Seventh-Day Adventism

I am not the one that uses the term sleep in 1Cor 15 and in 1Thess 4 and in John 11. It is Christ and Paul - not me.

I am not the one that made the MAtt 21 argument for the case of the state of the dead and the fact that only the resurreciton solves the problem -- Christ did, not me. In fact he makes the point so crystal clear that even Jewish die-hard opponants "get it". He states clearly in Matt 21 that only the resurrection would allow God to say of Abraham "I AM the God of Abraham" after Abraham had died. Such an iron clad argument is made by Christ in this case - that those who rejection resurrection entirely are silenced by the argument!

I do not deny that the Holy Spirit is immortal, eternal and everlasting. But humans are always said to be 'mortal' as Paul points out in 1Cor 15 and in 2Cor 5.

Your point that we are immortal souls (something never found in all of scripture) so God is "stuck with us" and we can not lose salvation is a problem on three counts.

#1. We are never said to be immortal prior to the resurrection.

#2. In Matt 18 we see "forgiveness revoked" described as crystal clear as we might ever hope to see it.

#3. Romans 11 we are told to "fear" for "IF God did not spare them neither will He spare you" speaking of the fact that we stand IN the vine of Christ - only by faith! All the arguments for perseverance use this logic!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hebrews 3:16-19
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcasses fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom swore he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

What does this have to do with worshipping on Sunday? The Israelites were not allowed to enter into the promised land because they refused to go up to fight the giants when they were told to, because of unbelief.

The 'rest' that Paul is speaking of that remains is the millennial rest, the seventh thousand year 'day' of history. (2Peter 3:8) We are to labour to enter into that millennialrest, by conquering the giants of sin in our lives. There still remaineth a rest to the people of God, the sabbath was only a shadow of the true rest that was to come.

 

BTW - there are two immediate blessings from accepting the Bible view of the saints who "fall asleep in Christ" as Paul says --

#1. There could never be so much flocking to "hear the dead speak" as we see in Marian apparations, no "praying to the dead" and no seeking mediums to speak to the dead.

#2. When a mother loses an infant it is a sad day. When a Christian mother loses an infant she knows she will see the child again in heaven but supposes that this child will grow up (in some way) without her - in heaven while waiting to be united. She is deprived of the joy of raising the child, teaching them their first word, seeing their first baby step, playing catch with them in the yard etc. All that is lost without accepting this Bible statement on sleep-in-death. (as we see in 1Cor 11, 15, 1Thess 4, John 11 etc)

With the Bible view - of "sleep" you now have that mother re-united with her infant at the resurrection. Instead of raising the child in this mortal, frail, sinful, dangerous world - she will do all those same things with the child in a perfect, sinless, peaceful heaven.

Imagine teaching the first Bible lesson to that child - about the Gospel and what Christ has done for you and for them!

The "Good news" of the TRuth as it is in Christ - is unspeakably good news even in such a tragic case as the loss of a child! How sad that many parents would become discouraged over that loss and give up on the only avenue that exists to be re-united with their loved one EXACTLY at the moment of loss!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

In 1Cor 15 the statement is made "THIS mortal must put on immortality" showing that we are mortal not immortal.

In 2Cor 5 the statement is made that in this life we live an earthly tent that is being torn down. Only in the next life do we see 2Cor 5 showing us to be either "eternal" or "immortal" --We are not described as immortal in this life - but rather decaying.

We are promised eternal life "in the age to come" -

The same point is made in Luke 18:30.

In Eph 2 we are said to already be in heaven with Christ seated with HIM on His throne

But in 2Cor 5 we discover that in fact we are still here - on earth, "We walk by faith not by sight" and in a decaying tent.

In Phil 1 we find that it is in the next life that we are "with Christ" not this one.

Eph 2 is a future view - a promise claimed by faith.

In Rev 20:4 we see that promise fulfilled and the saints seated with Christ at the "First Resurrection".

