OSAS vs. Heb 6

Brother jesusrocks: Jesus rocks!

Luke 19:37-40 (KJV1611 Edition):
And when he was come nigh euen now at the descent of the
mount of Oliues, the whole multitude of the disciples began
to reioyce and praise God with a loud voice, for all the mighty
workes that they had seene,
38 Saying, Blessed bee the King that commeth in the Name of
the Lord, peace in heauen, and glory in the Highest.
39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude saide
vnto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
40 And he answered, and said vnto them, I tell you, that
if these should holde their peace, the stones would
immediatly cry out.

Yep, I'd call such praising rocks (stones): JESUSROCKS.

You go boy!!!!! \o/ Praise Jesus \o/

 

Romans 11 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

 

Yeah.. I brought up that verse before, but it was commented that it refers to this mysterious "inheritance" (that's different from salvation) that Christians may or may not receive, depending upon their deeds.

 

#1. Nobody is punished Chastised during the 1000 years other than Satan and his angels cast into the pit.

The 1000 years starts with the "First resurrection" as we are told in Rev 20.

The comes at the time of the "coming of the Lord" as described in Rev 19, in 1Thess 4 and in 2Thess 2.

#2. In Rev 19 ALL the wicked are destroyed by Christ and as we see in 1Thess 4 ALL the righteous (both the dead in Christ and the living) are caught up in the air and taken to heaven.

#3. That means that the 1000 years is when we are introduced to the "desolate earth" depicted in the OT with "ruined cities" and "no one alive" and "bodies covering the surface of the earth" with no one left to bury them.

Rev 19 shows that the "feast of the birds" is what kicks that off when the wicked are all slain and the animals are left to feed on the corpses.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Well - NOT in 2Cor 5!!

In the "age to come -- eternal life" can be see over and over again. So also in 1Cor 6 we see the the wicked do not receive either rewards OR eternal life!

In 1Cor 6 Paul emphsizes the point saying "be not deceived".

In Christ,

Bob

 

BobRyan: //#1. Nobody is punished Chastised during the 1000 years
other than Satan and his angels cast into the pit.//

Amen, Brother BobRyan - Preach it!

BobRyan: //#2. In Rev 19 ALL the wicked are destroyed by Christ
and as we see in 1Thess 4 ALL the righteous (both the dead
in Christ and the living) are caught up in the air and taken to heaven.//

Rev 19:20 (KJV1611 Edition):
And the beast was taken, & with him the false prophet,
that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceiued
them that had receiued the marke of the beast, and them
that worshipped his image. These both were cast aliue
into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Apparently unsaved (aka: wicked) who did not take the
mark of the beast nor worshipped his image are still left.
So NOT 'ALL the wicked are destroyed by Christ'.

BTW, 1 Thess 4 described the pretribulation Rapture Event
and Revelation 19 described the post-tribulation
Second Coming of Jesus Event. One is at the beginning
of the Tribulation Day; the other at the end of the
Tribulation Day.

BobRyan: //#3. That means that the 1000 years is when we are
introduced to the "desolate earth" depicted in the OT with
"ruined cities" and "no one alive" and "bodies covering
the surface of the earth" with no one left to bury them.//

Rev 20:4 (KJV1611 Edition):
And I saw thrones, and they sate vpon them, and iudgement was
giuen vnto them:
& I saw the soules of them that were beheaded for
the witnesse of Iesus, and for the word of God,
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image,
neither had receiued his marke vpon their foreheads,
or in their hands;
and they liued and reigned with Christ a thousand yeeres.

I believe that they live and reign with Christ 1,000 years
on the earth, not in heaven.

When does this happen in your eschatology?

Isa 11:4-8 (KJV1611 Edition):
But with righteousnesse shall he iudge the poore,
and reprooue with equitie, for the meeke of the earth:
and he shall smite the earth with the rodde of his mouth,
and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousnesse shalbe the girdle of his loines,
and faithfulnesse the girdle of his reines.
6 The wolfe also shall dwell with the lambe,
and the leopard shall lie downe with the kid:
and the calfe and the yong lion, and the fatling together,
and a litle child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the beare shall feed, their
yong ones shall lie downe together: and the lyon
shall eate straw like the oxe.
8 And the sucking childe shall play on the hole of the aspe,
and the weaned childe shall put his hand on the cockatrice denne.

IMHO, it happens in the 1,000 prosperous years on earth:
the Messianic kingdom.

 

TWO are thrown alive INTO the lake of fire. "THE REST" are killed.

