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Does God have a Mother?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Eliyahu, Dec 11, 2005.

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  1. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

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    I'm not writing it off as such. I'm bringing attention to the fact that Romaphibic views exist in Baptist closets, and we need not fear something just because "the Catholics do it". I can't even say "I like stained glass windows" without someone pointing out how "Catholic" it is. Even in your post, you eschewed romaphobia, but then pointed to something
    they" do for comparison.
     
    #161 Johnv, Dec 14, 2005
  2. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Natters,
    I think I forgot to start with one point when I mention about Natters idea.

    Do you think Jesus humanity is divine?
    Then what about vice-versa? Is Jesus divinity not human?

    Another question is about Genesis 32:28-30.
    The Angel wrestled with Jacob, then did Jacob wrestle with Angel just in the dream?

    Abraham prepared food, Butter and Milk for Jehova and His angels in Genesis 18. Then they ate them, was it in the dream only? or did they have any flesh to eat the meal?

    Please answer!
     
    #162 Eliyahu, Dec 14, 2005
  3. natters

    natters New Member

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    Absolutely. The Word was God, and the Word was made flesh.

    Not before the Word was made flesh.

    These were not just dreams. However, these appearances were not in human flesh, for the Word was made flesh at the incarnation.

    I always do. Yet you are not answering my questions and comments.
     
    #163 natters, Dec 14, 2005
  4. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Whether one is Orthodox is or not can be judged by God and His Words. In my view, Majority
    condemned Nestorius but Nestorius was the real Orthodox and those guys who condemned him were heretic!
    The most of the Orthodox persecuted true Christians throughout the ages, and they are cult and heretic! They are running on the wide and the broadway leading to the destruction, murdering the true believers who are walking thru the narrow gate, condemning the true believers as heretic! Watch out! God is the final Judge! Read Mt 7:13-23
     
    #164 Eliyahu, Dec 14, 2005
  5. natters

    natters New Member

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    Does that mean you're not going to respond to my questions and comments?
     
    #165 natters, Dec 14, 2005
  6. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Natters,
    Then you mean the nature of Jesus divine only before the conception. Then do you admit that the nature of Jesus before conception is different from that of Jesus after conception?

    If the difference exist between 2 times, again can we not summarize this way?
    Before Conception, 100% divine only
    After Conception, 100% divine + 100% human

    How can you explain Word became Flesh in the above process? Was the divine nature itself expanded into human nature?


    You are separating the nature of Jesus again because you say Jesus had no humanity before and then he acquired it after the conception, then you already divided his nature into 2, as Nestorius you are condemning did.
     
    #166 Eliyahu, Dec 14, 2005
  7. natters

    natters New Member

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    I have already answered these questions, several times. Your turn to answer some of mine.
     
    #167 natters, Dec 14, 2005
  8. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I am answering you one by one! they are complicated and I need your confirmation about the points before I answer you!
     
    #168 Eliyahu, Dec 14, 2005
  9. natters

    natters New Member

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    Nature as in his body, yes.

    Yes, that is a summary of what I believe.

    I can't explain it, I simply accept it and believe it.

    I don't know if "expanded" is exactly the right word. The "Word was made flesh" is good enough for me.

    The difference is small but hugely important. I say the flesh is God. Nestorianism (what Nestorius himself actually believed is beside the point) says Jesus existed as two persons, the man Jesus and the divine Son of God, rather than as a unified person - that the divine dwelt in the flesh, but the flesh itself was not divine.

    Your turn yet?
     
    #169 natters, Dec 14, 2005
  10. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    My point is that you are separating the nature of Jesus into two, if you say that Jesus was divine only before the conception and then become divine and human after conception. You never answered this.

    Also, have you answered how Word become flesh if you believe He was divine only before Conception?
    Please reiterate it if you have already answered, as I don't find the answer yet!

    How is the contribution by Mary if the WORD itself became flesh?
     
