"Old nature vs. New"

That's fine Tim, but the testimony of your friend has to come after the testimony of the Word of God.

I simply can't accept all the changes of the present tenses in Romans 7 to the past by attributing it to this elusive and IMO flimsy "rhetorical 'I'".

Neither can I accept some kind of "inner/inward man" of the unregenerate which "delights" in the Law of God whether Jewish, Japanese or whoever.

The Scripture delares that the law brings the knowledge of sin, conviction (reproval), a curse for the breaking of even one point, it works the wrath of God (Rom 4:15) and was a yoke around the necks of the Hebrew fathers (Acts 15).

Could I be wrong, I suppose, but as of yet I'm not convinced.

HankD

[ October 22, 2005, 11:25 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]

canadyjd wrote,

You appear to conclude that we might loose our salvation if we choose to return to sin. If so, I strongly disagree. Perhaps I misread you though.

Click to expand...

The doctrine of apostasy in not introduced till chapter nine. The doctrine of apostasy on the part of those who have been saved is not introduced until chapter eleven,

Rom. 11:19. You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21. for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

HankD wrote,

That's fine Tim, but the testimony of your friend has to come after the testimony of the Word of God.

Click to expand...

And indeed it has.

If one interprets Romans 7 in the manner that HankD does, that requires that he believes that someone sold Paul into bondage to sin (v. 14). That, of course, is an absolute impossibility. But, just for the sake of argument, let’s suppose that someone did sell Paul into bondage to sin. That would necessarily mean that he was no longer saved at the time that he wrote his Epistle to the Romans, giving us a book in the New Testament that was written by an unsaved man. Personally, I cannot even begin to imagine a more absurd understanding of the Epistle to the Romans, especially by someone who believes in the doctrine of eternal security.

Anyone who has personally known devout Jews knows for a fact that devout Jews delight in the Law of God. Anyone who knows the Apostle Paul knows that he could not possibly delight in the power of sin (1 Cor. 15:56). Anyone who is familiar with the writings of other peoples of other cultures knows that the concept of the inner man is common to all of them. Anyone who carefully follows Paul's argument for the need of justification by faith can easily see that the “I” of Romans 7 is rhetorical.

As the Bible scholar and linguist Adam Clarke commented some years ago,

It is difficult to conceive how the opinion could have crept into the Church, or prevailed there, that “the apostle speaks here of his regenerate state; and that what was, in such a state, true of himself, must be true of all others in the same state.” This opinion has, most pitifully and most shamefully, not only lowered the standard of Christianity, but destroyed its influence and disgraced its character. It requires but little knowledge of the spirit of the Gospel, and of the scope of this epistle, to see that the apostle is, here, either personating a Jew under the law and without the Gospel, or showing what his own state was when he was deeply convinced that by the deeds of the law no man could be justified, and had not as yet heard those blessed words: Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way, hath sent me that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, Act_9:17.

Click to expand...

Redeemed
Fanny J. Crosby, 1820-1915
William J. Kirkpatrick, 1838-1921

Redeemed how I love to proclaim it! Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb;
Redeemed thro' His infinite mercy, His child, and forever, I am.
Redeemed (redeemed), redeemed (redeemed), Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb;
Redeemed (redeemed), redeemed (redeemed), His child, and forever I am.

Redeemed and so happy in Jesus, No language my rapture can tell;
I know that the light of His presence with me doth continually dwell.
Redeemed (redeemed), redeemed (redeemed), Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb;
Redeemed (redeemed), redeemed (redeemed), His child, and forever I am.

I think of my blessed Redeemer, I think of Him all the day long;
I sing, for I cannot be silent; His love is the theme of my song.
Redeemed (redeemed), redeemed (redeemed), Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb;
Redeemed (redeemed), redeemed (redeemed), His child, and forever I am.

I know I shall see in His beauty the King in Whose law I delight;
Who lovingly guardeth my footsteps and giveth me songs in the night.
Redeemed (redeemed), redeemed (redeemed), Redeemed by the blood of the Lamb;
Redeemed (redeemed), redeemed (redeemed), His child, and forever I am.