In Christ,

Bob

 

And the question of the TWO thrown alive into the lake of fire - (the TWO being the Beast and the False Prophet) -- the question is -- are these two PEOPLE, or are they two organizations that are destroyed by the fire that consumes all Christ's enemies?

It does not say they "remain alive" just that they are living at the time they are thrown into the lake of fire.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Well - NOT in 2Cor 5!!

In the "age to come -- eternal life" can be see over and over again. So also in 1Cor 6 we see the the wicked do not receive either rewards OR eternal life!

In 1Cor 6 Paul emphsizes the point saying "be not deceived".
</font>[/QUOTE]???



Were you answering my question or commenting?

 

Let's try to "define", "Inheritance".

1. a "Relative" must die.
2. Property belonging to them is given to you.
3. Property for which "YOU" did not "WORK" to obtain.
4. Property for which "YOU" are now responsible.

Let's read a parable about "Inheritance".

Lu 20:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.

10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty. (prophets)

11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.

12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.

13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.

14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others.

We are all "Creations of God", as such, like Adam, given responsibility (Dominion) over the "planet". (Vineyard)

Jesus, the son of God, offer us the title of "Son of God" and as a "Brother", "heir, joint heir" with him in his inheritance of the "New Earth".

However, some reject his offer to work the "Vineyard" for him and want to claim the "property" (earth) for their own.

Since our "Brother died", his inheritance (light of the world) is given to us. (light of the world)

We didn't "WORK" for this inheritance, it was a "FREE GIFT", but if we accept it, then we become responsible for "IT",

"IF" we reject it, we lose that "Inheritance".

But to be "ENTITLED" for an "Inheritance", we must be "RELATED" to the deceased. (SONS OF GOD)

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,

Given more time, I'm sure I could explain it "better", but maybe in discussing it, we can "work out the kinks".

 

The TWO are "people".

Re 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night "FOREVER AND EVER".

Mr 9:44 Where their "worm" (soul) dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

 

Let's try to "define", "Inheritance".

1. a "Relative" must die.
2. Property belonging to them is given to you.
3. Property for which "YOU" did not "WORK" to obtain.
4. Property for which "YOU" are now responsible.

Let's read a parable about "Inheritance".

Lu 20:9 Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.

10 And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty. (prophets)

11 And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.

12 And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.

13 Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.

14 But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

15 So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

16 He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others.

We are all "Creations of God", as such, like Adam, given responsibility (Dominion) over the "planet". (Vineyard)

Jesus, the son of God, offer us the title of "Son of God" and as a "Brother", "heir, joint heir" with him in his inheritance of the "New Earth".

However, some reject his offer to work the "Vineyard" for him and want to claim the "property" (earth) for their own.

Since our "Brother died", his inheritance (light of the world) is given to us. (light of the world)

We didn't "WORK" for this inheritance, it was a "FREE GIFT", but if we accept it, then we become responsible for "IT",

"IF" we reject it, we lose that "Inheritance".

But to be "ENTITLED" for an "Inheritance", we must be "RELATED" to the deceased. (SONS OF GOD)

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God,

Given more time, I'm sure I could explain it "better", but maybe in discussing it, we can "work out the kinks". </font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the attempt... but it still fails to answer the WHAT of my question. Earlier in this thread it was put forth that "inheritance" is different/separate from salvation/eternal life. So then I have asked (and continue to ask) what then are we "inheriting"?

 

Jesus rocks,

I think I was explicit. We know that there will be several crowns. We also know that position in the kingdom is at stake. We again know that opportunity for closer fellowship with theLord is at stake. We know thatauthority is at stake.

Jesus gave several parables about the kingdom of God. How specific can we be from those regarding what the kingdom will be like anyway? One thing we do know: He will be just, and it will be a great experience.

FA

 

Bob,

I agree that those on the earth during the 1000-yr. kingdom will not be punished. The BEMA seat is not, generally, about punishment. But according to some of Jesus' parables, some may be very disappointed, just as Jesus will be disappointed with some of us. If some gain greater opportunities and reward and authority, that is not punishment for some, but reward for others.

FA

 

Okay, then, Faith Alone, WHAT is the "inheritance"?

Is it...
"crowns"?
"position"?
the Kingdom?
eternal life?
something else?

 

All of the above. The expression "eternal life" is sometimes referred to as something that is inherited in scripture, because it is more than just living forever. There is "living" and then there is "Living."

