OSAS vs. Heb 6

Look at this way.


God created the earth and "ADAM", a "son of God", then gave Adam "dominion" over the earth, God even "walked/talked" with Adam in the garden.

Satan came along and "Deceived Adam" out of his "INHERITANCE", the "Garden of Eden/walk/talk" with God.

Jesus came along and made an offer of "WHOSOEVER WILL", can have back their "INHERITANCE" of a "Garden of Eden/walk/talk" with God, on the "NEW EARTH".

The "New Earth" is the "inheritance" the "SECOND ADAM" (Jesus) restored that the "FIRST ADAM" lost.

1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the "last Adam" (Jesus) was made a quickening spirit.

1Co 15:22 For as in (first) Adam all die, even so in Christ (Second Adam) shall all be made alive.

Are you getting the "idea"???

 

Wow! Brother Me4Him, how do you figure out
how to explain stuff so short?

Amen, Brother Me4Him - Preach it!

 

"Med-dee-tate".

I run "mental programs" all the time comparing the OT events with NT events, the OT is our "Schoolmaster" to the NT.

And for the most part, I do have a "ONE TRACK MIND".

But it only functions at 16MHZ, 4 meg RAM.

 

I have a three-track mind, but two of
the trains that ride on them
are derailed

 

Matthew 25, is the first one that comes to mind. 1 John 4, as well.

The parables were written to and for the benefit of Israel. The Christian, and the Body of Christ, those saved by the grace of God through faith without works cannot be found in scripture before Damascus Road.

Son of man is Jewish speak, not Christian. We are not involved with the virgins or talents.

Not if you're an unfaithful or unprofitable servant. You will be cast into outer darkness. You will be a subject and not a sovereign. </font>[/QUOTE]I love you brother, and I hope you love me, for all today that believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation are saved from the “babes” on up. Praise God for all that preach and teach the unsearchable riches of Christ.

John sounds just like Paul in His writings doesn’t he – I Corinthians 13:13, ”And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.” He should for He had talked to Paul and read every Epistle Paul had written; II Peter 3 tells us this. All of John’s books were written at least 30 years after the death of Paul so John is well versed also in the dispensational gospel that Christ from heaven gave to Paul. Witness Ephesians 3:1-6; ”For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2. If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3. How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4. Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5. Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6. That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel”. Christian faith, ituttut

 

the answer is found here:

and for those who can't read english...:

and in another:

that should clear it up...

MH

 

me4Him,

Nice post on inheritance.

For the Jews, it was the kingdom that was on their mind. So inheritance in the kingdom was key. For some reason we tend to think of desiring a good inheritance as being selfish. But it is actually striving to serve our Master to our uttermost, and desiring to gain, as a reward, opportunities to get to know Him better.

I'll be out of town for about 10 days, and won't be able to check this, perhaps at all... not that anyone paid much attention to what I said anyway. (This thread is about Heb 6, and I posted what could be perceived as controversial stuff on it - in detail and supported my arguments... yet not one comment was made on the posts. I wonder why?)

Merry Christmas,

FA

 

Sorry for my delay in responding...

I'm not quibbling over the fact that there is an inheritance... but previously on this thread it was mentioned that our inheritance is absolutely separated from our salvation. Thus, our "inheritance" cannot be eternal life/heaven/etc. which is what brought on my questions (perhaps I should've made this clearer to begin with).

It was also stated earlier in this thread that a person could be saved and lose their inheritance... so then, I wanted to know what "inheritance" was for them, because if we define inheritance as eternal life/heaven than this simply cannot stand. One cannot be saved and not receive eternal life in Heaven.

 

Thx Jesusrocks,

Just FYI, IMO there is a sense in which all believers inherit, of course, as well as sense of inheritance that is determined at the BEMA seat of Christ.

So inheritance is not absolutely separated from salvation (assuming by "salvation" that you mean gaining entrance to the kingdom/heaven). But salvation is used in a much more holistic sense anyway - referring to growing in Christ here as well as our ultimate salvation when we receive our new bodies.