In 1Cor 15 Paul makes the point that if the reward is "in this life" then we are of all mankind "most miserable" most to be pitied for in this life we do "not receive" what was promised by way of that "eternal life" which is in Christ and causes us to get the "eternal body" made in heaven --

Even 2Cor 5 makes it clear that while we are in this body we are "absent from the Lord"

This does not mean that we are not "by faith" viewed as having already received promises - seated with Christ in heaven on His throne.

 

James-Newman said:the sabbath was only a shadow of the true rest that was to come.
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Yes that is correct and we are to observe the Sabbath until we are taken to the heavenly.

the rest to come is in heaven, not on sunday.

Tam

 

Genesis 2 1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. 2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

According to the verses above, the God who created this world, and everything in it, also blessed, and sanctified the seventh day, when he was finished creating. During the act of creation, when God spoke, the thing was done. Thus this world exists, and we, and all other living things have life. So also, the Lord blessed, and sanctified the seventh day at creation. He spoke, and the thing was done. From that time forward, the seventh day has been a holy day. These things were established at creation, and have not been undone. One may choose not to believe that God created the world, but this does not change the fact that he did. One may also believe that the seventh day is not a holy day, but this does not change the fact that God has made it so.

Exodus 20 8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The fourth commandment is a reminder to the children of Israel, not to forget the day which God made holy at creation. Thus it says " Remember the sabbath day". It is a memorial of the gift of life from God to this entire world. One of it's purposes, is to remind us of who we are in relation to God. That we owe our all to Him.

John 1 1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2The same was in the beginning with God. 3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.................................
14And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus Christ is the God who created this world, and everything in it. He is the God who instituted the Sabbath at creation. This holy day was made thus by Him, for us. To disregard it, is to disregard Him.

Genesis 1 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

We were created in the image of God, and therefore in the image of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is that part of the Godhead, that created this world. Though, to be like the Son, is to be like the Father, and the Holy Spirit, for they are one. No one can separate them. Only for our salvation were they ever separated. It was for us, that the Son left the Father, and that the Father turned His back on the Son. Because of our sin, they were separated.

Colossians 1 12Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light: 13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 19For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Again, Jesus Christ created, and sustains all things. In Him all things consist, and come together, that is, are reconciled. He is before all things, and in Him, all the fullness of God dwells. Not only did He create all things, but after the fall of humanity, it was through Him that all were reconciled. If only they would care to accept this gift. Now our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is not only the one responsible for the creation of the world, but also for our recreation as new creatures in Christ Jesus. Through all of this, the seventh day remains the day which He blessed, and sanctified. Only now, it is not just a memorial of the creation of this world, but also of the creation of new creatures in Christ Jesus, unto salvation. He is not only our creator, but is our Lord and Savior, who has transformed us from created beings fallen into rebellion, into the literal sons, and daughters of God. Praise be His name.

Therefore do I rest in His works, and strive to ever cease from my own. I do partake of His Sabbath rest, not only on the day that He blessed and sanctified, but moreover, in Him who blessed and sanctified it. For only God can bless, and sanctify anything, let alone, a sinner such as myself. Therefore, I gladly obey His command concerning this day which He has sanctified, as a sign that it is He alone that sanctifies the sinner. For Christ in you, is the hope of glory.

Hebrews 4 1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. 2For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. 3For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. 4For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. 5And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. 6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: 7Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. 8For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The seventh day Sabbath is a sign of the rest spoken of in the above verses. It is observed strictly by faith in the word of God. It was put forth by God himself, as a sign, that He is the one who sanctifies. It is a symbol of entering into God's rest, and allowing His works to be performed within you. A sign that you have accepted His authority, and method of salvation.

The Sunday Sabbath is a sign of just the opposite. It cannot be observed by faith in God's word, for there is no command concerning it. It has not been put forth by God as a sign for anything, but rather by the Church of Rome, as a sign of her authority. It represents a lack of faith in God's word, in favor of a faith in the traditions of man. It represents a faith in the method of salvation which the Church of Rome promulgates, over that which the scriptures testify to. It represents the way of Cain, over the way of Abel. For though they both brought a sacrifice, only Abel's was by faith, and in accordance with God's command. Before it is over, all will choose. Is the word of God the authority whom you obey, or the Church of Rome?

