OSAS vs. Heb 6

Why assume that? The text tells us that many did not believe and that they therefore struggled with His words. When Jesus asked His disciples, Peter's response was,

"Lord to whom would we go? You have the words of eternal life. And we have believed and come to know that you are the Holy One of God."

BD

 

Who can say. Do you suppose the twelve didn't struggle with His words?

 

Riverm: //Forgive me, I’m not a bible scholar
steeped in Greek, so I’m a slow learner.//

I will NOT forgive you. Before i forgive you you must do
some transgression against me. You have done no
transgression against me, so i cannot forgive you.

anyway, being steeped in Greek has nothing to do with
being a Bible scholar, though I suppose being steeped
in Greek would help one, if one were a Bible scholar.

If one is a Bible scholar one notices that about
¼ of the New Testament is about GOOD THINGS ONE SHOULD SO
if one is saved.

One also notices some truths which God cannot violate
because of the very Nature of God.

1. Jesus saves.

2. Jesus saves us, our good works do not save us

(BTW, your confessing Jesus as Lord does NOT save you,
though you have to do it to get saved /the way I know about/.
Your faith does NOT save you, though you do have to have
faith that God raised Jesus from the dead to get saved
/the way I know about/. )

3. Jesus saves us so we can do good works.

4. You can know you are saved, there is no way you can
know if somebody else is saved. Judging the salvation
of another is taboo.

(Sorry, even those I know whom God gives the gift of
'discernment of spirits' cannot always 'get it right' when
it comes to judging the salvation of others)

These scriptural/Biblical principles are true whether
you believe in OSAS or don't believe in OSAS.

Riverm: //Ironically I work
with an older man who was a Presbyterian pastor for 25 years
and pastor 3 churches. I don’t know all the details surrounding
his de-conversion, but all he will tell me is that it
was something that didn’t happen overnight, it was just
events and things that had happened to him and those he
was close to that eventually led him away from God.//

If that man was saved then lost, then the God who said
the following is a liar. (BTW, God cannot lie).

Romans 8:37-39 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003):

No, in all these things we are more than victorious
through Him who loved us.
38. For I am persuaded that neither death nor life,
nor angels nor rulers,
nor things present, nor things to come,
nor powers,
nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing
will have the power to separate us
from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord!

I find it strangely absurd to think that if none of these things
can seperate us, then we ourselves, in a moment (or even 30 years)
of weakness, could seperate us from Christ Jesus our Lord.

I understand the term 'unsalvation' makes sense.
But look at the other terms used to represent our salvation
(isn't it interesting that the most important things God keeps
saying over and over in different ways? Or new status as
a saved person must have been important to God, He kept talking
about it in his Bible. The following list is suggestive
only and does NOT cover all the descriptions of our salvation.)

1. BORN-AGAIN When we get saved by Jesus we are like
being born-again a second time. Can you comprehend being
un-born-again?

2. born into the family of God
can you feature being un-'born into the family of God'?

3. adopted into the family of God
can you feature being un-'adopted from the family of God'?

4. putting on clean white robes of righteousness
can you feature God running a nudist colony ?

5. being redeemed - this is a slavery term. A slave
that has been sold into slavery is BOUGHT BACK.
Can you feature being un-redeemed?

6. bought with a price - that price was the precious
life-blood of our Lord and Savior: Messiah Jesus
Can you feature God selling you into slavery? Even if God
were inclined to so so, nobody else
can possibly PAY that kind of price.

 

James_Newman: // ... I use the term salvation to mean our free eternal
salvation on the last day ... //

Unfortunate definition. Your definition presupposes the conclusion
of your argument. This is the definition of one who
beleives you can be lost after being saved, a very unscriptural
definition.

Suppose I define 'SALVATION - the free gift of God through
Christ Jesus received at the end of eternity'.
That is impossible. 'Eternity' is defined as time without
end, so it has no end, no last day upon which salvation
is complete.

So, you define salvation as something you collect
when JEsus comes to get us and take us home with Him.
Sorry, that is when we get a new body, that is when
the GLORIFICATION part of salvation happens, not the
rest of salvation.

Please don't ignore what i said earlier:

For the saved person:
Salvation past is JUSTIFICATION (initial salvation)
Salvation present is SANCTIFICATION (day-to-day
working with Christ to stay clean)
Salvation future is GLORIFICATION (the final
and eternal state of salvation.

Salvation is what Jesus does:
Justification is of Christ,
Sanctification is of Christ,
Glorification is of Christ.

