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Does the Text of 1 John Demand Penal Substitution Theory ? 2

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Darrell C, Mar 16, 2018.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree with you to a large extent.

    Where I may disagree (please correct me if I have misunderstood your position) is that I do not believe that we are "spiritually dead" in the sense that we were, or Adam was, spiritually alive and then died.

    I do not believe that Jesus suffered "spiritual death" in our place, but rather that He suffered death (physical death) as our representative. The reason I say that this is not Penal Substitution Theory is that we do die physically. I view the "spiritual death" to be that "second death", which is Christ-centered and based on His work (the Father giving all judgment to the Son).
     
    #61 JonC, Mar 17, 2018
  2. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    In the case of the elect, by virtue of their saving Union with Christ their mediator and surety all their sins in particular are fully accounted for and punished in His person....all of the elements of a full atonement are executed for us that is how all is necessary for propitiation to occur.
    This is how I understood Archangels comment....it is all related.

    The unsaved have none of this, certainly the wrath has not been propitiated as they will discover at the White Throne judgment.
     
    #62 Iconoclast, Mar 17, 2018
  3. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    I have enjoyed and do enjoy Archangels posts and find them quite helpful.
    I have given support for his statement as I think I understand the larger issue he was addressing. I have and will continue to use such statements as they are interrelated.... There is a reason propitiation occurs...something causes God's wrath to not fall upon the elect.
     
    #63 Iconoclast, Mar 17, 2018
  4. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Excuse me. I base truth on what the Bible says. Psalm 71:11 is in the Bible. But if you prefer, you can have 1 Samuel 31:7. 'They forsook their cities and fled.' They didn't withdraw support for their cities. Azab is translated 'forsake' 123 times in the KJV, and 'leave' 67 times. It is never translated 'withdraw support.'

    The Bible says, "My God, My God! Why have You forsaken Me?" Not "My God, My God, thank you for not forsaking Me." If you and @agedman can't accept that, I'm not sure where we go from here.
     
    #64 Martin Marprelate, Mar 17, 2018
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  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I enjoyed @The Archangel 's posts up to a point. You and I disagree theologically, and I enjoy our conversations (and arguments). But you try to be faithful to what is written in Scripture. You can, for example, explain why you believe that Christ propitiated God's wrath by bearing it. But I do not believe that you would go so far as to alter what Scripture actually states (I do not believe you would have said that 1 John demands "propitiation" be defined as "wrath bearing").

    Christians can disagree theologically, and I can certainly deal with that. But we have to take care with God's Word (with the actual text). For example, in terms of the qualifications I believe Paul was telling Timothy a deacon could not be a bigamist. But the text itself does not demand that interpretation. I'll defend it, but I know the difference between my interpretation and the actual text of Scripture. I would argue my point, but I would not alter God's Word. I suspect you agree.
     
    #65 JonC, Mar 17, 2018
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  6. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Exactly, as Jesus suffered all that the lost sinner will for all etrnity, its just that he endured it for the time while upon the Cross!
     
    #66 Yeshua1, Mar 17, 2018
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Some are straining here in a mighty fashion to try to get the wrath of God towards sin eliminated!
     
    #67 Yeshua1, Mar 17, 2018
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  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus did not go to hell to suffer, as that is the Wof teaching, but he did experience hell while upon the Cross!
     
    #68 Yeshua1, Mar 17, 2018
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    To them Jesus was not really forsaken, did not suffer divine wrath, so of course they will reject the scripture on Pst!
     
    #69 Yeshua1, Mar 17, 2018
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not in this instance, you are taking what the wicked say and assuming it is truth:

    David didn't see God as forsaking him:


    Psalm 71:11-12
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 Saying, God hath forsaken him: persecute and take him; for there is none to deliver him.

    12 O God, be not far from me: O my God, make haste for my help.


    In fact the entire Psalm speaks of the exact opposite of what the wicked state, lol.


    So is...

    Psalm 14:1
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.


    So I will restate my advice, its not a good idea to base truth on what the wicked and fools say.

    ;)


    I fail to see the relevance.

    Again, just because the wicked state David is forsaken doesn't mean he was.


    Nehemiah 9:30-32
    King James Version (KJV)

    30 Yet many years didst thou forbear them, and testifiedst against them by thy spirit in thy prophets: yet would they not give ear: therefore gavest thou them into the hand of the people of the lands.

    31 Nevertheless for thy great mercies' sake thou didst not utterly consume them, nor forsake them; for thou art a gracious and merciful God.

    32 Now therefore, our God, the great, the mighty, and the terrible God, who keepest covenant and mercy, let not all the trouble seem little before thee, that hath come upon us, on our kings, on our princes, and on our priests, and on our prophets, and on our fathers, and on all thy people, since the time of the kings of Assyria unto this day.


    1 Samuel 16:13
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.



    Psalm 9:9-11
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 The Lord also will be a refuge for the oppressed, a refuge in times of trouble.

    10 And they that know thy name will put their trust in thee: for thou, Lord, hast not forsaken them that seek thee.


    Psalm 37:25
    King James Version (KJV)

    25 I have been young, and now am old; yet have I not seen the righteous forsaken, nor his seed begging bread.


    Psalm 37:28
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.


    One more for now:


    Psalm 38:16-22
    King James Version (KJV)

    16 For I said, Hear me, lest otherwise they should rejoice over me: when my foot slippeth, they magnify themselves against me.

    17 For I am ready to halt, and my sorrow is continually before me.

    18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.

    19 But mine enemies are lively, and they are strong: and they that hate me wrongfully are multiplied.

    20 They also that render evil for good are mine adversaries; because I follow the thing that good is.

    21 Forsake me not, O Lord: O my God, be not far from me.

    22 Make haste to help me, O Lord my salvation.


    David seems pretty confident in God.

