1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

The Curse of Galatians 3:10-14 and Penal Substitution

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Martin Marprelate, Mar 16, 2018.

  1. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2010
    Messages:
    8,909
    Likes Received:
    2,128
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The thread on P.S. and 1 John was closed by @JonC whilst I was typing. Here is my reply:
    The definition that I have used through several threads on this board and quoted at least five times (though not yet on this thread) is:

    'The doctrine of Penal Substitution states that God gave Himself in the Person of His Son to suffer instead of us the death, punishment and curse due to fallen humanity as the penalty for sin.' [Taken from 'Pierced for our Transgressions: Redicovering the Glory of Penal Substitution by Jeffrey, Ovey and Sach (IVP. 2007)]

    It will be seen immediately that @JonC's definition falls short in that it makes no mention of the 'curse,' whether upon the world in Genesis 3:17ff, upon sinners in Deuteronomy 28:27 or upon those who hang on a tree in Deuteronomy 21:23. Christ became a curse for us (Galatians 3:13) thereby redeeming us from the curse of God's law. The curse is the outworking of God's wrath or righteous anger against sin and sinners (Psalm 7:11). Christ was made sin for us (2 Cor. 5:21), had all our sins laid upon Him (Isaiah 53:6) and thereby endured God's wrath, not against Him as Christ, but as Him made sin for us (Romans 1:18; 3:25-26).

    The question of the Christ taking upon Himself the curse upon Mankind because of sin is the way that various of the ECFs such as Justin Martyr, Eusebius of Caesarea and Hilary of Poitiers explained Penal Substitution.

    But congratulations, @JonC! You have got through yet another thread without interacting with any Scripture. I'm sure you will manage just as well with this one.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Galatians 3:1-18 You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified? This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh? Did you suffer so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? So then, does He who provides you with the Spirit and works miracles among you, do it by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith? Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM." Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH." However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, "HE WHO PRACTICES THEM SHALL LIVE BY THEM." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

    The curse of Galatians 3 is the curse that mankind suffered under (10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM.") This curse is death, for the wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. It is appointed to man once to die and then the Judgment. And Christ became a curse for us (Christ lay down His own life as a “guilt offering”). He shared in our infirmity, our “flesh”, and our death.

    But note – NOWHERE in Galatians does Paul tell us that God cursed Jesus by pouring out His wrath upon His Son as the punishment due our sins. It is not Scripture that makes heresy false, but what is done to that Scripture.

    Genesis 3:17-19 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat from it'; Cursed is the ground because of you; In toil you will eat of it All the days of your life. Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you; And you will eat the plants of the field; By the sweat of your face You will eat bread, Till you return to the ground, Because from it you were taken; For you are dust, And to dust you shall return."

    What is cursed in Genesis 3 is the ground. This verse does not support the interpretation that God poured His wrath upon Christ. It shows, perhaps, that being a man Christ submitted to death.

    Deuteronomy 28:27 "The LORD will smite you with the boils of Egypt and with tumors and with the scab and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed.

    This was the consequence for Israel should they disobey the Covenant given in the Mosaic Law. This does not prove that God was wrathful towards Christ.

    Deuteronomy 21:22-23 "If a man has committed a sin worthy of death and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.

    This verse is descriptive of hanging being a punishment for those who are considered accursed of God. The Jews considered Christ to have committed a sin worthy of death, worthy of hanging on a tree. And they crucified Him. But this verse in no way proves that God poured out His wrath on Christ, or that God cursed Christ.

    Psalm 7:6-13 Arise, O LORD, in Your anger; Lift up Yourself against the rage of my adversaries, And arouse Yourself for me; You have appointed judgment. Let the assembly of the peoples encompass You, And over them return on high. The LORD judges the peoples; Vindicate me, O LORD, according to my righteousness and my integrity that is in me. O let the evil of the wicked come to an end, but establish the righteous; For the righteous God tries the hearts and minds. My shield is with God, Who saves the upright in heart. God is a righteous judge, And a God who has indignation every day. If a man does not repent, He will sharpen His sword; He has bent His bow and made it ready. He has also prepared for Himself deadly weapons; He makes His arrows fiery shafts.

    Here you extract a part of a verse (“God is a righteous judge”) to apply it to your theory that God therefore punished Christ. But the Psalm itself denies the Theory of Penal Substitution. God vindicates the righteous and God punishes the unrepentant.

    Isaiah 53:4-11 Surely our griefs He Himself bore, And our sorrows He carried; Yet we ourselves esteemed Him stricken, Smitten of God, and afflicted. But He was pierced through for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; The chastening for our well-being fell upon Him, And by His scourging we are healed. All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him. He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth; Like a lamb that is led to slaughter, And like a sheep that is silent before its shearers, So He did not open His mouth. By oppression and judgment He was taken away; And as for His generation, who considered That He was cut off out of the land of the living For the transgression of my people, to whom the stroke was due? His grave was assigned with wicked men, Yet He was with a rich man in His death, Because He had done no violence, Nor was there any deceit in His mouth. But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand. As a result of the anguish of His soul, He will see it and be satisfied; By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities.

    The passage here does not teach that God punished Jesus with our punishment, that God poured His wrath upon His Son. In fact, it teaches the opposite – that while this was God’s will it was the judgement of men that condemned Christ and God vindicated Him.