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

The following verses indicate that the dead have no thoughts, they are in a state similar to sleep.


Eccl 9:5-6 "5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."
Eccl 9:10 "10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest."

Ps 115:17 "17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence."


Surely if the dead were conscious, and in heaven they would be praising God.


Ps 146:3-4 "3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."


1Thes 4:13-17 "13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."


The point of the above verses is that without the resurrection there is no hope for those who have fallen asleep, or died in Christ. They will receive their reward of eternal life, when the Lord returns, as the next verse indicates.


John 6:39-40 "39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day."


1 Cor 15:51-54 "51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."


Those who are in Christ will receive immortality at His second coming, at the last trump, not at their death.


Luke 8:52-55 52 And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but
sleepeth.
53 And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead.
54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.


John 11:11-14 11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus
sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.(KJV)
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.


Jesus referred to the dead as sleeping, because the dead are referred to as sleeping all through the scriptures.


Ps 13:3 3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;


IKing 2:10-11 10 So David slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David.
11 And the days that David reigned over Israel were forty years: seven years reigned he in Hebron, and thirty and three years reigned he in Jerusalem.


IKing 11:43 43 And Solomon slept with his fathers, and was buried in the city of David his father: and Rehoboam his son reigned in his stead.


IKing 14:20 20 And the days which Jeroboam reigned were two and twenty years: and he slept with his fathers, and Nadab his son reigned in his stead.


IKing 14:31 31 And Rehoboam slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And his mother's name was Naamah an Ammonitess. And Abijam his son reigned in his stead.


IKing 15:8 8And Abijam slept with his fathers; and they buried him in the city of David: and Asa his son reigned in his stead.


2 Chr 21:1 1Now Jehoshaphat slept with his fathers, and was buried with his fathers in the city of David. And Jehoram his son reigned in his stead.


2 Chr 26:23 23 So Uzziah slept with his fathers, and they buried him with his fathers in the field of the burial which belonged to the kings; for they said, He is a leper: and Jotham his son reigned in his stead.


Job 7:21 21And why dost thou not pardon my transgression, and take away mine iniquity? for now shall I sleep in the dust; and thou shalt seek me in the morning, but I shall not be.


Job 14:10-12 10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Job 19 23 Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book! 24That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever! 25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: 26And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: 27Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.


Dan 12:2 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Matt 27:52-53 52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


Acts 7:59-60 59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


2 Pet 3:4 4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep,all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.


Acts 2:29-36 29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

If the dead go straight to heaven or hell at death, then why hadn't David ascended to heaven yet at the time of Christ?

Here are some verses about the wicked perishing. That is coming to a complete end, a state of none existence.

Ps 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

Ps 68:1-3 1 Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him.
2 As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
3 But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.


Ps 73:27 27 For, lo, they that are far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed all them that go a whoring from thee.


Ps 112:10 10 The wicked shall see it, and be grieved; he shall gnash with his teeth, and melt away: the desire of the wicked shall perish.


Isa 41:11-12 11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish.
12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee:they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.


John 3:14-18 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


John 10:28 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


1 Cor 1:17-18 17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.


II Th 2:10-12 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


2 Pet 2:12 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Pet 3:9-12 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?


Jude 1:7 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

As the above verse indicates, the result of eternal fire is annihilation. Sodom and Gomorrha suffered the vengeance of eternal fire, and they were totally consumed, they no longer exist.

Mal 4:1-6 1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.


Ezek 28:11-22 11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.
13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

The above prophecy is concerning Satan. It addresses his creation, his former position, and the fact that he was created perfect. It also points out his fall, the reason for it, and the end results of it. Satan will be destroyed. He will be devoured, and brought to ashes in the sight of men. The prophecy ends with these words concerning Satan, " never shalt thou be any more." This is unquestionably pointing out a complete end for Satan.

Rev 21:4 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

How can these things have passed away, if there are billions of people in hell experiencing these very things?

I Jn 5:11-12 11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

The above verse is the bottom line. He who has the Son has life, He who does not have the Son does not have life. Those who reject Christ will perish. The final judgment is by fire, and it's effects will be eternal non existence.


