3rd of 2 Thess. 2:1-4, the Rapture

Me4Him · Dec 24, 2005

Originally posted by UUall:
JUDE 1 [14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Hi Ed
Who are these ten thousand of saints?
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The above verses describe the "First Resurrection".

Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives,

Re 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Re 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Ed Edwards · Dec 24, 2005

Amen, Brother Me4Him -- Preach it!

Originally posted by UUall:
JUDE 1 [14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Hi Ed
Who are these ten thousand of saints?
Click to expand...

Me4Him answers this question nicely.

Me4Him has done extensive research into
the Pretribulation Rapture and has a whole
bunch of charts that clearify the sequence
of events. These charts are found here
at BB (Baptist Board) at:
http://www.baptistboard.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi/topic/28/3398.html?

There is lots of good reading there.
As far as I can tell Brother Me4Him PAYS
to have his studies shown.

Ed Edwards · Dec 24, 2005

Originally posted by UUall:
The rapture and why its preached has always intriged me. Money? Lucre?
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Actually I know folks who do that. For
example Tim LaHaye has become a millionare
over the matter.

You will note my pretribulation rapture thoughs
vary from LaHaye.

1. I teach three more proofs of the
pretribulation rapture.

A. Earlier folks told me that the
passage in 2 Thessalonians 2 was about the
coming of a great apostasy that was coming.
When the great apostasy gets so sever
nobody can do anything about it, then
the man of apostasy (proabably the Antichrist)
will make the apostasy worse.

Sorry, the KJV calls it a 'falling away' and
I think it is the pretribulation rapture
(caught up) when we fall right off this world
right into the hands of our Blessed Lord and
Savior, Messiah Yeshua.

B. Then folks told me it was real strange
that John had such a neat revelation but didn't
hear about the pretribulation rapture.

Oops, boys, but thre pretrib rapture is in
Revelation BY TYPE in Revelation 4:1.

C. The folks told me it was real strange
that Jesus never spake of the pretribulation
rapture.

Sorry folks, if you let the questions the
Disciples ask in Matthew 24:3 illuminate
Matthew 4:4-25, and if you realise that in
Greek without puntuation that Matthew was
written in they had no MICROSOFT WORD to
make neat outlines -- so they use
polysendton 'and' (Greek: 'kai').

E. So think you folks for your questions,
comments, responses, etc. That is the only
way I can learn new stuff. I don't think of
all these neat things by myself, you know

2. Tim LaHaye teaches that one of the
differences between the pre-trib rapture
and the post-trib resurrection (both
part of the FIRST RESURRECTION) is that
the pretribulation rapture allows time
(7 years) for the Judgement Seat (Bema)
of Christ in heaven. It doesn't. I did
the numbers. There isn't time for all the
saved of all the previous ages
and for those raptured to individally recieve
awards sequentialy. Takes more than 7-years.
So if there are parallel awards, then might
as well do it all in an instant during
the final Second Coming resurrection.

UUall · Dec 24, 2005

But who exactly are the "ten thousands of saints" that are mentioned?

Me4Him · Dec 24, 2005

Originally posted by UUall:
But who exactly are the "ten thousands of saints" that are mentioned?
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They are the OT saints, rapture Church and trib saints, all return with Jesus for the "Mill Reign".

1Th 3:13 at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.

Check out the "link" ED posted.

BobRyan · Dec 25, 2005

Originally posted by UUall:
JUDE 1 [14] And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,[15] To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Hi Ed
Who are these ten thousand of saints?
Click to expand...

Jude -
14It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, "Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,

15to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him."
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2 Thess 1
5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.
6 For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted and to us as well when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire,
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
10 when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day, and to be marveled at among all who have believed for our testimony to you was believed.
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Rev 19
14 And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses.
15 From His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may strike down the nations, and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.
16 And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "" KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.''

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds which fly in midheaven, "" Come, assemble for the great supper of God,
18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders and the flesh of mighty men and the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them and the flesh of all men, both free men and slaves, and small and great.''
19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
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In this case it appears to refer primarily to Angels - the "Army of heaven".

But as Rev 19 and 20 show us "The First resurrection" happens AFTER this event!! (See Rev 20:4-5)

In Matt 27 we do see a large number of OT saints raised - and certainly they will be coming with Christ.

Rev 14
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy ones AND in the presence of the Lamb.
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It is interesting that the word for saints in Jude 14-15 is also used in Rev 14:10 as WE WILL observe the wicked suffering "in our presence" for they suffer "in the presence of the Lamb AND of His Holy Ones".

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Dec 25, 2005

They could be the saints raised in Matt 27 but are more likely the "Armies of heaven" as noted in REv 19 and in 2Thess1 - the Angels.

However it is reasonable to assume that the saints of Matt 27 would be there!

So when we see this same group again in Rev 14:10 we know for certain the saints will be there to see and witness judgment upon their own precious loved ones. "IN the presence of the lamb AND of His Hagios -- saints".

In Christ,

Bob

Me4Him · Dec 25, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
They could be the saints raised in Matt 27 but are more likely the "Armies of heaven" as noted in REv 19 and in 2Thess1 - the Angels.

However it is reasonable to assume that the saints of Matt 27 would be there!

So when we see this same group again in Rev 14:10 we know for certain the saints will be there to see and witness judgment upon their own precious loved ones. "IN the presence of the lamb AND of His Hagios -- saints".

In Christ,

Bob
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Jesus and "Michael" does the "Fighting" at Jesus's return, but "ALL Resurrected" come with him.

Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Da 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

BobRyan · Dec 29, 2005

Indeed "Michael fights" - Rev 12 "Michael and HIS ANGELS fought against the dragan and his angels"

Me4Him · Dec 31, 2005

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Indeed "Michael fights" - Rev 12 "Michael and HIS ANGELS fought against the dragan and his angels"
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Michael fights to "cast Satan/Angels out of heaven",

Then fights to "cast Angels into Hell" when Jesus returns, Jesus Binds up Satan himself.

Re 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Re 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

BobRyan · Dec 31, 2005

To "whom" do the Angels belong? To whom do they hold allegiance? God?

The devil's angels hold allegience to "him" instead.

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