    Shouldn't we be as well?


    Well, where you would go is back to the posts that show that David was not forsaken in Psalm 22.

    Or, I guess I could just show you again:


    Psalm 31
    King James Version (KJV)

    1 In thee, O Lord, do I put my trust; let me never be ashamed: deliver me in thy righteousness.

    2 Bow down thine ear to me; deliver me speedily: be thou my strong rock, for an house of defence to save me.

    3 For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.

    4 Pull me out of the net that they have laid privily for me: for thou art my strength.

    5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O Lord God of truth.


    Psalm 31:22
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 For I said in my haste, I am cut off from before thine eyes: nevertheless thou heardest the voice of my supplications when I cried unto thee.


    Psalm 22:23-25
    King James Version (KJV)

    23 Ye that fear the Lord, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel.

    24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him; but when he cried unto him, he heard.

    25 My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before them that fear him.


    John 16:32
    King James Version (KJV)

    32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


    When Christ quotes David, those who knew that David was not forsaken would have known the Lord was not forsaken either.


    God bless.
     
    #70 Darrell C, Mar 17, 2018
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Actually He didn't.

    That is the focus of the entire debate.

    Hell is Hell, and Christ did not go there, did not experience, it, and was at no time separated from the Father.

    That is according to Christ Himself:

    John 16:32
    King James Version (KJV)

    32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


    God bless.
     
    #71 Darrell C, Mar 17, 2018
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He was forsaken by God for awhile, as he who knew no sin became sin for us!
     
    #72 Yeshua1, Mar 17, 2018
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Where's the fun in that?

    ;)


    I do teach the first...we are spiritually dead. Having a spirit is not the same as being alive spiritually. Animals have spirits, but they are not "spiritual" nor can be.

    The second I do not teach, that Adam was spiritually alive then dead.

    I think I have mentioned before that being immersed into eternal union with God never took place prior to Pentecost. That is how we have "life," as contrasted with the "fathers" in John 6, which would have included Moses, who received manna but were...dead. We know Christ is not teaching that men will never perish physically, hence the life in view is distinct from the life men do have, which is physical.

    I do believe Adam was in communion with God, hence we would assume that the Old Testament ministry of God in filling men was likely, so we would not see Adam as bereft of a spiritual relationship with God in that sense. He also had access to the Tree of Life, so he had advantages his offspring did not.

    So when we are immersed into God, baptized with the Holy Ghost, we receive life based on the fact that He Who is Eternal Life now indwells us. Prior to our conversion...we were spiritually dead. Dead to God, dead to righteousness, and dead to the spiritual things of God.


    Nor do I.


    I don't see "representative" as representative of His vicarious death in our stead. Moses was a representative, Christ was God dying in the stead of the sinner.


    Genesis 22:8
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.



    This is true, so we must view the death sinners are faced with as something other than physical death. That does not change the fact that animals died vicariously, and neither did they go to Hell.


    Agreed, the Second Death is the spiritual death the lost are headed for.

    Technically that judgment was created for Satan and his demons. It is suitable that those among men who reject the will of God go there too.


    God bless.
     
    #73 Darrell C, Mar 17, 2018
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    He was no more forsaken than David was.

    John 16:32
    King James Version (KJV)

    32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


    Now, what Scripture would you present to teach that Christ was forsaken?


    God bless.
     
    #74 Darrell C, Mar 17, 2018
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    That would be a difference. I don't see Christ dying in our stead but that we may live (as a federal head along the lines of Adam).

    I'd say rather than delivering us from physical death He delivers us through it (dying to the flesh, being made alive in Him with the hope firmly in being made bodily anew).
     
    #75 JonC, Mar 17, 2018
  16. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    Nor did David have his hands and feet pierced and his clothes divided up by lot.
    The Psalm is not about David; it is about Christ. Just because David wrote it doesn't mean that he is the subject. Have a read of 1 Peter 1:10-12 which explains this.

    The Lord Jesus cries out, "My God, My God! Why have You forsaken Me?" I think I'll believe Him rather than doubt His word. But note that these words were spoken at the ninth hour ( Mark 15:33-34). God heard His cry (Psalm 22:21-24) and the darkness was lifted, and communion between father and Son restored. that is why our Lord declared, "It is finished!" It was. And He could commend His spirit to the Father and dismiss it (Luke 23:46; John 19:30).
     
    #76 Martin Marprelate, Mar 17, 2018
  17. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    You should mention, at the least, that there is a significant amount of scholarship and scholars that share my position and describe it in exactly the same way I do. Even for you, that is undeniable.

    You are completely ignoring the role of Biblical Theology in the understanding of scripture. Words, such as ἱλασμός do not exist or get used in a vacuum. How an author uses a word along with how other authors use the same word gives as much or more insight to meaning than a lexical definition. While you cannot have "Black" meaning "White" you can have a nuanced meaning in the scope of the semantic domain. With your credentials, you should know this.

    The Archangel
     
    #77 The Archangel, Mar 17, 2018
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  18. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    In point of fact, the "hypostatic union" refers to Christ as the God-Man, not to the members of the Trinity and how they might be "joined" to one another.

    The Archangel
     
    #78 The Archangel, Mar 17, 2018
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  19. The Archangel

    The Archangel Well-Known Member

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    Be careful. You're coming dangerously close to saying that I do not try to be faithful to what is written in Scripture. If you are making that claim, it would be slanderous (actually, libelous, since it is in print). Be careful.

    The Archangel.
     
    #79 The Archangel, Mar 17, 2018
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  20. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    I return to clarify.

    From the point of the incarnation, the trinity forever includes the hypostatically union of God and man in The Christ.

    But, surely you know this.
     
    #80 agedman, Mar 17, 2018
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