Jerry Walls wicked and profane question about God..part2

Why waste my time? You’re set in your beliefs, so am I.

 

counter #36

 

Pass.

 

ok

 

They have already be found guilty in Adam though, as His fall was given and passed unto them by God Himself. So we are already born in a state of sin natured, and already guilty in Adam, that is why we must be born again.

 

Busy elsewhere, but would just state that we were already condemned as being found in Adam, and we partook of His sentence from God in the Fall. Born corrupted, and sin nature, and apart from God.

 

I have changed my mind. I have some time so I will respond to this post of yours.

So, you guys must think we whited out the verses such as John 3:16, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 Timothy 2:4, 1 Corinthians 5:19, 1 John 2:2. We look at the whole book, not such a verse hither and yon, and divorce it from its context. That's called eisegesis, where you put into the text what is not there. Yes, 'God so loved the world...' Yet, the word 'world' does not mean 'everybody whoever lived', but the encompassing globe. Look at these verses here...We give thanks to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and the love which you have for all the saints; because of the hope laid up for you in heaven, of which you previously heard in the word of truth, the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing, even as it has been doing in you also since the day you heard of it and understood the grace of God in truth;[Colossians 1:3-6] Now, this says all the world is constantly bearing fruit and increasing. Yet, when this was written, ppl living in South and North America, the Hawaiian Islands, Fiji, never heard this news, never had the gospel at the time, so in proper context, 'all the world' was those areas they had already covered from Jerusalem out. They had not made it to those area with the gospel, and it could not bear fruit and increase without having heard it.

Not talking about John Calvin...

Yet, in John 10, He said He laid His life down for the sheep. Ephesians 5:25 states He gave His life for the church.

Now, what does it mean for sins to be expiated? It means to remove the guilt of one's sins from them. Now, if Jesus expiated everybody w/o exception's sins, then everybody without exception is no longer guilty before God, and you just introduced universalism into this thread. There is no way one can hold to a universal atonement and deny universalism and remain constant in their theology.

Please leave Mr. Calvin out of this, as he is not the subject.

We never mentioned John Calvin, you did. Please, stay within the topic of this thread.[/I]

 

maybe you should have not responded as you said you would. I will only here respond to one of your answers, and show, like the greater majority of "Calvinists/Reformed", that either they don't understand what they believe or what the Bible teaches, and say things that they don't really know much about?

You speak of the "context" and use of the Greek noun, "κόσμος", when used in John 3:16, "when God so loved the κόσμος". You turn to some passages when it is used in a limited sense, and then try to force this use here in John 3:16. Did you know that the Greek "θεός ", is used for Almighty God, but also for humans, and the devil himself? Are we to suppose that it is always used for the devil in the NT? Likewise, your argument, that because "κόσμος" is used in a limited sense in the Greek, and English, in some places, that this can be transferred to John 3:16, is moot!

What you failed to do, is to show the Greek lexical evidence against understanding "κόσμος", to include the whole human race. I will supply this for you. You can then give your own evidence to counter what I say.

The use of "κόσμος" in John 3:16

"the inhabitants of the world, the human race, John 3:16" (J H Thayer, Greek Lexicon)

"the world for its inhabitants, mankind, Jo. iii.16" (Bloomfield, Greek Lexicon)

"the world, for the inhabitants of the earth, men, mankind, John 3.16" (Robinson, Greek Lexicon)

"the world, for the inhabitants of the earth, mankind, John 3.16" (Robson, Greek Lexicon)

"the world, i.e. the whole race of mankind, both believers and unbelievers, both good and bad, John iii.16, 17" (Parkhurst, Greek Lexicon)

"of all mankind, but especially of believers, as the object of God’s love J 3:16" (Arndt and Gingrich, Greek Lexicon)

"the inhabited world...the universe, Jn. 3:16-17" (Kittel, Theological Dictionary)

"the human race, mankind, John 3:16-17" (Vine, Expository Dictionary)

"the world of sinful humanity that opposes God, John 3:16" (Verbrugge, Theological Dictionary of NT Words)

It is very clear from this, that the use of "κόσμος" in John 3:16, is NOT done so in a limited sense, but to include the whole human race. Feel free to counter what evidence I have shown from leading Greek works, which are used by scholars and students as authorities all over the world

 

I notice that you failed to respond to #36?

