Celebrating Christmas is an Insult to Christ

Amen! It would be good if most Christian Churches followed the Christian Calendar and not the Secular Calendar.

BTW On this 3rd Day of Christmas... Happy St. John the Apostle Day everyone! John’s writings in the Gospel of John, and 1st, 2nd, 3rd John and Revelation all heavily emphasize the fact that Jesus is the Son of God and God manifested in the flesh. No wonder that we remember this Apostle and his writings in this season of celebrating the Incarnation.

 

No doubt about it: a lot of folks participate in a lot of "holy" days.

The question is: What concord has the temple of God with Belial?

Most of these pagan based celebrations are revelry of the flesh. We cannot glorify God in our flesh.

Now what?

God is Spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

Shepherds wouldn't be out in the fields with sheep in winter. Even over there it gets cold this time of year. And "the sixth month" could be the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy.

Luke 1:23-27 (NIV)
23When his time of service was completed, he returned home.
24After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion.
25"The Lord has done this for me," she said. "In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people."
26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary.

 

I am glad that someone is so sure about the birthdate of Jesus. We can't even determine wot year he was born. We know the general area, but not the actual year.

Debby is correct about the Shepherds, however. The sheep would be in pens out from the barn or house in December. They used to lamb in January to have lambs ready for the passover season.

We could always just forget the day and celebrate Father Christmas. We do know for sure he comes around December 25th.

Cheers,

Jim

 

In the Netherlands, Sinterklass (the Dutch Father Christmas) comes on December 6th, St Niclolas Day. Sinterklaas and Jesus' birth are observed on two separate days.

 

Hello Alexander. Luke gives us valuable information. Please read Luke again for it doesn’t say what you think it says. You will find upon study that the “sixth month” applies to how far along Elisabeth was, not the sixth month.

But first we need to understand our position in Christ. The point we must remember is not some day, or date Jesus was born, but that He was made flesh, and died for our sins. We worship our risen Lord Jesus Christ. God the Word knows when He became flesh, and surely would have told us the exact day He was born had He wished us to know. But He knows our sinful nature, and we can take what is Holy and join it with the unholy. He knows humans want their own input, and their own works with the days to prove how religious and how reverent they are to the world. We are to walk in faith, and not by sight.

We are not Jews like James who will show you his works, his blood sacrifices, and keeping of the law. I’m sure James will be in that “kingdom to come” as promised by God, but do you think he would dare institute any Holy Days not authorized by God? How about Peter, John, or any of the other earthly Apostles? The Apostle to the Gentile certainly would not go along with such nonsense. But people say we so wish to esteem one day over another? Paul says, "Well go ahead"(Romans 14:5-6), I’ll not judge you as to the day/s you consider Christ, as that is not my function.(Romans 14:10).

Luke 2:7-8 and 15 gives us the information we need to know that man is always wrong when they depart from the Word. Where were the shepherds? They were in Fields with their flocks the night that Jesus was born. That means the sheep were in the fields. Had it been December the manger would not have been available.

The rainy season in that area is between the latter parts of October until April. They did not leave their sheep out in the rainy cold weather in the hills, for they would have never been there to start with. The Shepard’s were in the fields with their flocks, so they didn’t corral them until beginning October 15, and then back out beginning April.

Can you image Caesar Augustus calling for taxation in the wintertime? Both Joseph and Mary were of the House of David, and Israel’s census and taxes were to be in Judah, for this was a Law for the Israelites. It probably took close to 10 or so days for this “poor” couple to travel from Nazareth to Bethlehem. Winter time? Sound ridiculous to anyone? We are to prove scripture – not make it up. Christian faith, ituttut

 

Understanding the nature of God. Christian faith, ituttut

 

Shepherds wouldn't be out in the fields with sheep in winter. Even over there it gets cold this time of year. And "the sixth month" could be the sixth month of Elizabeth's pregnancy.

Luke 1:23-27 (NIV)
23When his time of service was completed, he returned home.
24After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion.
25"The Lord has done this for me," she said. "In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people."
26In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee,
27to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin's name was Mary. </font>[/QUOTE]Debby in Philly, forgive me for mirroring you thoughts to Alexander. I had not gotten down to your excellent reply, correcting what so many seem to believe.