Salvation is COMPLETE when Jesus Justifies you;
salvation is COMPLETE from the beginning.
Again, salvation has no end, so when do you get salvation?
You get salvation at the START.

I can't figure out who said it, some people quote quotes of
quotes of quotes and i can't figure it out:

//You have free will right now just as you did the day you
believed on the Lord and were born again.//

I respectfully disagree. When you accept Jesus as savior and
Jesus saves you, your free will dies.

Jesusrocks: //Again, I have to protest, how would that
fit in with Romans 11:22? It says, very explicitly, "CUT OFF".
If you are cut off from the vine/tree, you are dead
unless you get "grafted back in".//

BTW, this saying is repeated six times on page 3 and page 4
(prior to my posting it again). Is it really necessary to
repeate ALL these 4-way and 5-way conversations?

Your protest is spitin' into the wind. The context of Romans 11
is very explicitly talking about whole categories of
people not individual salvation. BTW, I'm teaching Romans 11 to
my Sunday School class next Sunday morning. I teach usually 6 to 8
men 41-60 nominally 44-68 actually. I'm 62 years old.
The alternate teacher and I are the two over 60.

Doubting Thomas: //It's amazing the lengths folks
will go to distort Scripture in order to protect the idol of OSAS.//

Strike One.
Three strikes and you are out of here.

I define OSAS (once saved, always saved) to mean
what ever this verse means:

John 3:16 (HCSB):
For God loved the world in this way:
He gave His One and Only SOne, so that everyone
who believes in Him will not perish but have
eternal life.

So in my mind you are either (none of which is good):

1. Calling God's Written WOrd in John 3:16 an idol.
2. Calling God's Written WOrd in John 3:16 a 'distort Scripture'.
3. Accusing God of creating an idol IN HIS WRITTEN WORD.

But, of course, i've been known to overreact when folks try
to talk with their foot in their mouth.

Charles Meadows: //I would not say that I believe "OSAS".
I prefer the term "perseverence of the saints".//

That works for me.

 

Jesusrocks: //It's free but "requires participation"... is faith now a "work"?//

Oops, missquote. Here is what was said
about "requires participation":

James Newman: //There is truth that
it is all of grace, because it is Christ who gives us
the power to overcome, it is ultimately Christ working
through us that will bring us into the inheritance.
But it requires participation on our part,
whereas the free gift is just that, a free gift that God
gives to any man who believes.//

Amen, Brother James Newman -- preach it!

Bmerr: //However, the relationship between Christ and the church,
(and thus, Christ and the Christian), is only compared
to the husband/wife relationship (Eph 5:22-32).
If an unfaithful spouse can be put away, why could
an unfaithful Christian not be put away from Christ?//

Uh, you forgot some other scriptures.

1. God compares the Relationship with the chruch as the
body of Christ Jesus. But that works in your favor, I can
see if Jesus wants to get rid of a gooey you, He will pop
out your pus like a squishy zit

2. Uh, the BORN AGAIN relationship is specified by
JESUS Himself in John 3. Better not be so hasty as to
discared it.

 

Nowhere. It's just one of the bad fruits of OSAS and dispensationalsim to make such false distinctions.

Good point. </font>[/QUOTE]Thomas.
Just what do you consider to be the will of the Father? I let you think about it for a few seconds.

No Thomas, you are wrong. The real answer is to be found in John 6:40. Now please go to John 6:47 and 11:25-26 and quit doubting.

 

The reason that no one that really knows Scripture and doesn't take Scripture out of context would bring up such a verse.

A disciple is just a student. Just because the 12 disciples are called disciples doesn't mean that the ones that left His teaching were called, saved and then lost.

Read John 17 and 1 John 2:18-20 which states:

"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things."

And I would recommend that since you believe like the Catholic Church that you must work towards salvation after that salvation has been started but not completed by Christ, that you read Gal. 3:1-3; Rom. 10:2-4 and consider why you can't brag if you have indeed earned it yourself. Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 4:4-5.

1 Cor. 1:31

You may think that Jesus rocks (which He doesn't), but it is assured that He is not your Rock.

[ December 15, 2005, 09:33 PM: Message edited by: JackRUS ]

 

Bmerr.
You wrote:

Actually 2 Cor. 5:17 says we are indeed a new creation. And Jesus is going to marry the church. The whole church as His (singular) bride. Not a bunch of individuals. He is not a polygamist.

 

This is what happens to people that sit and listen to preaches who present proof texts and don't check the whole context for themselves.

And JR's proof-text just went the way of the Dodo bird.