 

Well, I approach study with God's attributes in mind. Seeing that he is so that by two unchangeable(immutable) things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have taken refuge would have strong encouragement to take hold of the hope set before us.[Hebrews 6:18] Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever[Hebrews 13:8] Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow.[James 1:17] this shows me He is the same now as He was before He said, "Let there be light."[Genesis 1:3] Now, if He loves everybody the same, even those who died, are dying now, and will die later, and He changes not, and His love is an everlasting love[Jeremiah 31:3], then He loves them that He will pour out His wrath on on the day of Judgment.

That goes against Paul's teaching in Romans 9. That goes against the prophecy of Genesis 3:15. In Romans 9, Paul wrote about vessels of mercy and vessels of wrath. These are never to be mingled. One does not go from a vessel of mercy to a vessel of wrath, just as the seed of the woman never becomes the seed of the serpent. The vessels of mercy represent the elect of God, and God endured with much patience the vessels of wrath so that He could extend mercy to the very last vessel of mercy. It says Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?[Romans 9:21] The vessels of mercy were taken from the samp lump that contained the vessels of wrath. This is God's electing love as the whole human race fell in Adam. All mankind was included in the clump. God took the vessels of mercy from this same lump that He left the vessels of wrath in.

So, if God loves everybody exactly the same, and He is immutable, and His love is everlasting, which is it?

A) He loves them He pours His wrath upon on the day of Judgment?
B) He then goes from loving them to pouring His wrath on Him, which, in turn, makes Him mutable?

 

The point I am making is that if God loves everybody the same, then there is no special love for His children. He loves Apostle Paul every bit as much as Adolf Hitler in your view. There is no special love for Paul, you, I, Iconoclast, TCassidy, Benjamin, Van, ITL, 1689Dave, KYR, EW&F, rockytopva, &c.

And we know God does not change, so then, by using your theology, God loves even those He will cast headlong into hell. I want no part of that love.

 

I see that your response has more to do with your "theology", than what the Bible as a whole actually teaches.

Let us take a closer loom at John 3:16-18, and see what the Apostle John is saying.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God"

I would be interested to know your thoughts on the following passages from the OT and NT.

"Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?" (Ezekiel 18:23)

"And should not I pity Nineveh, that great city, in which there are more than 120,000 persons who do not know their right hand from their left, and also much cattle?” (Jonah 4:11)

"He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." (1 John 2:2)

"But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction" (2 Peter 2:1)

"The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,anot wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance" (2 Peter 3:9)

"The Spirit and the Bride say, “Come.” And let the one who hears say, “Come.” And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price." (Revelation 22:17)

 

Yet, in the world, there are ppl God hates. Psalm 5:5 says He hates all them that do iniquity. Then in Proverbs 6:16-19 there are seven things God hates, and He calls them an abomination, haughty eyes, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that run rapidly to evil, a false witness who utters lies, and one who spreads strife among brothers. Those last two speak directly to man and not just the sin. God hates those ppl who utter lies and spread strife.

God is not some tyrant that gets a kick out of sending ppl to hell. Yet, in His righteousness, sin can not go unpunished. I love have the late R.C. Sproul put it. A judge has his son before him, guilty of a crime. As a judge, he has to uphold it, so he renders his sentence through tears. God does not delight in sending them to hell, but He is a righteous Judge, and has to carry out the sentence.

God showing that city, that ~ 100 years later He destroyed. But this goes with Romans 9:15 in that He will have mercy upon He will have mercy.