Luke 1:36 solidifies the sixth month pertains to Elisabeth. Christian faith, ituttut

Christian faith, ituttut

 

You are correct that John and Paul both praise God and not man. John’s writings however are of a different theme than Paul. Paul heavily emphasizes Justification by Faith in Christ in his writings while John heavily emphasizes Jesus is the Son of God and God manifested in the flesh. That is not to say they were in disagreement but God used them differently.

Neither one gives me any day to worship for I worship God alone.

uhhh…. what does that scripture have to do with the subject?

a Few Questions

1. Do you celebrate the 4th of July? If so why do you remember the founding Fathers of the USA and their accomplishments but not remember the Saints and their accomplishments? Even here in the SBC in December we remember Lottie Moon and her example she set for us,

2. Do you celebrate Veterans day. Memorial Day? If so why do you remember the Military veterans and their accomplishments but not remember the Saints and their accomplishments?

3. Should the Vietnam memorial and WW2 memorial be destroyed since using your logic they are idols that worship man?

4. Is Secretary’s Day idolatry? Since that is honoring woman and not God using your logic.

5. Do you oppose 911 ceremonies? since using your logic that is worshipping man.

Special Days if you don’t understand has nothing to do with worshipping man but remembering their examples be it the Memorial Day (Remembering the price paid for our Country's freedom) or St. Stephen’s Day (Remembering the price for following Christ can be martyrdom).

 

Debby in Philly: //Shepherds wouldn't be out in the fields with sheep in winter.
Even over there it gets cold this time of year.//

This statement has been disproven SEVEN times in the last seven
pages with DATA. Sorry, debating techniques don't allow you
to LOOK GOOD while making statements already refuted in detail.

Come on, GOd gave every sheep a FREE WOOL COAT.
Show me the numbers "over there it gets cold this time of year".
Did you know Bethlehem has the latitude
and climate of PALM SPRINGS California?
Both are 20-25 miles east of a large body of water and on the
west edge of a desert region.

Debby in Philly: //And "the sixth month" could be the sixth month
of Elizabeth's pregnancy.//

At least you got that part right

 

Ed Edwards,

Thank you for clarifying about what winter is like in Israel, and that sheep are ably equipped to deal with it. The winter in Israel would be mild enough that keeping sheep in the field would be very reasonable, and it is not even cold enough to make it unlikely that the shepherds would be out there with them. Beyond that, this speculation about what 'must' have happened is nothing more than making guesses based on ignorance AND on the need to disprove that our Lord was born in December.

Regarding whether or not 'the sixth month' refers to Mary's or Elizabeth's pregnancy is an interesting point. However, Scripture uses the phrase 'in the xxx month' or 'in the xx year of' to indicate how far into a year (in the former case) or how far into the reign of a particular king (in the latter case) something occurred. Although one could argue that in this ONE case 'in the 6th month' referred to the 6th month of Elizabeth's pregnancy, it would be the exception to how that phrase is used elsewhere. So, I think it unlikely.

And does anyone really think that the a Roman emperor cared EVEN a little bit about whether or not complying with a census order would inconvenience the peasants? The same emperors who routinely sacrifice thousands of humans in the Colisuem in the gladiatorial contests? I hardly think so!

Alexander.

 

It is not difficult to find a scripture to fit a pre-conceived notion. After that it is all human tradition and commandments of men.

The Word of God is not the author of confusion.

Humans are depraved. Now what?

Salvation is of the Lord.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

You are correct that John and Paul both praise God and not man. John’s writings however are of a different theme than Paul. Paul heavily emphasizes Justification by Faith in Christ in his writings while John heavily emphasizes Jesus is the Son of God and God manifested in the flesh. That is not to say they were in disagreement but God used them differently.

Amen for this is a reasonable approach. But I believe it is somewhat deeper, as scripture reveals. I offer my position in Christ here, and I do not doubt you also believe in the power of the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

God did use these two Apostles differently. His earthly Apostles were to go to the house of Israel with their message of John the Baptist of “repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins”, believing on the name of Jesus Christ. Things dramatically changed after the destruction of Jerusalem, and the Temple. Had Israel accepted Messiah then the Gentile would be preached to by those that God gave authority to. So until Damascus Road, and Peter sent by God to Cornelius, the gospel was to the Jew to come by faith, as all from the beginning had done, as shown in Hebrew 11, and all doing their works.