 

The OT goes even further than that: Genesis 15:18 tells us that the children of Israel were in the Promised Land before they even started on their journey. Following baptism (representing obedience by their experience in the Red Sea), they were on their journey to the Land Flowing with Milk and Honey, which is representative of the Kingdom; inheritance. God saved them, but they fell short of the Kingdom.

My opinion matters not at all; only Scripture matters. I think that Me4Him, Faith Alone, and James Newman filled in with plenty of Scripture. You still are saved; you're not in the lake of fire. But, you could be cast into outer darkness instead of enjoying the inheritance that you could have had. There will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth by many Christians when they realize what they've missed out on.

I would even go a bit further with a modification: If you study, you will notice that about 95% of the NT is about good things one should do if saved or warnings about what one shouldn't do if you're saved. Only a very, very small portion concerns common salvation.

Amen, Brother! If you could, then apparently you're stronger than God!

As far as Universal Reconciliation goes (I think that was started on this thread), that is the teaching that everyone will eventually be saved. UR teaches that the lost will spend a long, but limited time in the lake of fire.

There are many who realize that aionios does not mean "eternal" (eternal means without beginning or ending or existing outside of time; only God is eternal), nor does it mean everlasting. So they extrapololate to say that no one spends the rest of eternity in the lake of fire. (Their teachings go much deeper than that, but unless you request more, I think this gives you the idea.)

 

How does one square this scripture which clearly talks about those who have received the gospel and tasted the heavenly bread which is Christ, the good word of god, who nevertheless fall away.

Your thoughts? </font>[/QUOTE]We must take into account to whom this book is written. Jesus says He came for His own (nation) while He was on this earth. The Jews (no Gentile was preached to until after Damascus Road Acts 9 and 10) had been enlightened, and tasted that bread (but not the blood) of that heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Ghost.

These were not Christians in the Body of Christ, but those Jews that were of the promise, those in prophecy that were, and most still are (along with so many Jew and Gentile today), looking for that “kingdom to come”. They refused the gospel of John the Baptist of the “kingdom is at hand”, but they, Israel, were a dying tree, even after being fertilized and bore no fruit. They refused their King, so the “kingdom at hand” did not come. No King equals no Kingdom.

Verse 5 says they tasted the word of God, and the powers of the world to come. This is the gospel of the “great commission” of repent and is baptized for the remission of their sins. This is not the gospel of the “grace commission” of the Cross “believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved by the grace of God through the faith of His Only Begotten Son”, who shed His blood for all.

The Jew was “conditionally saved”, and had to endure until the end. We today in the Body of Christ are saved the moment we believe on His name to save us, and that is OSAS, our “unconditional salvation” for we believe the Word of God as He speaks to us today through His heavenly Apostle to the Gentile, and also those of the seed of Abraham. Christian faith, ituttut

 

Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our profession, Christ Jesus;

I'm sorry, brother, but Hebrews is written to believers. It is easy to say 'yeah, but believing Jews' but we should know better.

Galatians 3:26-29
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The gospel of 'repent and be baptized' is the gospel of the kingdom. It is the fullness of the gospel, not the gospel for Jews. We must believe and be born again for our eternal status, then repent and be baptized for entrance into the kingdom. I don't know if there will be anyone in the kingdom who is not baptized, unless special circumstances are considered, but no man has to be baptized to be saved on the last day.

Gal 2:15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

The Jew had to be saved the same way anyone else did. There had to be a sacrifice. A jew could not ultimately be saved by keeping the law any more than you could.

 

I know what falling away means... but the point still remains that those who fall away MUST come back. We must always ask forgiveness for our sins. YES, they were all forgiven at Calvary, but that's not a blanket "don't worrying about asking for forgiveness anymore". Think of your parents-- you know they'll always forgive you, but that doesn't mean you never say you're sorry anymore and you never ask pardon for your wrongdoings.

Again, I have to ask, where is choice in the matter? Do we suddenly lose the ability to sin when we're saved? (and we surely know that this is false) And what is sin but separation from the Lord-- and Paul tells us (Galatians 5:4) if we are void of Christ we are also separated from grace. (and yes, in context, Paul is speaking of circumcision... but his main point-- that those who are void of Christ are also fallen from grace). But do "saved" Christians suddenly become unable to choose anything other than God... they no longer choose to love God and struggle in their lives?

 

I believe that the people referred to here in Hebrews 6 are indeed genuine believers... Christians. Let me demonstrate why I take it that way 1st before I give my arguments for why I believe that eternal destruction is not in view here, IMO.


Hebrews 6:4-8 4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. 7For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.