2 Pet 3:4-7 4And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.


2 Pet 3:10-12 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Kieth

 

Sunday is just the day that we have set aside for worship, the first day of the week, the Lord's day, when He rose from the grave. We are giving the firstfruit of our time to God when we meet on the first day of the week. We are not keeping the Sabbath on Sunday. We are not keeping the Sabbath at all, and I doubt you are either.

Exodus 20:8-10
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exodus 35:2-3
2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.
3 Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.

If you do any work on the Sabbath, you are not keeping it. If you light a fire on the Sabbath, you are not keeping it. You should be put to death.

While I generally abbhor the words 'that was for the Jews', there is some truth to the fact that some ordinances were not meant to continue into the Christian church age. We know that the ordinance of circumcision is passed away, why do we not have to be circumcised to show that we have accepted His authority and method of salvation?

Genesis 17:10-14
10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.
11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.
12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.
13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

This is almost identical to the language the Lord used in regard to the sabbath.

Exodus 31:16
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

If the everlasting covenant of circumcision can be set aside in the new covenant, by what reason should I believe that we are still bound to keep the sabbath, especially in light of these verses?

Romans 14:5-6
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Colossians 2:16-17
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Gentile believers were never commanded to keep the sabbath any more than they were commanded to keep circumcision.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

It seems that the disciples gathered together on the first day of the week, not the sabbath. Rather, it seems that Paul took the opportunity to witness to the Jews in the synagogues when they were gathered on the sabbath.

Look again at Paul's words in Hebrews:
Hebrews 4:9-11
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The rest is still to come, the evidence that you are not in this rest is that you are still working. If you had entered into the rest you would have ceased from your works, but we are to, say it with me, labour to enter into that rest. If you rest now, you will not enter into the rest then. We should rest on Christ's finished work for our eternal salvation, but the millennial rest is a reward for faithful service to Him in this life and we are to strive for it, not rest for it. If you believe that going to church on Saturday is pleasing to the Lord, by all means follow your conscience. But keeping all the carnal ordinances in the world will not please God if we ignore the weightier matters of the law.

Matthew 23:23-24
23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Matthew 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven. (<-- thats the rest)

 

Hello James. You said the following-

Yes, I do keep the Sabbath. I keep it according to my perfect example in all things, the Lord Jesus Christ himself. He is the one who created it, who spoke it to Israel in words like peals of thunder from the mount, and wrote it in tables of stone with His own finger. Finally, when He came here as a man, one of us, to show us how to live, He kept it then also. He not only kept it as one of us, but He spent more than just a little time teaching its correct observance. Why would He waste time teaching people how to properly observe a commandment that He was just about to do away with?

Matthew 5 17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Christ told us when He was here, that He did not come to change any of the law. Anyone who breaks even the least of the commandments, and teaches other to do so, will be called the least in the kingdom of heaven. This will of course include the fourth commandment. Why would He tell people this, if He knew good and well, that He was about to change the fourth commandment? You used verse twenty of the above verses to support your argument. You ripped this verse completely out of its context in order to use it to support your argument. Its meaning is basically exactly the opposite of what you used it for.

Matthew 24 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened.

Christ also refers to the Sabbath being kept, right near the end of time. The above prophecy is pertaining to the time, shortly before Christ returns. Again, why would Christ speak such a prophecy, mentioning the Sabbath right in the middle of the prophecy, knowing that the Sabbath would not be observed at the time mentioned? Or do you think that Christ did not know these things? Nonsense, He did know. He knew that most of humanity would reject His authority by rejecting one or more of his commandments. He even knew that it would be the Sabbath commandment, being the reason He mentions it in the above prophecy.

Your point about circumcision is moot. There were many laws given to the nation of Israel, but there is only one law that God spoke Himself to them, and wrote Himself with His own finger in stone. God Himself has made the distinction. The ten commandments will never change till heaven and earth pass.

The matter of circumcision was clearly addressed by the apostles, and done away with.