Craigbythesea

I think you have misread Chapter 11. It appears Paul is speaking in broad terms here, about National Israel and Gentiles in general. Just as Chapter 7 was rhetorical, so is the language of chapter 11.

v.19 represents a "profession of faith" by the rhetorical Gentile. Paul is telling the rhetorical Gentile that such a profession is not the proof of salvation, just as being a member of Israel was not proof of salvation.

Perseverence in the faith is the standard required by God. Just as Israel had those that were members who did not really believe, the Gentiles will have those who profess, but do not believe. They will be cut off because of unbelief.

Therefore Paul gives the warning to the Gentiles not to fall into the same kind of arrogance and unbelief that Israel did, God will cut them off as well.

True believers will persevere, but I am sure you know that argument.

canadyjd wrote,

Therefore Paul gives the warning to the Gentiles not to fall into the same kind of arrogance and unbelief that Israel did, God will cut them off as well.

Click to expand...

The Gentiles to whom Paul gives the warning are Christian members of the Church in Rome. The ONLY reason to suppose otherwise is to force this passage to conform to the doctrine of eternal security, a doctrine that did not exist until it evolved during the early days of the Reformation.

True believers will persevere, but I am sure you know that argument.

Click to expand...

Yes, I know that argument; I also know the history of the development of that argument during the reformation. It is neither an early historical doctrine nor a Biblical doctrine, but it is an outgrowth of very severely mistaken views of the sovereignty of God.

I do not wish to derail this thread, and I will not comment further in this thread on the doctrine of apostasy in the latter half of the Epistle to the Romans.

Craigbythesea

you said
_____
"The Gentiles to whom Paul gives the warning are Christian members of the Church in Rome...."
_____

They are "professing" members of the church. Paul is careful not to pronounce people "saved" or "unsaved", but readily tells professors that true salvation is evidenced by a changed life, and part of that is perseverence.

I can understand not wanting to hijack the thread, so let's not do it.

I do want to say that I was saved relatively late in life (in my 30's) and was basically unaware of many of the debates surrounding these issues. I have found that we all bring presuppositions to bible study. Setting those presuppositions aside and letting the text speak for itself, in the context of the culture in which it was written is very difficult.

peace to you

If one interprets Romans 7 in the manner that HankD does, that requires that he believes that someone sold Paul into bondage to sin (v. 14). That, of course, is an absolute impossibility.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily, Paul could be speaking of his flesh and the condition that he would be in if he identified with it.

18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Paul also exhorts us to mortify/crucify the flesh lest we die.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Most (if not all) of Paul's writings are out of his maturity and that we sometimes believe that perhaps he was spiritually born that way but Paul himself admits that he went through a maturing process.

1 Corinthians 13
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

I believe that in the Romans 7 passage he is describing that process at least in part.

Peter also warns us to abstain from the demands of the flesh:

1 Peter 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

In 1 John we have 3 categories of believers:

1 John 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.

The young men have "overcome" the wicked one, perhaps indicating this struggle.

Hebrews 12
3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

As for myself I can identify with Romans 7 and the struggle, though (and it might be old age) it is now almost something of the past.

Though everytime I start mulling with the idea that I might have arrived some new corruption is revealed or the old me starts moaning in the coffin and we have to deal with it or it's back to the woodshed. Personally, I know it won't end this side of heaven but it's my goal.

I also know that He will come for me if/when I wander out of the way, "for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee".

Thank you for the serenade, I thoroughly enjoyed it

HankD

HankD wrote,

Not necessarily, Paul could be speaking of his flesh and the condition that he would be in if he identified with it.

Click to expand...

If that is what Paul was speaking of, his use of the "I" is rhetorical. He wrote, "I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin." It absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for a blood-bought child of God to be sold into bondage to sin!

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
HankD wrote,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Not necessarily, Paul could be speaking of his flesh and the condition that he would be in if he identified with it.

Click to expand...

If that is what Paul was speaking of, his use of the "I" is rhetorical. He wrote, "I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin." It absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for a blood-bought child of God to be sold into bondage to sin!

</font>[/QUOTE]Did you sin any this weekend?

It absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for a blood-bought child of God to be sold into bondage to sin!

Click to expand...

It is not "rhetorical" but a very real possibility. If he identifies with the flesh then he comes back into that condition and has the death sentence (physical) hanging over him.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

We are to walk in the nature of this "new or inner" man.