We do not know a lot about the specifics of what is inherited because we do not know very much about the specifics of the kingdom AT ALL. Perhaps I should ask you to describe the typical life of the believer in the kingdom...

sitting on clouds playing those harps?
playing bingo in large halls? (Is the Holy Spirit the caller?)
Sitting around reading the Bible or watching old Televangelists?
Digging ditches and cleaning floors? (Fortunately gold doesn't corrode. )

Do you see my point?

But that there IS an inheritance cannot be refuted. Also, that there are rewards for faithful service is undeniable. We do know that Jesus' disciples asked Him for greater position in the kingdom as inheritance. We also know that the names of the 12 apostles are on the 12 walls of the new Jerusalem, and that they will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel.

Do you want to sit at Christ's table in the kingdom and eat and drink with Him? Do you think that equal opportunity is given to all regardless of their faithfulness to serve Him now? If you do, I'd like to see the biblical support for that.

In Romans 8:16, 17 Paul speaks about being heirs of God and joint-heirs of Christ. The expression "first-born" is used of Christ because the first-born had certain privileges, as well as a double portion of the inheritance. If we "suffer with Him" we will share in those privileges as joint-heirs.

Now, that said, as Bob has said this will be a fabulous experience for all believers. We will not be punished... but there are opportunities. Gods wants us to go for the gold. Paul certainly did.

ADOKIMOS - "disqualified." Paul was not saying here that after all his hard work, that if he slacked off that he was afraid of losing his salvation! He was referring to opportunities to hear, "Well done, thoguh good and faithful servant. You have been faithful in a little thing..." Paul wanted to enter into the joy of his Master. Paul wanted to share in the beneftis of the gospel.

There'smore from Paul:

Jesus is a righteous Judge. John 5:24 says that no believer will be "judged" ("condemned"). But we will all appear before the judgment (BEMA - not KRISIS) seat of Christ. There are rewards awaiting to all those who have loved His appearing.

Look at Paul's motiviation in 2 Corinthians 5:

Paul was motivated by thefear of missing out in some way. When he said "We must all appear before the BEMA seat of Christ..." he was referring to Christians. No unbeliever will appear there. Ofcourse, the love of Christ also motivates us, as we see later in the same chapter:

Today people focus on the 2nd motivation for living faithfully, but ignore the earlier one. the disciples were always seeking a greater inheritance. "Can I sit at Your right hand in the kingdom?" And they argued with one another about who would be greatest in the kingdom. Jesus did not correct then and say, "Hey guys, you got it all wrong. We're all going to be on a level in the kingdom." Instead he taught them that the pyramid is inverted... that we raise ourselves to a higher position in the kingdom by serving people now, and the person who wants to be greatest in the kingdom must be a slave to all.

It's all about inheritance.

FA

 

Well... not ALL about inheritance. Got a little excited, I guess, and it's too late to edit the post. But inheritance and service in the kingdom is a BIG topic in the Bible that gets kinda swept under the rug today.

BD

 

BOB

Here's the sequence of events.

1.Jesus returns, First Resurrection, Destroys the AC/bounds up Satan, Angel reaper separate the "Wheat/Tares", casting tares into hell.

2. "BEMA SEAT JUDGMENT". only the resurrected/righteous receive "REWARDS" according to their work.

Lu 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Lu 19:16 Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds.

17 And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities.

18 And the second came, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained five pounds.

19 And he said likewise to him, Be thou also over five cities.

Lu 19:27 But those mine enemies,(Tares) which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. (cast Tares into hell)

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: (reign over 10/5 cities) and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The "Tares" cast into hell remain there, along with all other previously unsaved dead, until the GWT.

Re 20:5 But the rest of the (unsaved) dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Those who "Physically" survive the trib will repopulate the earth, we don't marry in the resurrection, and sin will still be present in the MK.

God told Adam, "IN THE DAY" (1000 years) you sin, you die, no one can live a "whole day" (1000 years) if guilty of sin, so both righteous/unrighteous people will live and die during the MK.

These MK people are resurrected as the "SHEEP/GOAT'S" at the GWT. All those saved/resurrected by Jesus prior to the MK have "NO PART" in the "SECOND RESURRECTION/JUDGEMENT". (aren't Judged)

Re 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

(we live a "WHOLE DAY" and don't die, NO SIN)

 

Amen, Brother Me4HIm -- Preach it!

 

First of all, our inheritance is in the coming Kingdom. The OT, which is given to us as examples is chock full of examples of inheritance. Take the example of Jacob and Esau. Jacob esteemed the inheritance, Esau did not. Esau lost the double portion of the firstborn, as well as the blessing of the firstborn. (Don't look to him as a type of the lost, though; he still had an inheritance, he just lost the better part.)