We do not "inherit" eternal life in the sense that it depends on our works here. But, as I expressed it earlier, there is "life" and then there is "LIFE." Jesus said that He came to give us life, and more abundantly. The abundance of that eternal life does depend on our faithfulness now. But inheritance is not just eternal life/heaven/the kingdom.

Thx for clarifying. Like I said earlier, I'll be out of town for a while soon. But I am curious as to why I described my position on Hebrews 6 and it was essentially ignored... not essentially, simply ignored. In fact, most of the comments I made were ignored... not exactly the best way to welcome someone into the discussion. I've never seen that happen on other forums, to that extent. What does a person need to do? ... be rude or say something completely outrageous? (I was tempted to do the latter to see what would happen... I refuse to be rude.)

Most of what I shared on Hebrews 6 is a different defense of OSAS than is typically applied. Most say that Hebrews 6 is not referring to Christians. My position, and I gave some support for it, is that it IS referring to what could happen to a genuine believer. But that it is not describing eternal destruction by the fire there at all.

I would have expected people from both sides of this argument to react. (The reformed position - "perseverance of the saints" - is that they are not believers because true Christians will persevere. I know that not too many are Calvinists in this forum, but this question is one that you'd expect Calvinists to get involved in.)

Thx jr. I was going to just leave the thread, but when you asked that question I decided to give some input since it is an area which I have studied a lot.

Have a merry Christmas,

FA

 

Faith alone: //Like I said earlier, I'll be out of town for a while soon. But I am curious as to why I described my position on Hebrews 6 and it was essentially ignored... not essentially, simply ignored.//

I've got over 8,000 posts. Here is what I said on page one, it was
largely ignored:

-----------------------------------------
Unfortunately the title of this topic: "OSAS vs. Heb 6"
is absurd. Hebrews Chapter 6 is the PROOF TEXT for
OSAS = Once Saved, Always Saved.

PeterMeansRock: //How does one square this scripture which clearly talks
about those who have received the gospel and tasted
the heavenly bread which is Christ, the good word of god,
who nevertheless fall away.//

Obviously by your question is is not clear to you.

The Random HOuse COLLEGE DICTIONARY, Revised Edition
(Random House. 1982) p.1107:

Reductio ad absurdum, n.
Latin. a reduction to an absurdity; the refutation of
a proposition by showing its logical conclusion as absurd.

Snitzelhoff: //I have heard it said that Paul was engaging in a common type of Greek
thought that took a hypothetical situation (losing one's salvation,
for instance) and thought it through to its conclusion
to show the folly in the hypothesis itself. In other words,
he was arguing that you can't lose your salvation because,
if you could, you could never regain it because you'd
have to sacrifice Christ a second time.//

Amen, Sibling Snitzelhoff -- RIGHT ON!!!
I which I could explain things as concisely as Sib.Snitzelhoff.

Unfortunatley, when I taught Logic in Public Schools, I found
out that 94% of Public School students are not taught Logic by a
competent teacher of Logic. This is Topic is a result of the
dumbing down of American Youth

(Please cite the Version used when quoting scriptures.
You should have the version name right in fron of you when you
paste (you don't type, I hope ) the scriputre into the BB
posting buffer. I have to wade through several likely translations
to figure out which the poster has fixed. I am required by the
scripture to check out the scripture for completeness and
correctness for every post I read.)

One should read the CONTEXT of one's passage
(it isn't necessary to always post that context).

Hebrews 6:1-3 (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/ ):

Therefore, leaving the elementary message about
the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not layihng again the
foundation of repentance from dead works, faith in God,
2 teaching about ritual washings, laying on of hands,
the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgement.
3 And we will do this if God permits

God Permitted. Paul spake of 'maturity ('perfection' in the KJV)
- the doctine of OSAS.