BTW, we see that Chap. 6 starts with "therefore." What's it there for? Looking back to the end of chap. 5 we see that we are dealing w/ immature believers, who have not gone on past the basics of the Christian life. Immature believers who are not growing in Christ, who are not digging into God's Word, are more susceptible to what we are warned about in vss. 4 - 8. We all need to be grounded in God's Word - and that takes much time and effort. But it's worth it!

What did the author of the Book of Hebrews mean when he wrote of the impossibility of renewing apostates to repentance in vs. 6?

This passage has bothered many believers in this forum, I'm sure. Actually the interpretation is rather straightforward and easy to explain if our understanding of God's Word allows the possibility of genuine believers falling away from the Lord - yet still being saved. (Otherwise this passage poses a major problem - it requires some stretching of the text out of where it naturally falls, IMO. I would even say that those who believe that you can lose your salvation are treating this passage more fairly than those who say that this is not referring to believers!) I am certainly well aware that it can happen to me! Thank you Lord for your graciously dealing with me!

The illustration of vss. 7-8 could be interpreted in one of at least three ways:

1 - A contrast between a true believer and an unbeliever
2 - A contrast between a faithful enduring Christian and an "apostate" Christian who loses his salvation
3 - A contrast between a faithful believer who is fruitful and an unfaithful believer [but not involving loss of salvation]
The decision about which interpretation to choose should not be based upon one’s preconceived theology as primary resort, but first and foremost upon the exegetical details of 6:7-8 and the general context.

In regard to context, nothing explicitly has been said about loss of salvation, and the details of 6:4-6 do not seem directed at unbelievers (not withstanding the fact that several commentators have opted for this suggestion). Context is more in favor of option three above, especially since mature and immature believers have been in view since 5:11.

Believers are being considered (vss. 4-5). There should not be any reasonable doubt that believers are in view, IMO. There are 5 participal phrases in vss. 4-5 which are difficult to interpret any other way. Isn't it clear that only believers can be said...
1 - to have been enlightened,
2 - to have tasted the heavenly gift,
3 - to have become partakes of the Holy Spirit,
4 - to have tasted the good Word of God, and
5 - to have tasted the powers of the age to come.

The whole book is addressed to Hebrew (Jewish) Christians - let's keep that firmly in our mind as we approach this passage. This is one of 5 major warning sections in the book. The question then is what is the warning regarding? Is it warning believers that if they fall away they can never be restored to repentance. Well, IMO, the warning is directed to believers - a very severe warning indeed...

Let's look at those participial phrases more closely - I think when we do that we will have to admit that they are referring to someone who has experienced the new birth:

TOUS APAX FOTISTHENTAS -&gt; This is the beginning of that string of participles describing those who fall away. It is an aorist passive, indicating something done to them rather than by them. Also there is a parallel usage of this root in 10:32.

GEUSAMENOUS TE TAS DOREAS TAS EPOURANIOU -&gt; This is another aorist participle, dealing with what they tasted or experienced. Also, one should note that Jesus "tastes death" (same Greek word) in Hebrews 2:9, and we would not want to argue that this means He only sampled death but did not really die. The heavenly gift can be seen as a number of different things, but the sacramental understanding is the least supportable and also quite anachronistic. I would argue that this refers to the temporal side of salvation (as opposed to the eternal side, which is the finalization at the judgment).

KAI METOCOUS GENATHENTAS PNEUMATOS AGIOU ("partakers of the Holy Spirit") -&gt; This is again an aorist passive participle, thus showing the outside agency of this action, that they are made to be partakers, rather than making the move themselves. A parallel structure to this verse is found in Heb. 3:14, where the readers are said to be partakers of Christ, something which points to salvation. Therefore, without making too much separation between the work of Jesus and the work of the Holy Spirit, these phrases should be treated synonymously, or at least very similarly.

KAI KALON GEUSAMENOUS THEOU RAMA -&gt; This is another occurrence of the same aorist middle participle, just as earlier, dealing with tasting or experiencing. This time the quality of God’s word is what is being tasted, and it is to be evaluated as good. This would seem to point toward their having been saved, IMO.

DUNAMEIS TE MELLONTOS AIONOS -&gt; This is built off of the preceding participle, so the power of the coming age is also being tasted. Here I would point toward an eschatological hope being felt now, looking at the inauguration of the kingdom of God already being experienced by believers.


There are 3 more participial phrases that we should look at as well:
KAI PARAPESONTAS -&gt; This is the point of the entire argument, namely that these people "fall away." There is no hint of conditionality (lacking any sort of semantic qualifier... an "if"), yet it is implicit all the same, so most Bibles have added the "if" conditional. And the falling away is not a sure thing, it is just a "possibility." ("if they should then...")