Ephesians 3
16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

The "inner man" or "new man" or the one born of the Spirit cannot sin.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

1 John 3
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

If and when you leave off following the lead of the Spirit and identify with and behave according to the flesh expect a rebuke (As Peter - get thee behind me Satan) or chastening or even death (as those "servants" commiting fornication in the Thyratira church).

1 Corinthians 11
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

If we wander off into darkness then we sin.

1 John 1
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

If we wander from the flock He will come for us.

Matthew 18
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?

To this fact I am a living testimony.

HankD

Originally posted by Brother James:
Said the prince of preachers CH Spurgeon, "There are some professing Christians who can speak of themselves in terms of admiration; but, from my inmost heart, I loathe such speeches more and more every day that I live. Those who talk in such a boastful fashion must be constituted very differently from me. While they are congratulating themselves, I have to lie humbly at the foot of Christ's Cross, and marvel that I am saved at all, for I know that I am saved. I have to wonder that I do not believe Christ more, and equally wonder that I am privileged to believe in Him at all-to wonder that I do not love Him more, and equally to wonder that I love Him at all-to wonder that I am not holier, and equally to wonder that I have any desire to be holy at all considering what a polluted debased, depraved nature I find still within my soul, notwithstanding all that divine grace has done in me. If God were ever to allow the fountains of the great deeps of depravity to break up in the best man that lives, he would make as bad a devil as the devil himself is. I care nothing for what these boasters say concerning their own perfections; I feel sure that they do not know themselves, or they could not talk as they often do. There is tinder enough in the saint who is nearest to heaven to kindle another hell if God should but permit a spark to fall upon it. In the very best of men there is an infernal and well-nigh infinite depth of depravity. Some Christians never seem to find this out. I almost wish that they might not do so, for it is a painful discovery for anyone to make; but it has the beneficial effect of making us cease from trusting in ourselves, and causing us to glory only in the Lord."

Click to expand...

HankD wrote,

It is not "rhetorical" but a very real possibility. If he identifies with the flesh then he comes back into that condition and has the death sentence (physical) hanging over him.

Click to expand...

If Paul was NOT writing rhetorically in Rom. 7:14, he was saying that at the time he was writing he was "sold into bondage to sin." If that was the case, the Epistle to the Romans is not the word of God—but the words of a bondservant of the devil. But, of course, you have a right to your opinion.

"There are some professing Christians who can speak of themselves in terms of admiration; but, from my inmost heart, I loathe such speeches more and more every day that I live. Those who talk in such a boastful fashion must be constituted very differently from me. While they are congratulating themselves, I have to lie humbly at the foot of Christ's Cross, and marvel that I am saved at all, for I know that I am saved. I have to wonder that I do not believe Christ more, and equally wonder that I am privileged to believe in Him at all-to wonder that I do not love Him more, and equally to wonder that I love Him at all-to wonder that I am not holier, and equally to wonder that I have any desire to be holy at all considering what a polluted debased, depraved nature I find still within my soul, notwithstanding all that divine grace has done in me. If God were ever to allow the fountains of the great deeps of depravity to break up in the best man that lives, he would make as bad a devil as the devil himself is. I care nothing for what these boasters say concerning their own perfections; I feel sure that they do not know themselves, or they could not talk as they often do. There is tinder enough in the saint who is nearest to heaven to kindle another hell if God should but permit a spark to fall upon it. In the very best of men there is an infernal and well-nigh infinite depth of depravity. Some Christians never seem to find this out. I almost wish that they might not do so, for it is a painful discovery for anyone to make; but it has the beneficial effect of making us cease from trusting in ourselves, and causing us to glory only in the Lord."

Amen!

If Paul was NOT writing rhetorically in Rom. 7:14, he was saying that at the time he was writing he was "sold into bondage to sin." If that was the case, the Epistle to the Romans is not the word of God—but the words of a bondservant of the devil. But, of course, you have a right to your opinion.

Click to expand...

He is speaking of those times in which he had identified with the flesh perhaps as a babe in Christ. the possibilty still being there to fall.

If you want to give it the label of "rhetorical" or that he is speaking vicariously as a practicing pious Jew OK.