Unfortunately the Doctrine of Ignorance - that it is better for
a person to be ignorant (not know) has taken it's toll throughout
many denominations especially Baptists. One thing about the
the Doctrine of Ignorance, it allows the phony pastors to fool
the people easier. You older folks will remember when the
Baptists were against the totally Catholic Doctrine of Ignorance,
not even teaching their people to read so the Priestly class could
Lord it over the ignorant masses.

Now, what features of maturity does Paul talk about in Hebrews 6?

Hebrews 6:4-6 - OSAS
Hebrews 7:7-9 - the futility of the rebellion of the unsaved
Hebrews 7:10-12 - saved people are diligent to do good works - always
Hebrews 7:13-20 - the example of the Father of Faith - Abraham

(BTW, the phrase in Hebrews 7:19:
We have this Hope -- like a sure and firm anchor of
the soul -- ...

This phrase pretty much refutes any anti-OSAS moanings.
You can be sure of the hope: OSAS - for it is firmly anchored
in the Lord Messiah Jesus. Amen!

 

TWO are thrown alive INTO the lake of fire. "THE REST" are killed.

And the question of the TWO thrown alive into the lake of fire - (the TWO being the Beast and the False Prophet) -- the question is -- are these two PEOPLE, or are they two organizations that are destroyed by the fire that consumes all Christ's enemies?

It does not say they "remain alive" just that they are living at the time they are thrown into the lake of fire.


In Christ,

Bob </font>[/QUOTE]In Dan 7 the beasts or organizations - empires.

In Dan 8 the beasts are organizations - empires

In Rev 13 the beasts are organizations, nations, religious organizations.

In no case are they ever a single individual but rather the organizational structure into which people are plugged.

In Christ,

Bob

 

you are living in denial on this one Ed.

Both sides agree that Paul is not writing to people that have back-slidden from Christianity and no longer read scripture etc.Rather the READER is going to be some Christian with a copy of the letter to the Hebrews - probably one who is faithful. That is not the issue.

Not unlike the example Christ gives of the rocky ground where the seed of eternal life DOES bring forth life and for a time it grows and flourishes - life from the dead - as ONLY God can bring about. Brought "to repentance" in such a GOOD way that when one falls away we might seek to RENEW them to such a GOOD state.

But then.... it perishes.

IN the case of those WHO HAVE once BEEN enlightened!

(This is the view of the lost - in darkness ACCEPTING light such that they ARE enlightened - at least at one time).

AND have tasted of the heavenly gift

Not the description of the totally depraved lost.


AND have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

This is never the description of the totally depraved lost experience.

"AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY"

clearly FALLING away from being LOST is not a bad thing - it is a GOOD thing.

In Calvinism the lost never "fall away" from being lost. ONLY THE SAINTS can "fall away" ONLY THE SAINTS fail to remain in their initial condition, it is impossible for the totally depraved LOST to “fall away” from being lost.

Paul speaks of those that THEN have FALLEN AWAY from repentance, from the Holy Spirit, from the Heavenly Gift which is in fact salvation itself given as a gift through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice the first state of REPENTANCE is NOT called into question –

Notice the first state of “The Heavenly gift” and “partaking of the Holy Spirit” is the state in which they are supposed to have REMAINED. They are never chastised for BEING in that state – as if that was still “the lost state”. Indeed falling away from “a lost state” could only have been a good thing.

On the other hand – if that state were merely the corrupt state of false profession and halting just outside the threshold of the kingdom- then who cares whether we can RENEW THEM AGAIN to such an indecisive, unsaved, lost and totally depraved state of corruption?

Calvinists make a mockery of this text by denying it's clear meaning regarding RENEWING people back to Godly - genuine repentance and “tasting of the REAL heavenly gift” which is salvation itself.

Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Many/most calvinists would have us believe that worthless ground does NOT receive the same grace/ministry/drawing/calling as the good ground AND SO IT STAYS as worthless ground. INSTEAD of that view - scripture says they both receive the life giving ministry but the ground ITSELF is determining the response.