Also, look to Isaac and Ishamael. Ishmael had an inheritance. He was the son under law instead of under grace. Although Isaac got the better inheritance by far, Ishamel still had an inheritance.

Salvation is not inheritance. Inheritance is a family matter. Inheritance is what you get, basically.

Please reread again for understanding what I said in my previous post. “If we are saved, we inherit Christ. Christ’s inheritance includes we that are saved.”If we are saved are we not in the “family”. You agree this would fit your above definition?

Would you mind backing this up with a Greek grammar text?

See below, and stay with me on this.

If it were "now", it would be present tense. It is aorist tense. It is punctiliar action. It's an event. The aorist tense is graphed as a dot on a timeline. The aorist tense can be stopped.

You are right, and I explain “the aorist verb tense expresses action ([/b]especially past action[/b]) without indicating its completion or continuation.” I was hoping for your explanation, and I like it even better, for it explains more clearly my “dispensational” view (see below) on this verse of Acts 16:31, “And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus, and thou shalt be saved, thou and thy house.” But in English, our language, we know for a fact the action is complete, and Jesus Christ has finished His work of Salvation, yet salvation continues, but not the act of Salvation. Are you saying there is more that Christ must do?

You are evidently a “Greek scholar”, and I am not. I speak tenses as understood in English. I do know what you say about the aorist tense is true (to the Greek scholar, wishing to know and understand all about the Greek language), but what we do know is how some that were not Greek used the Greek “tenses”. They evidently conformed to what their language would allow. Jesus knew the Greek language better than the Greek, but look at Matthew 14:29. Doesn’t Jesus’ use of a verb in aorist tense tell us something? For example, in Matthew 14:29, ”And he said, Come. And Peter went down from the boat, and walked upon the waters to come to Jesus.” Would you agree “Come” to be aorist imperative? Is Peter to “Came”? The “Come” is present, as we understand it.

To the Christian of the English language the verse indicates the present tense, and not past. We today know the name by which we are to be saved, and through His (Jesus) faithfulness, we are saved. He is completeness, and the meaning in English is present tense and the conclusion is shown.

Why do I as a dispensationalist like your explanation of strict Greek in this instance? Quote “It's an event. The aorist tense is graphed as a dot on a timeline. The aorist tense can be stopped.” Unquote. This could very well read “it’s a dispensation. The “aorist tense” is graphed as a stopping point in God’s dealing with His people. God is no longer in this dispensation dealing with His people. It stopped with the stoning of Stephen. It is like God’s Grace only salvation being dropped down from heaven, reconciling those chosen and willing in this present day dispensation. This dispensation will be taken up to heaven, allowing God to continue to deal with Israel, His nation, and all nations’. Can you say No! This fits the “aorist tense” the conclusion, the closure if you will, is yet to come for Jesus says He came for His own nation Israel. He will continue. That dot will move to the end. Thank you so much for your input confirming the “dispensational” gospel that Christ from heaven gave to Paul.

In Acts 16:31, if you believe (aorist tense; an event) on the Lord Jesus ("Christ" is not in the original), you will (indicative; a simple statement of fact) be saved. Period. No works involved, no obedience, no strings attached. In this verse, if you stop believing, you have still believed in the aorist tense. If you can lose your common salvation, then God is a liar and the Scriptures have error, and it's all useless because God is faulty. (He's not faulty, and he's not a liar, BTW.)

I believe your assumptions and belief are in error as far as OSAS. We are sealed and could not escape even if we wanted to. It is He that is complete, and when we believe, can we, or anyone or thing break that seal? Your argument cannot undo the completeness of Christ shown in Acts 16:31.

Obedience has to do with inheritance; inheritance is a family matter (you don't inherit anything from the stranger down the street, do you?); you are born into the family when you believe (aorist); you are placed into a position of son-ship by doing the will of the father; if you do the will of the father, you will have a better inheritance. </font>[/QUOTE]Answered this above. We are no longer under the curse of the law; we are not under a “schoolmaster”, but by grace through faith, saved without a work, or any work. You err for you speak not of the spirit, but of the physical of being obedient. It is of faith that we are saved, and by being perfect. To be gain inheritance by being obedient is an impossible task, for no one comes to the Father unless it through His Only Begotten Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, who was obedient. He is perfect and we “carnal” Christians in our bodies are made “spiritually” perfect in Him. As long as we are in these bodies, we are “carnal”, but in Him we are “made righteous, for He is righteous”. Christian faith, ituttut