Propitiate means to appease, satisfy, placate, pacify, satiate. Now, if God's wrath was appeased, satisfied, placated, pacified, satiated for everybody without exception, then there is no wrath to be meted out on the day of Judgment.

Apostle Paul tells the Corinthian church in 1 Corinthians 6:20 and 1 Corinthians 7:23 they were bought with a price. Now, if these false prophets were bought in the same manner, they too would be saved. It's like the Passover lamb in Exodus 12. It bought them all out of Egypt, but it did not purchase their salvation.

Look at what I bolded. The context is to believers. He is not wishing any of them perish.

Whoever truly comes to the Christ will drink and whoever does not come, will not drink.

 

@Saved-By-Grace....

Let's look at another verse....


namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.[2 Corinthians 5:19]

On the surface, it looks like you've won the debate. God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself. However, there is a 500 lb gorilla that needs addressed in that verse. Those who are in the world being reconciled, these ppl are not having their sins counted against them. So, world does not mean 'everybody without exception'.

To be reconciled means that two enemies become friends. Yet, many die as God's enemy. Again, world does not mean 'everybody without exception'.

 

have you ever read verses like Psalm 106:40, which speaks of the people of Israel, the apple of God's eye, and His own chosen people from all the nations of the whole world? See what the Lord says in this verse:

"Therefore was the wrath of the LORD kindled against His people, insomuch that He abhorred His own inheritance"

The Hebrew verb תַּעָב used here is very strong, it denotes "a detesting, a loathing"; which is much stronger than the Hebrew verb שָׂנֵא‎ , which is used for Esau in Malachi 1:3. What does this tell you of the love of God for His very own people? Do you suppose that this is true today?

you fail to understand the Book of Jonah. Did you know that the Ninevites were a very wicked people, of whom the Jews were afraid because of the violence with which they treated their enemies? Read ancient history to get a better understanding of this. Have you ever considered why God would want to send His Prophet Jonah to these wicked people? Jonah ran away from his commission, because as we read in his own account, he did not want the Lord to save them. As a Prophet of God, surely this would not be the normal thing to do, as they were in the world to proclaim the salvation of the Lord God for lost sinners. He feared for his own life from these people, who God wanted to hear the Message of salvation, and that they also had the opportunity to "repent and believe". We read at the end of chapter 3, that all of the people, from the King to the lowest, truly cried out to the Lord for His Mercy in repentance. We read in verse 10, "And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not". Notice how it says, that "God saw their WORKS" not that they in any way "earned" His forgiveness, BUT, "that they TURNED FORM THEIR EVIL WAY", which is true repentance, and something that they DID. True salvation requires true REPENTANCE as well as FAITH, which is what Jesus taught in Mark 1:15.

You have taken the common use of the Greek "ἱλασμός", which does include "to propitiate". However, its use in the Greek Old Testament and in the New, has the meaning "sin-offering", "expiatory sacrifice", which is what the Greek lexicons rightly tell us. The Reformed commentary of Jamieson, Fausset and Brown, is interesting here, and they cannot be accused of any ant Calvinistic bias,

"Also for the sins of the whole world. Christ's advocacy is limited to believers (1Jn_2:1; 1Jn_1:7): His propitiation extends as widely as sin: note, 2Pe_2:1, "the whole world" cannot be restricted to the believing portion (cf. 1Jn_4:14 and 1Jn_5:19). 'Thou, too, art part of the world: thine heart cannot think, The Lord died for Peter and Paul, but not for me' (Luther). "

The same Greek verb, "ἀγοράζω" is used for the purchase of heretics who will not be in heaven, as we have in 2 Peter 2:1; and true believers in 1 Corinthians 6:20 and 1 Corinthians 7:23, and Revelation 5:9. The fact that Jesus died for these, as He also did for Judas, whom He told with the other 11, that He blood was to be shed for them ALL (see Luke 22 account of the Lord's supper. A fact that even Calvin admits in his comments on Mark 14:24), does not mean that ALL will be saved, as their salvation is conditional on their "repenting and believing". 1 Timothy 2:1-6 is very clear that God does not want any to be lost, but desires their salvation, where in verse 6 Paul speaks of Jesus being the "ἀντίλυτρον", for the ALL including ALL kings and ALL in authority, which ALL surely cannot be "elect"!