    #170 Eliyahu, Dec 14, 2005
  11. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Whether Nestorius mentioned 2 personalities or 2 persons is not clear. You are judging the person who is absent now, based on the information claimed by his opponents. I don't think he insisted that 2 persons lived inside one body as he was not that stupid.
    2 personalities (divinity and humanity) lived in one person in unity is not very wrong, even though I think it is just a human understanding
     
    #171 Eliyahu, Dec 14, 2005
  12. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    You cannot say Jesus had divinity only while he had both divinity and humanity in unity later, without splitting the concepts of the nature of Jesus into two.
     
    #172 Eliyahu, Dec 14, 2005
  13. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    How do you think Jesus acquired the humanity?
    What was the role of Mary in that process?
     
    #173 Eliyahu, Dec 14, 2005
  14. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Natters, you agreed that Before the conception, Jesus had only divinity. Then the divinity existed before Mary and Mary is not Mother for that part, right? Nevertheless do you want to call Mary as Mother of God ?


    Only the post-conception part is credited to Mary, which means humanity.
     
    #174 Eliyahu, Dec 14, 2005
  15. Bunyon

    Bunyon New Member

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    Matt-"Then I'm afraid your opinion is heretical"

    I am afraid that you folks who want to press a weak syllogism based on limited definitions that are not agreed upon for no useful purpose are hurting the cause of Christ. I mean here are folks who have told you repeatedly they believe Christ is fully Divine, and yet you want to label them heretics because they don't agree with your syllogism. I mean you would call someone a heretic based on what they said about a confusing and unnecessary syllogism. That is very unfortunate.

    How some one conceptualizes a mysterious thing like the incarnation, which is not explained in scripture, should not be the basis for throwing around labels like heretic. And I think your side's insistence on doing so shows the true spirit of what you are doing, as it was in Ephesus. It was and is the spirit of strife and division.
     
    #175 Bunyon, Dec 14, 2005
  16. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Natters, I think you are right in :

    I can't explain it, I simply accept it and believe it (about how Word became flesh)

    me too! We can think about several scenario or methods of understanding but they may not be accurate. One idea was about the expansion which I mentioned.


    In that case what is the role of Mary?
    Mt 1:20 says The One in her is begotten by Holy Spirit.
     
    #176 Eliyahu, Dec 14, 2005
  17. natters

    natters New Member

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    You have never explained how this is "separating". It is simply recognizing a distinction.

    The Word became flesh by his conception.

    He was conceived in Mary. He is biologically (not just surrogately) connected to her, or else he would not be of the line of David, not "made of the seed of David according to the flesh", not "of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh". If Mary made no biological contribution, several scriptures are in error, and Jesus is ultimately a false Messiah.

    I am not commenting on Nestorius. I am commenting on Nestorianism.

    But the humanity is God. The Word was made flesh. Do you believe Mary was his "mother", in terms of his humanity?

    If you don't start answering questions as well, I will be dropping out of this conversation.
     
    #177 natters, Dec 14, 2005
  18. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    I think Bunyon is very right in pointing out the Abuse of Word Heretic! I am not afraid about being called heretic, but the people who abuse such words are mostly heretic themselves! full of heretic ideas like goddess worship, justifying idol worship, no salvation outside their group etc.
    Discern based on Words of God.
     
    #178 Eliyahu, Dec 14, 2005
  19. natters

    natters New Member

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    But how did the Word become flesh in your view, if you believe the Word was flesh from eternity? How can the Word "become" something he already was?
     
    #179 natters, Dec 14, 2005
  20. Eliyahu

    Eliyahu Active Member
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    Natters, sorry for any omission in answering because we are moving around many parts of the subject.

    I think you are contradictory by saying this:

    "He was conceived in Mary. He is biologically (not just surrogately) connected to her"

    Because you believe that Word became Flesh, but now you are saying flesh became flesh as you believe Mary's ovum became flesh
     
    #180 Eliyahu, Dec 14, 2005
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