Personally it makes more sense to me to view him as speaking vicariously as a weak or "carnal" (babe) Christian who is yet struggling to overcome the bondage of sin which is/was his (as it was for me) intense desire. Not that I have attained or arrived at that state of perfection or maturity.

1 Corinthians 9:27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I believe the point of diminishing returns has been reached as we (I anyway) are repeating things.


HankD

HankD wrote,

I believe the point of diminishing returns has been reached as we (I anyway) are repeating things.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Thank you for your polite participation in this thread!

One more statement by J.C. Philpot shall I add brothers and sisters, I wish you all a good day:


"Who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Romans 7:24

If the Lord the Spirit has implanted that piteous cry in our soul, "O
wretched man that I am!" this will follow as a necessary consequence--"Who
shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Where shall I look for
deliverance? From what quarter can it come? Shall I look to the law? O no!
that curses and condemns me, because I am continually breaking it. Can I
look to friends? They may pity and sympathize; but they cannot remove the
body of sin and death; it is too fast-linked on for them to remove. Shall
I go to ministers of truth? I may hear what they say with approbation; but
there is something more needed to remove this chilling embrace of the body
of sin and death. Shall I look to the Scriptures? They contain the remedy;
but I need that remedy to be sweetly applied.

"Who then shall deliver me?" What refuge can I look to? Where can I go, or
where shall I turn? From what quarter can help or deliverance come? See
the bewilderment! view the perplexity of an exercised soul!--looking here,
and looking there; turning to the right hand and turning to the left. Yet
from one quarter only can the deliverance come. And thus, when the Apostle
was brought here--when he was sunk down to a low spot, and anxiously
turning his eyes to every quarter to see whence deliverance could
come--God blessed his soul with a view of his precious Son. God the Spirit
wrought in his heart that living faith whereby he saw Jesus, and whereby
there was a communication of the blood and love of the Lamb to his
conscience.

J.C. Philpot, as beautifully as he writes, is seriously mistaken in attributing the experience of the Jew in Romans 7:14-25 to Paul because, as has already been proven in this thread through the quoting of Scripture, Paul's experience as a Jew was VERY different from this. And most certainly, it is impossible for a Christian who knows the gospel and who has applied it to his life to experience such a thing.

As I have already posted, I have very carefully read several hundred studies of the seventh chapter of Romans, and one thing is very clear from these studies—those individuals who attribute the experience of Rom. 7:14-25 to Paul do so for the express reason that they see in that experience their own experience, either before or after regeneration, and they conclude that in order for Paul to so well depict that experience, he must have experienced it himself. This argument, of course, fundamentally denies the inspiration of the Holy Scriptures and reduces them to human psychology. Therefore, they are able to ignore the other Scriptures in the Bible that describe Paul’s life and experiences and make it expressly clear that he never experienced the experience of a devout Jew under the Law who loved the Law with all of his heart but found that he was not able to keep it but was in bondage to sin.

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
J.C. Philpot, as beautifully as he writes, is seriously mistaken in attributing the experience of the Jew in Romans 7:14-25 to Paul because, as has already been proven in this thread through the quoting of Scripture, Paul's experience as a Jew was VERY different from this. And most certainly, it is impossible for a Christian who knows the gospel and who has applied it to his life to experience such a thing.

As I have already posted, I have very carefully read several hundred studies of the seventh chapter of Romans, and one thing is very clear from these studies—those individuals who attribute the experience of Rom. 7:14-25 to Paul do so for the express reason that they see in that experience their own experience, either before or after regeneration, and they conclude that in order for Paul to so well depict that experience, he must have experienced it himself. This argument, of course, fundamentally denies the inspiration of the Holy Scriptures and reduces them to human psychology. Therefore, they are able to ignore the other Scriptures in the Bible that describe Paul’s life and experiences and make it expressly clear that he never experienced the experience of a devout Jew under the Law who loved the Law with all of his heart but found that he was not able to keep it but was in bondage to sin.

Click to expand...

Whatever craig. However your position is not the orthodox one.

Brother James wrote,

However your position is not the orthodox one.

Click to expand...

You could not possibly be more mistaken! Please investigate the facts before posting incorrect information.

No Craig, I think this thread has established beyond any doubt that you are a heretic on several issues that are of great importance. I'm through discussing any issue with you.
I bid you good day sir.