 13 and Luke 21 but no two of the sources agree on the ORDER of the details
Click to expand...

Actually I show that the order for
#1 the tribulation -
#2 then "Coming of the Lord"
#3 then "our gathering together to Him"

is the same in Matt 24, in 1Thess 4, in 2Thess 2, in Rev 16-20 and "oh yes" in Mark 13 and in Luke 21!

Mark 13
The Return of Christ

24"But in those days, after that tribulation, THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT,

25AND THE STARS WILL BE FALLING from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.

26"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN CLOUDS with great power and glory.

27"And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
Click to expand...

That same order is seen in Luke 21 as was seen in Mark 13 AND in Matt 24!!

Luke 21
22because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled.
23"Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people;
24and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

The Return of Christ
25"There will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth dismay among nations, in perplexity at the roaring of the sea and the waves,
26men fainting from fear and the expectation of the things which are coming upon the world; for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
27"Then they will see THE SON OF MAN COMING IN A CLOUD with power and great glory.
28"But when these things begin to take place, straighten up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near."
Click to expand...

So you seem to be bent on changing the "easy part" that IS the same in all these places.

What is up with that?

The very sequence you deny - is there in ALL of them!!

Matt 24
29 ""But immediately after the tribulation of those days THE SUN WILL BE DARKENED, AND THE MOON WILL NOT GIVE ITS LIGHT, AND THE STARS WILL FALL from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.

30 And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.
31 ""And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.

Click to expand...

Why deny the most obvious, easy, explicit, consistent aspect??

I have shown that the order for
#1 the tribulation -
#2 then "Coming of the Lord"
#3 then "our gathering together to Him"

is the same in Matt 24, in 1Thess 4, in 2Thess 2, in Rev 16-20 and "oh yes" in Mark 13 and in Luke 21!

In Christ,

Bob

Me4Him · Dec 10, 2005

Bob, take a look at the following chart, Jesus's "First coming" was "Spiritual", seen ONLY BY those with "Spiritual vision", and the cast of "Characters/events",

However, this "same cast of Characters/events" will return during the trib, seen by ALL with "NATURAL VISION".

The "preterists" "see" the first coming as being the "ONLY COMING", and believe the TRIB is "past",

Most of the church "see" only the Trib, and believe "everything" is "future",

"FEW" see Both sides.

I can list many other events occurring "BOTH" "spiritually" then later "Literally", in addition to the list on the chart.

But the point is this, Jesus's "first coming" was only seen by those with "Spiritual vision", and in the rapture, he will ONLY BE SEEN by those with "Spiritual vision", to see him. (saved),

he won't be "SEEN/RECOGNIZED" as the "MESSIAH" by the "World" until he does "LITERALLY" appear "in the sky",

So, the "SPIRITUAL REVEALING" of Jesus's CONTINUES through the rapture of the church, (seen only by the saved)

and later a "Literal" (physical) revealing to "THE WORLD".

webdog · Dec 10, 2005

But that 'day' is a 7-year prophetic 'day' not your run of the
mill earth-type 48-hour-day .
Click to expand...

I was wondering why my days go by so fast!

BobRyan · Dec 10, 2005

Jesus came physically and literally in the literal incarnation as a literal physical child literally seen BOTH by believers and unblievers.

His literal followers physically followed Him during the literal time of His physical ministry on Earth at His literal physical first coming.

Obviously.

The rapture event of 1Thess 4 was "FUTURE" to the NT saints day and had NOT already happened nor did Paul say that the 1Thess 4 resurrection and rapture was "in the midst of happening". Paul specifically addressed the heresy of those who claim the resurrection had already taken place in 2Thess 2:1-4.

This is beyond dispute.

The first resurrection of Rev 20 happens AFTER the literal, physical visible appearing of Christ in Rev 19. It is the resurrection of the saints, the blessed and holy, the righteous - the "dead in Christ" also predicted in the future in 1Thess 4.

This is the "easy part".

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Dec 10, 2005

As DAniel 2 points out - when Christ comes - he destroys all human empires and establishes His own kindgom. There is NO Roman empire that comes to life after the "coming of the Lord" mentioned in Both 1Thess 4 and 2Thess 2.

valueoftruth · Dec 10, 2005

I think the rapture is one of the most interesting discussions in the world. However, this thread has gotten way too deep for me to jump into. To compensate for my lack of desire to debate, I've placed a link to an article I hope is useful.

The Blessed Hope: A Closer Look Into The Rapture
http://www.valueoftruth.com/therapture.html

Take care.
---Brian
www.valueoftruth.com

BobRyan · Dec 10, 2005

Originally posted by Me4Him:

Who is "THY PEOPLE", "Daniel's People"?????

and "WHAT" is "THY HOLY CITY", New york???
Click to expand...

Jews and Jerusalem "obviously".

And what is even more obvious is that the city BUILT in Dan 9 is the same city that is destroyed by the Romans in Dan 9.

(An obvious point that the slice/dice/chop model must ignore).

Another obvious point is that this Messianic 490 year timeline INCLUDES the Messianic events it lists.

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3504/3.html#000043

Jamieson Fausset Brown seems to "get it"

Come on Bob, I figured you were at least in "Reading Comprehesion 102" or higher, instead of 101. [/QB][/QUOTE]

Tiggy · Dec 10, 2005

Do you coincide the rapture with the last trumpet to be sounded as in Revelation chapter 11

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