1 Corinthians 7 17But as God hath distributed to every man, as the Lord hath called every one, so let him walk. And so ordain I in all churches. 18Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised. 19Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.20Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Galatians 5 6For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Galatians 6 14But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.


Colossians 2 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Colossians 3 8But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. 9Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: 11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

The new testament is filled with changes that took place regarding the various laws given to Israel, but none in regards to the ten commandments themselves. The only change referred to regarding them, is that the keeping of them is not a means of righteousness, but rather the result of Christ’s righteousness in you, by faith. This does not annul any of the ten commandments, but rather establishes them.

WRONG.

Hebrews 4 3For we which have believed do enter into rest,…………………………
6Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:……………………………….
9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his………………………
11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

The word do in verse three, is present tense. Those who do believe God’s word, have already entered into His rest. The rest is obtained by faith. It was because of unbelief that the children of Israel did not enter into His rest. Ceasing from your own labors, or works, and allowing the works of God to be performed within you buy faith, is entering into God’s rest. It will also result in our salvation, the completion of our rest in Christ. Those who will not believe God’s word, cannot enter into His rest. If you believe that the ten commandments have changed, then you do not believe the words of Christ Himself, who is the WORD OF GOD, and you cannot enter into His rest.

Matthew 11 27All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. 28Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

The seventh day Sabbath is a sign that those who observe it have entered into this rest. It is kept solely by faith in God’s word. Though it can be kept for the wrong reason, and many probably do, it cannot be ignored for a right reason.

The Sabbath is not mentioned at all in Romans 14. The debate is about certain days, and foods which are eaten. There is no question but that this debate was about some of the various other laws of Israel, ceremonial, dietary, and civil, not any of the ten commandments. Of course if someone just doesn’t want to keep the fourth commandment, they could make this about the Sabbath as an excuse.
Colossians 2 is more of the same. The Sabbath days mentioned are those in connection with the ceremonial laws (Lev. 16:29-34, 23:23-32&39).

Keeping the seventh day Sabbath is keeping the fourth commandment. All are admonished to keep the commandments of God by Christ Himself, and all of His apostles.
Rom 2:13-15 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God,but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Rom 3:31 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Rom 7:14 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:3-4 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 13:8 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:10 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14-18 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


Rom. 6 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

James 1:25 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

James 2 8If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. 12So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.

Matt 19:17 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Matt 22:37-40 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

John 14:15 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

John 14:21 21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:10-11 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full.

1 Cor 7:19 19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

I Jn 2:3-4 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

I Jn 3:22-24 22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

I Jn 5:2-3 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

II Jn 1:5-6 5 And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another.
6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

Rev 12:17 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 14:12 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rev 22:14 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

So much for not being told to keep the law.

Acts 20:7 is no proof that the apostles worshipped on Sundays. The Jews reckoned a day from sunset to sunset. When the sun went down on the seventh day, it then became the first day. Paul preached until midnight of what we reckon as Saturday. Since he was leaving the next day, which we would reckon as Sunday.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

Hi Ray Berrian. This is what most of us have been taught, but it appears it may not be totally exact.


Paul use the term "dead in Christ" and "asleep in Jesus"? (1Thes. 4:13-16).


"....the DEAD IN CHRIST shall rise first: Then we who are ALIVE......." - 1Thes.
4:16-17.


Paul is making a distinction:

DEAD Christians vs LIVING Christians


Dan.
12:2
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Looks like the mainstream preachers are wrong on this one.

 

#1. Even R.C Sproul admits that when OT laws are based in Creation commands/covenants they are eternally binding.

#2. Isaiah 66 tells us that in the new heavens and new earth "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL mankind come before Me to worship".

That is not said of "circumcision" nor do we find circumcision in the 7 days of Creation.

This one is "easy".

In Christ,

Bob

 

True enough! (Mostly. The exception is that the Bible never calls Sunday "the Lord's Day")

I wonder how many people here would agree with that. I suspect most - but still I wonder.

In Christ,

Bob

 

You may recall that Paul wrote to the Galatians about the error of believing that circumcision was essential to be saved. In a sense this is like the SDAs; they believe that keeping the Sabbath is essential for salvation, however, it should be said that a goo number of them are better than their theology and are probably saved.