ANASTAUROUNTAS EAUTOIS TON UION TOU THEOU -&gt; The pronoun carries the idea of advantage here, such that those people would be crucifying for themselves the Son of God again. That there would be some gain for them.

KAI PARADEIGMATIZONTAS -&gt; This present active participle is directly connected to the concept of Jesus’ crucifixion. It is intentionally dealing with His humiliation during His time of suffering, and the author is saying that He cannot be held up once more to that humiliation since He is now exalted (see especially 1:1-14).


So I believe that these individuals here are indeed saved.

 

I know what falling away means... but the point still remains that those who fall away MUST come back. We must always ask forgiveness for our sins. YES, they were all forgiven at Calvary, but that's not a blanket "don't worrying about asking for forgiveness anymore". Think of your parents-- you know they'll always forgive you, but that doesn't mean you never say you're sorry anymore and you never ask pardon for your wrongdoings.

Again, I have to ask, where is choice in the matter? Do we suddenly lose the ability to sin when we're saved? (and we surely know that this is false) And what is sin but separation from the Lord-- and Paul tells us (Galatians 5:4) if we are void of Christ we are also separated from grace. (and yes, in context, Paul is speaking of circumcision... but his main point-- that those who are void of Christ are also fallen from grace). But do "saved" Christians suddenly become unable to choose anything other than God... they no longer choose to love God and struggle in their lives? </font>[/QUOTE]If we must continually ask forgiveness for our sins to stay saved then we are in constant peril of eternal damnation in the lake of fire. You can't even be sure that you are saved right now, unless you can be sure that you have confessed all your sins since you got 'saved', can you? I could conclude that we must exist in a state of superposition, saved and unsaved at the same time, and we will never know our true state until it is examined at the judgment, sort of quantum Christianity. But I don't believe this is scriptural, I believe the bible tells us that we can know that we have life.

John 6:40
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

How can we be sealed unto the day of redemption if we don't know that we won't sin a sin unto death next week, next year... To say that we know we will not fall into sin would be sheer presumption.

James 4:14 Whereas ye know not what shall be on the morrow. For what is your life? It is even a vapor, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Calvanism and Arminianism are attempts to reconcile an apparent contradiction that doesn't need to be reconciled. Are we saved by grace or by works? Both doctrines are biblical, both are true, but they are not the same salvation. We must be saved by grace from the eternal condemnation of the law that we were born under, which could only be satisfied by the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Then we must be saved from wrath at the judgment seat of Christ, when our works will be judged by the one who redeemed us by His own blood.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

I just thought this needing repeating. Emphasis added by me.

 

So then, are there no consequences for sin? What's the point of struggling against sin and temptation if one will be saved no matter what?

I DO have close friends who grieve me deeply by their relationships. Both of them are stauch believers in OSAS, and engage in pre-marital sex (which they believe to be "right").. but claim even if it were not so, they would still be saved because nothing can snatch them away from Christ.


Furthermore, I would disagree that a Christian would be in constant state of worry over their salvation-- for they would KNOW that they are forgiven in Christ and the only thing they must do is repent and believe in the grace and mercy of He who is our Salvation. Our God is just and merciful, we know and we trust in that while recognizing our failings and begging His pardon and grace.

 

You don't consider being beaten with many stripes a consequence? Or being cast into outer darkness, where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth? The reason quantum Christians are not constantly worried about their own salvation is because they are using some arbitrary external measure to assure themselves that they know what the result of their judgment will be. Paul said that he did not count himself to have attained unto the resurrection.

Philippians 3:11-14
11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Is Paul talking about eternal salvation? If so, then no Christian in his right mind can say he knows he is saved.

 

That outer darkness is called "HELL".

Yes, he's referring to final salvation which is experienced by those who endure to the end.

Hmmm...you might be on to something...especially if you're talking about final salvation. Perhaps Paul was refusing to be as presumptuous as some modern day Christians who deny the possiblity that they might ever fall away.

 

That outer darkness is called "HELL".
</font>[/QUOTE]I agree.

Yes, he's referring to final salvation which is experienced by those who endure to the end.

Hmmm...you might be on to something...especially if you're talking about final salvation. Perhaps Paul was refusing to be as presumptuous as some modern day Christians who deny the possiblity that they might ever fall away. </font>[/QUOTE]I do believe a Christian can fall away, I just don't believe that means they must go to the lake of fire for all eternity. I don't believe for a minute that Paul was unsure that he would be saved on the last day.