In 2 Peter chapter three Peter says, "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts" (verse 3), and goes on to say, "For this they willingly are ignorant" (verse 5), They being the scoffers. And verse 9 includes these scoffers, with whom God is not willing that they perish. Interesting here is the textual variant reading. Instead of "us", of the KJV, which would be limited to Peter and the believers he was writing to, we have the reading, "you", which has the better and older textual evidence, this is used because not only does it include Peter and the believers he is writing to, but also the "scoffers" who he is writing against! There is not other way to explain why the original "you", was changed to "us", no doubt done by those who wanted to limit what Peter was saying!

 

Yet, not all of Israel is Israel. As Paul wrote But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; Not every Israelite was of Israel. It was the remnant that made up the true Jew. It was those who had not just the circumcision of the foreskin(which was done to every male), but also had the circumcision of the heart.

Again, His wrath was poured out on those who rebelled and/or rejected Him. Those who did so, He meted out wrath unto them. But those Jews who truly believed and obeyed Him, He never poured out His wrath on them.

But God does not elect someone based upon who they are or what they did, but based this solely upon Himself when He elected them. Look at what He told Israel “The LORD did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any of the peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but because the LORD loved you and kept the oath which He swore to your forefathers, the LORD brought you out by a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.[Deuteronomy 7:7,8] God loves us just because He is love. There is nothing in us that is any better than the non-elect. We were just as much lost as they were. God chose us because He chose to choose us. That's the way it was with those Ninevahites. Look at Saul of Tarsus. If anyone should have went to hell, it was him. Yet, God had mercy upon him.[Romans 9:15]

Well, when I see the word 'bought', I see it in a redemptive sense, much like a master purchasing a slave. That is what the Christ did for us, He redeemed us(bought us back) via His cross work. Now, if those false prophets were bought in the same sense, then, imo, it seems to me they would be saved.

I will not try to debate you about Greek, as the little I have learned, I have done through a series by Dr. Bill Mounce. My wife had eye trouble back in February, and then had to have retinal reattachment surgery in March, so I haven't pick that back up yet. I hope to soon, though.

But it seems to me that if the Christ bought someone, then they will be saved. If He satisfied God's wrath for every person, which is what propitiation means, then He has no more wrath over the vessels of His wrath in Romans 9.

 

Jesus Christ came into this world to "save sinners", and NOT animals! Look at the complete context here. Christians are call on to take God Message of "Reconciliation" to the whole world, and not to limit this in any sense. Would you agree, that if someone is "the elect" of God, who have been chosen by God before the foundation of the world to be saved in Jesus Christ, that these WILL be saved? God WILL save His elect. Right? This makes it easier to understand the language of 2 Corinthians 5, where Paul is speaking of God "reconciling the world to Himself". Notice how Paul uses the Greek word, "δέομαι", here, which means, "to beg, plead, entreat". WHY would God need to do this, IF this was directed only at "the elect", as they WILL come to Him, because they have already been elected? It ONLY makes any sense, if the urgent plea to be reconciled was direct to the entire human race.

The words of Robert Dabney, a solid Calvinist, are important on this passage. "In 2 Cor. 5:15, if we make the all for whom Christ died, mean only the all that live unto Him-, i.e., the elect - it would seem to be implied that of those elect for whom Christ died, only a part will live to Christ" (Systematic Theology, p. 525)

 

I really don't the the point in continuing our discussions, as it is very clear that you have a "theological" response to everything that I say, regardless of whether it is right or not! I wish you well, but will not respond any longer on this.