Kind regards to all.

Bob

 

Robert J Hutton

I for one don't think keeping the Sabbath saves me, any more than keeping Sunday saves you.


Do you think keeping Sunday saves you. Of course not.

Why would you think that of Sabbath keepers?


Jesus Himself said the Sabbath day was made for human beings, people every where (Mark 2:27-28).


Mark 2:27 -- The New Living Translation

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made to benefit people, and not people to benefit the Sabbath.


(New Revised Standard Version)

Then he said to them, "The sabbath was made for humankind, and not humankind for the sabbath;


Gentiles could always keep God's Sabbath, when they "joined themselves to the Lord" (Isa 56:1-7 / 1Cor. 6:17 / Zechariah 2:11 / Jer. 50:5).


All human flesh will continue keeping the Sabbath in the Millenium (Isa 66:23)

 

Hi - Rober J Hutton.

circumcision didn't / doesn't save anyone, but it also was NOT outlawed.

 

http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/sabbath_to_sunday/8.html


FROM SABBATH TO SUNDAY:
A HISTORICAL INVESTIGATION OF THE RISE OF SUNDAY OBSERVANCE IN EARLY CHRISTIANITY

 

There were two Jewish practices that particularly identified the Jews in the first century: The Sabbath and circumcision.


And circumcision became a major bone of contention while the Sabbath did not. This is what makes the silence regarding the Sabbath so significant. When a major change was contemplated, it made waves.


There were some Pharisees who had come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah (acts 15:5).


Now can you imagine this group of people not being Sabbath keepers as well? It is inconceivable.

Why, then, was the Sabbath not an issue while circumcision was? The answer is simple enough. There was nothing in Paul's work with the Gentiles to change anything regarding the Sabbath.


The Pharisees rightly saw circumcision as a matter of national identity. But they assumed that God was only the God of the nation of Israel. To serve God, you had to join the tribe by being circumcised.

But there was a fundamental difference between circumcision and Sabbath observance. Circumcision identified the Jews. The Sabbath identified God.

This is a major point of confusion among many people to this day.


http://www.abcog.org/ntsab.htm

 

Indeed. This was also pointed out in Acts 15 by the Jerusalem council of the Jewish leadership in the Christian church.

Circumcision was never "essential to salvation" particularly for Gentiles!

You missed the point. The only reason Christ the Creator's Sabbath memorial (of His creative act in manking mankind ) has any meaning at all - is that HIS WORD has authority and HE is God. He has "made us and not we ourselves". HE has determined that "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to Worship" EVEN in the New Heavens and New Earth (Isaiah 66).

SDA's do not try to "Second Guess" Christ the Creator as to "why" He chooses to make the Ten Commandments OR why He chooses to have His own Memorial of HIS Creative act in making us.

We accept the statement of Paul in the NT "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God for forbid! In fact we Establish the Law of God"Rom 3:31

Christ our Creator and Savior said in John 14 "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments"

SDA's choose not to "edit" His word so that it becomes "IF you Love Me rebel against My Commandments".

In fact -- I would hope that nobody here would try to champion such a course of action and then defend it in the form "To OBEY the Creator's Commandments is to reject the Gospel".

Surely we can agree on that.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The keeping of the sabbath is to put ourselves back under the law, and we are not under the law but under Grace. The lord's day (the 1st day of the week in the week in the NT) is not the Sabbath.

Kind regards to all.

Bob

 

If keeping the fourth commandment means that the one who does so is under the law, wouldn’t that mean that keeping any of the commandments means that you are under the law? Should we then lie, cheat , steal, commit adultery, covet, worship idols, and take the name of the Lord in vain, so that no one will think that we are under the law? Shall we do evil, that good may come?

8 And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness:
15 Their feet are swift to shed blood:
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways:
17 And the way of peace have they not known:
18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

The law of God was never meant as a means of righteousness, or salvation, but rather that it should point the sinner to both. The Lord Jesus Christ of course, being that which they point to for the salvation of the soul, and the fulfillment of righteousness within the believer. Christ did fulfill the law. Those therefore who believe in Him, and have accepted His presents in their hearts, through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, also have the law fulfilled within them. This is not a means of righteousness or salvation, but rather as a result of being in Christ Jesus, in whom all things are made complete.