 

For what it's worth, I think saying the bema is only for rewards is false. Pilate sat on a bema and judged Jesus to death. Not much of a reward in the human sense.

 

If you will take time to read this post, I believe you will recognize what the Word tells you.

With certainty, here stating your (our) inheritance today is Jesus Christ as we are made God’s inheritance. The answers we ask are found only in the Word of God, and not from the minds of man, as they mix and mismatch. If no answer can be found, then we are not supposed to know. But our inheritance leaps from the pages of His Word that are written to we today. Our problem today is we are confused in which dispensation we live.

When we identify which dispensation we live in we then read in that dispensation to find our answers such as yours of “WHAT the inheritance is” for us today. What dispensation do we live in, and who writes to us? Romans 11:13, ” For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office. We must come to realize that until Damascus Road the Gentile was not included, other than as a proselyte to the Jewish faith, even after Pentecost. Jesus said He did not come for us (me), and no Gentile was preached directly to or at until after Acts 9. In Acts 10 we see Peter is the very first to do so, and only because Christ forced him to. Peter never again preached to a Gentile, as witnessed in Galatians 2:6-21, reference Acts 15. Notice Peter shook hands that he Peter would go only to the circumcised. Peter no longer had the authority from Christ to preach a gospel to the uncircumcised. Christ revealed to Paul he had the authority to preach to the Gentile, kings, and the circumcised.

Here is YOUR inheritance from our Savior God the Father: Ephesians, Chapter 1:
1. ”Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:
2. Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
3. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4. According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5. Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6. To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8. Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10. That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11. In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
12. That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise”.
14. Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
15. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
16. Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
17. That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
18. The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
19. And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
20. Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,
21. Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
22. And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23. Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.”

Is this not the answer to Your inheritance, and also the question of OSAS?

Comments? Christian faith, ituttut

[ December 21, 2005, 04:01 AM: Message edited by: ituttut ]

 

Pilate hardly counts.

That which has sin cannot enter heaven.
We saints go to heaven for the Bema Judgement
Seat of Christ. How is He going to damn us?
We are the ones that He saved.

When the saints get to Heaven for the Bema
Judgemetn Seat of Christ there is noting left
in the life of the saints but our good works
which are few and His blood covering our
sins - and His blood shed for Grace is much.

 

Pilate hardly counts.

That which has sin cannot enter heaven.
We saints go to heaven for the Bema Judgement
Seat of Christ. How is He going to damn us?
We are the ones that He saved.

When the saints get to Heaven for the Bema
Judgemetn Seat of Christ there is noting left
in the life of the saints but our good works
which are few and His blood covering our
sins - and His blood shed for Grace is much. </font>[/QUOTE]Ed, I would have to disagree that the BEMA take place in heaven, here's why.

Lu 19:13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.

Lu 19:15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, (keys=heaven/hell)

then (after his return) he commanded these servants to be called unto him,

This is a picture of Jesus leaving/returning to the "EARTH", and "WHERE/WHEN" the "TRIAL" of works takes place.

Angel reaper "FIRST" gather the "wicked" and cast them into the "FIRE", (Hell) there is no "TRIAL" of their works at this time, they are simply "confined" until their trial date at the GWT.

Mt 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

"AFTER" the "wheat/Tares" separation, the "Wheat" is then Judged and given the "Authority" they will excercise during the MK, according to their works. (five/ten Cities)

The "Lamb's Marriage supper", occurs in heaven during the trib, (pre trib rapture) it consist only of "Church Believers", (Jew/Gentiles),

during the trib many "JEWS" will be converted and the "Marriages Celebration" "IN CANA" will include both Church/trib converts,

this is when "WORKS" are Judged, both, Church/trib converts.

The main point being, is that when Jesus returns, he "STAYS" here on the earth for the MK.