Paul’s message heavily emphasizes the Gentile is saved by the Grace of God through faith, with no work included. This is not known (spoken but not understood) until after Damascus Road. Such things were hidden – I Corinthians 2:6-8. Such things as this only became known as God revealed to Paul, and then to the earthly Apostles, explanation of such things explained to them by Paul (II Peter 3:14-18).

Who first tells us about the Gospel of Grace; faith, hope and charity? Paul or John?

Such things as this were hidden in God from the beginning. Today the Jew can come just as we (me) Gentiles. We should note John, along with Peter and the other Apostles, including James were not allowed (while Jerusalem and the Temple still stood) to preach to the heathen. They shook hands with Paul and Barnabas on this matter – Galatians 2 relates to Acts 15.

There were two gospels being preached to the Gentile (the other from “troublers” of the Judean church), and Paul wanted them to stop that other gospel that was only for the Jew. A Gentile can never come as a Jew into the Temple, but a Jew can come today just as we Gentiles into the Holy of Holies, for we were crucified with Him, coming through His blood. He is coming for us that are in His body, catching us up to Him to be with Him forever. Then the motion towards the “kingdom to come” begins again, for God has promised this to Israel, and the Gentile proselytes, can tag along. Those that make it will wish to curry favor with the Jew for God is with THEM – Zechariah 8:23.

John wrote all of his books about 30 years after Paul, and this is the reason I said John in his writings sounds like Paul. At Pentecost and years afterwards the gospel preached by the Apostles in Jerusalem was that of the “great commission” for this was the only gospel available to them. Praise God for the “unsearchable riches in Christ” (Romans 11:28-33). The Gospel of Christ Jesus from heaven as revealed to Paul is the gospel of the Cross, the only Gospel today that can save, “believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved, and our house". Now our repentance is in Him; our circumcision and baptism done without hands. Justified in the name of Jesus Christ, and sanctified by the Holy Ghost, sealed in. We are Once Saved Always Saved.

Neither one gives me any day to worship for I worship God alone.


Amen! God the Father, The Only Begotten Son of the Father - God the Word/Son, and God the Holy Spirit did not give utterance to John, Paul, or any other Apostle the authority for man to institute Christmas or Easter. Whom do we follow? Man or God? Are the darts and arrows thrown at those that believe His Word, really intended for us? Can we not ask, who it is that is behind adding worldly worship that is not of God? Are the Christian churches today any different than Israel going to be with other god’s on their Holy Days?

uhhh…. what does that scripture have to do with the subject?

Man has a great tendency to gravitate toward others that are not God. Ever thought about where the “Christmas tree” idea began? Jeremiah 10:2 tells us and warns against such things. ”Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.
3. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.
4. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not”, Jeremiah 10:2-4.

a Few Questions

1. Do you celebrate the 4th of July? If so why do you remember the founding Fathers of the USA and their accomplishments but not remember the Saints and their accomplishments? Even here in the SBC in December we remember Lottie Moon and her example she set for us,

2. Do you celebrate Veterans day. Memorial Day? If so why do you remember the Military veterans and their accomplishments but not remember the Saints and their accomplishments?

3. Should the Vietnam memorial and WW2 memorial be destroyed since using your logic they are idols that worship man?

4. Is Secretary’s Day idolatry? Since that is honoring woman and not God using your logic.

5. Do you oppose 911 ceremonies? since using your logic that is worshipping man. </font>[/QUOTE]Holy Cow! Are we now supposed to catalogue these earthly remembrances as Holy Days? If so could we add Mothers Day, Fathers Day, Gramps and Grandma Day. Please count me out of these Holy Days.

All these days and dates are known for they are of man. Please tell me from the Word of God the exact month, and day that Christ was born. We really do need to understand these things. Christian faith, ituttut

 

Just as today, so it was then, the flocks were brought in from the fields the winter and rainy season. We find this has been so, possibly from the beginning as shown in Ezra 10:9 and 13; Song of Solomon 2:11. I’ll take the Word of God in this case.

Sheep was a must for Israel, not just as an investment, but also for sacrifice. Sheep are defenseless, and must be cared for. Bethlehem is in the hills, at an elevation of 2,500 or so feet, and I know it can get cold in Oklahoma at 2,500FABSL. They would be through with the harvest in September, and have their ground tilled by the first part of October.