    Romans 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.


    Scripture does not present Christ as being ungodly and unrighteous, suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. Again, this passage does not teach that God was wrathful to Christ.

    Romans 3:21-26 But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed; for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.


    This passage speaks of justification by faith in Jesus Christ (the justification of the believer) which is now available as a righteousness of God apart from the Law. God passed over the sins previously committed for the demonstration of His righteousness in Christ – He is both just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Christ. It is appointed to man once to die and then the Judgment. The “second death” is the pronouncement of condemnation at the Judgment. Jesus does not deliver us from the consequences of sin (which is death) but gives us life. Our hope is not in never dying physically but that we will live in Him.

    This passage also does not teach that God was wrathful to Christ.

    Insofar as the Early Church Father’s, they affirmed the biblical doctrine of penal substitution (they believed Scripture) but NONE of them held to the Penal Substitution Theory of Atonement (none viewed God as pouring out His wrath upon Christ and punishing Him with the punishment for our sins).[/QUOTE]
     
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Congratulations JonC!

    Martin, who has laid a claim that you do not interact with Scriptures (though the evidence would not support the claim) can no longer make such a claim.

    Do not we all sometime wonder off into exuberance and post in excess?

    I certainly do, more than you or Martin!
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I hated posting such a long post, but also didn't want to leave unaddressed the numerous verses. Scripture itself does not support Penal Substitution Theory but this is often masked by asserting otherwise and mentioning as many passages as possible that speak of Christ bearing our sin. I just thought I'd lay that charge behind us so perhaps we could dive into a few passages. I'm still waiting on one that evidences God as being wrathful towards Christ.
     
  5. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 14, 2001
    Messages:
    26,977
    Likes Received:
    2,537
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Hmm, would there be a KJVO group before Wescott and Hort's 1881 RV?
     
  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    he continues to deny that God has a true wrath being directed against sins/sinners!
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God was wrathful towards Jesus as the SIN BEARER , as Its is not the Father just deciding to slam Jesus for spite, but He treated and dealt with Jesus just as he will with all who are lost sinners, as Jesus experienced "hell" while upon that Cross, as was temp forsaken of God.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is not true. I am denying that God has a true wrath directed at Jesus. Please try to be a little more accurate when referencing the words of others.

    Thanks.
     
  9. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    To which passage are you referring?
     
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Do you see that God has wrath directed towards sin/sinners period?
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. [21] He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

    This passage is speaking of our ambassadorship in Christ, God appealing through us to be reconciled to Him. God made Jesus sin on our behalf so that we may become the righteousness of God in Him.

    This is clearly penal substitution, but not Penal Substitution Theory. The verse does not speak of God pouring His wrath on Christ or Jesus experiencing 3 hours of hell.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Every Christian sees God's wrath as being directed towards sinners.

    But we are not talking about my theory. We are talking about yours.

    Would you agree at least that God pouring His wrath upon Christ, that Christ suffering Hell, and Christ bearing God's wrath is not in Scripture itself but an interpretation or theory systematically derived from what is in Scripture?
     
  14. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2011
    Messages:
    11,023
    Likes Received:
    1,108
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Nope,

    I don't think that it is "systematically derived from what is in Scripture" at all.

    Rather, I see the thinking of the PSA Theory in this matter of God pouring out His wrath upon the Son as an aberration that is added to the suffering of Christ in order to assuage humankind responsibility and reassign it as God's wrath and therefore God is to blame.

    In the Scriptures it is not God's wrath that Christ endured, but the natural enjoyments of the ungodly released upon Christ as God withdrew protection, just as Peter stated as recorded in the Acts 2:
    22“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.​

    There is not any foundation for assigning God as filled with wrath and taking vengeance out upon the Son. It is in fact a complete fabrication an aberration of no Scriptural foundation.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are right.
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, for Jesus Himself suffered in his own Body the very punishment due to us, so judgement for sins, forsaken by God, and enduring wrath!
     
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    God the Father ordained that Jesus would taste death, would suffer His own divine wrath towards sinners and their sins, and God used the sinners around Jesus to have that accomplished!
    God Himself nailed His own Son upon that Cross...
     
  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Scripture does say that Jesus suffered, and that He was made in the likeness of sinful flesh (He who knew no sin became sin for us), and that our chastisement fell upon Him, and He shared in our infirmity, and by His stripes we are healed.

    But Scripture does not say that Jesus suffered in his own body the very punishment due to us, so judgment for sins, forsaken by God, and enduring wrath. I'm sure if the Bible did say any of those things you would have provided a verse by now (if not you, @Martin Marprelate or @The Archangel would have by now).

    My point is that you take what Scripture actually says and then you add to it ("suffering in his own body the very punishment due to us"; "enduring wrath"; etc). What I am arguing against is not Scripture but those things that you add to it (those things that you can't provide a passage to confirm).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus was born in pefect humanity, as sinless nature, all others after Adam born with a sin nature, so you err there, God Himself killed Jesus on that Cross as our substitute, using sinners to have that accomplished, and there is indeed a divine wrath towards sin, so you understanding seems more of a theory than mine!
     
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This is tradition and not what the Bible actually teaches (as evidenced by no passages of Scripture that teach what you imagine here).
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
Loading...