 

Ed said --
//Unfortunately the title of this topic: "OSAS vs. Heb 6"
is absurd. Hebrews Chapter 6 is the PROOF TEXT for
OSAS = Once Saved, Always Saved.//

BobRyan said: //Both sides agree that Paul is not writing to people that have
back-slidden from Christianity and no longer read scripture
etc.Rather the READER is going to be some Christian
with a copy of the letter to the Hebrews - probably one who
is faithful. That is not the issue.//

Amen, Brother BobRyan -- PReach it!

The issue is "is OSAS God's truth or what?"
So the title of the Topic should Be:
Hebrews 6 proves OSAS.

Then do you agree with this?
If you were saved, really saved, and if you then
denounce your salvation, you can never get resaved.

I've been waiting for 21 years on the internet alone for
somone to tell me a 'Plan of Unsalvation'.
I see the book: "How to be Unborn-again".

As for the seeds parable of Jesus, none of the people got
saved saved the fruit producing ones.
Note Jesus does NOT have an example of a seed that sprouts,
produces fruit for 3 seasons then quits fruiting.

Nobody has even tryed to argue any argument against
my contention that Hebrews 6:4-6 is:

Reductio ad absurdum, n.
Latin. a reduction to an absurdity; the refutation of
a proposition by showing its logical conclusion as absurd.

Probably this is beause nobody knows about this form
of argument???

Nobody dared to debate my outline of Hebrews 6:4-20 in light
of what was said in Hebrews 6:1-3. (This quote contains
corrected scripture references:

 

Me4Him: //Ed, I would have to disagree that the BEMA
take place in heaven, here's why.//

I shall defuse your arguments one by one:

1. You quote a parable in luke 19:13+
Please do NOT base your doctrines on parables,
use parables to illustrate your doctrines

2. You err in thinking the 'servants' are 'saved'.
Everybody ends up being a servant of God, the ones
who do it willingly get rewarded, those who serve
Jesus unwillingly get punished.

3. I know some folk who spiritualize Revelation chapter 20
because of their misunderstanding of the parable
of the tares and the wheat found around Matthew 13:30.
It says the tares are gathered first, so they think
that evil persons are gathered before the saved persons.
That is the way you do it with real tares and wheat;
not with the symbolic tares = unrepentant, and wheat = the saved.

The first scene we see in heaven after the pretribulation
rapture is in Revelation 7 where the 144,000 Messanic are
rewarded by allowing to provide service to Jesus on the earth
during the tribulation period. Evidently they are
needed right away, so are rewarded early in the HEAVENLY
Bema Seat (Judgemene Seat) of Christ. This is a reward
ceremony, for these saints have their sins forgive (clothed
in white robes of righteousness) and have no OUTSTANDING
SIN for which to be punished.

The Bema Judgement comes before the Wedding,
After the Wedding, those who are rewarded by serving
in God's Army accompany Jeus to the Earth (Rev 19:14 probably)

 

WHOA!!!

The "RAPTURE" is a "REWARD", you have to be "ACCOUNTED WORTHY".

We're talking about the time when "EVERYONE" is gather to be Judged for "REWARDS", not a "Specific Group" at different times,

this only occurs "AFTER", the "END OF THE WORLD".

Mt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

The BEMA Judgment will include "all saved", the Trib saints as well as Church saints.

Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: (5/10 cities) and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

In the "rapture", the "WHEAT" is reaped by Jesus, the "Tares" remain on earth.

When Jesus returns, the "TARES" are reaped by Angels, Exact opposite of rapture, cast into hell until the GWT.

the "Wheat" (Raptured/trib saints) remains on earth to be "Rewarded" by entering the "Seventh day of rest" and "reigning" according to their "works". (BEMA)

It's only at Jesus's return, both church/Trib Saints are "together", and trib saints will also be "judged".

Having been "pre Judged" at the BEMA, the "Second Judgement" (GWT) has no power to judge these, only the "TARE" cast into hell are resurrected to stand "TRIAL".

The "WORKS" of the "unsaved" are not Judged until they are resurrected at the GWT.

Re 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.