If there was anybody that knew how to run a huge kingdom at that time, it was Rome. The Jew was a rebellious nation and Rome knew they would never get a head count of forcing travel in the winter. The Roman soldiers did not want a fight on their hands in the wintertime any more than modern day Generals, unless it is absolutely necessary. Also taxes were right after the harvest, and fits into the time frame of September/October before the rains began.

I have seen no evidence here or anywhere that is credible for a December birth. Christian faith, ituttut

 

ituttut,

I see that your reasoning is inconsistent.

You insist on strictly following Biblical sources (as you interpret them), yet your reasoning as to why Jesus' birth could not have been in December is entirely based on human speculation. This is very inconsistent, and I'm guessing you use it because there is NO other way for you to prove your point.

On the other hand, Scripture does point toward a December birth of our Lord, given that Gabriel's Annunciation to Mary occurred 'in the sixth month.' According to the Jewish calendar, that would place the Annunciation in March, with Jesus' birth coming 9 months later in December.

Your comparison of Oklahoma to Israel in December is laughable. You might as well compare Tampa to Moscow. Geography, proximity to the ocean, elevation, and many other factors all affect climate. What might be feasible at one latitude is impossible at a different location on the same latitude, simply because of local conditions - even during the same time of the year.

Alexander

 

Ever thought of checking out weather patterns in Palestine? It might help to confirm the two seasons that prevail there, including the inclement weather in December. You might also check with how sheep are handled in the present day, and the flocks gathered and placed in pens during December, getting ready for the January births. Lambs must be ready for the passover sacrifices.

We cannot get all the information from the Bible text alone. We draw on outside sources to support wot scripture is saying, ie: history, secular references, climatology, geography and even secular facts, such as the writings of Josephus, a Jewish historian.

Cheers,

Jim

current weather in Bethleham:

"This was a very, very exceptional Christmas," said Abdel Rahman Ghayatha, the Palestinian police commander in downtown Bethlehem. "We did not expect this big a turnout of people, especially in light of the rain and cold. It was very exceptional and very orderly."

[ December 29, 2005, 11:14 AM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

Jim1999: //current weather in Bethleham:

"This was a very, very exceptional Christmas," said Abdel Rahman Ghayatha, the Palestinian police commander in downtown Bethlehem. "We did not expect this big a turnout of people, especially in light of the rain and cold. It was very exceptional and very orderly."//

THis is misleading. If you had the temp and rain like
on Christmas Day in Bethlehem you would put on your shorts
(in Canada). 'cold' is relative (and a translation error
might also be present). Would you go to Palm Springs, California
to play Golf? People do on Christmas day.
Bethelhem has the same climate at Palm Springs, California.

'Shepherds can abide in the fields about 5 out of 7
25 Decembers. They don't just fold up and go home.
You know back about 0001BC they didn't have any handy
SheepSheds-R-US to rent.

 

Ed Edwards,

Thanks for your enlightening comments about what the weather in Palestine in December is like,

Part of the problem with this discussion is that some folks assume that December in Palestine is like December in the higher latitudes of the northern hemisphere. It isn't, and your comments help clarify that.

But the larger question is this: why do some people just have to do their best to cast doubts on a Christian tradition nearly 2000 years old? And a tradition that is, after all, based on historical/Scriptural texts? If someone wants to deny him/herself and their family the joy of the seaon, that's fine. But I don't see the need to cast that 'Bah! Humbug!' spirit out to the rest of the world. I say we should celebrate Christmas joyously, rapturously, with child-like wonder and heart-felt gratitude! Let's join the angelic chorus: Peace on earth! Good will to men!

Alexander

 

Let me see if I got this right....Elizibeth gave birth in the 6th month.

On the Jewish calandar that would be the month of Elul.

But Mary concieved when Elizibeth was 6 months along in her preganancy.

So this would make the month that Jesus was born somewhere posibley in the month of Nissan. (March -April) Nissan is also the Month of Passover.

If you want to know how I figured this out....
I read Luke 1 to get my info and found a Jewish calendar @ Judaism 101 and checked it out. Also don't forget to count out the pregnancy right with adding 1 month extra on Mary's conceving day. Starting with the month of Sivan (May- June).