Rom 2:13-15 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another


Rom 7:14 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Rom 8:3-4 3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law is spiritual. Those who walk in the spirit, have the righteousness of the law fulfilled within them. This is not in order to be saved, but rather because they have already been saved by faith in Christ.

Rom 13:8 8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Love is the fulfillment of the law. You cannot fulfill a law that no longer exists.


Gal 5:14-18 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Those who walk in the spirit, are not under the law. This is because, as has already been pointed out, the law is spiritual. Those who are walking in the spirit have the law fulfilled within them, instead of the works of the flesh, or carnal nature. If you are in Christ, by faith, then you have died with Him. If you have died with Him, then the penalty of the law is no longer over you, for the penalty is death, and you have already died in Christ. This having been accomplished by Christ's death on the cross, and your faith in that act, you now walk in newness of life. It is no longer you, but Christ that lives in you. This is the fulfillment of the law within the heart. Paul explains this very clearly in the next verses.

CHAPTER 6
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

PRAISE GOD! we have been freed from the penalty of sin, which is death, and given the power from God to live a life of righteousness, that is the righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ.

James 1:25 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.


Christians should not keep the commandments in order to be saved, but rather because they are saved. You tell me that if I keep the fourth commandment that I am under the law. Not so, but I tell you the truth, that if you do not keep, any of God’s commandments, including the fourth, you are under the law. I am following the example of my Lord and savior Jesus Christ by keeping the fourth commandment, as he did when here on earth as our example in all things.

Galatians 4 4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

It is by disobeying God’s commandments that one is brought under the law, not by obeying them. Christ came to redeem them that were under the law. The only time there is enmity between the law and those which it governs, is when the law is broken. For example, if I am driving down the road at 55 MPH, and that is the posted speed limit, then there is no enmity between me and the law. However, if I increase my speed to 70 MPH, then there is enmity between me and the law. I am at that time under the law, it is against me because I have broken it. If I am caught, there is only one way for me to get out of the situation, that is by paying the penalty that the law demands. The enmity between me and the law which has been broken will continue to exist until I pay the penalty which the law demands. Once the penalty is paid, the enmity is no longer applicable.

Paying the penalty of the law, does not change the law, but rather my standing in relation to the law. The law still exists, but I am no longer under it, that is to say the enmity between us is gone. This is what Christ accomplished on the cross. He abolished the enmity between the sinner, and the law, not the law itself.

Eph 2:15-16 "15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:"

Heb 2:16-18 "16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. 17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. 18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Christ came to earth and became one of us. He took upon Himself our sinful nature and flesh. In our flesh, he lived a life of perfect obedience to his Father. This life of obedience lead him directly to the cross, and those who desire to follow him will be lead to the same place. Christ was obedient unto death.

Phil 2:7-8 "7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross."

Those who are in Christ, have been baptized into his death. Being dead in Christ they are free from the penalty of the law. In Christ, the penalty of the law has been paid for all of us. Those who choose to be in Him, no longer suffer the enmity that exists between sinners and the law, for that penalty has been paid. They are now to walk in newness of life, and are new creatures in Christ Jesus. This is not so they can continue to live in sin, but rather that they might live as unto God ( Rom. 6:3-13 ). I am not under the law for believing in, and keeping the fourth commandment. It is those who reject the law of God, and willingly disobey it, that are under the law. It is not possible for someone to be forgiven for a sin that they will not acknowledge as such, and therefore never ask forgiveness for it.

If I told you that I didn’t worship idols, or take the Lord’s name in vain, or bow down to and worship some image, or murder, or lie, or steal, or commit adultery, or covet, and that I honored my father and mother, would you tell me that I was under the law for doing so? Surely, you would not. Neither am I under the law for obeying the fourth commandment. On the contrary, it is the one who willfully disobeys the law that is under the law. You have no problem with anyone keeping any of the other nine commandments, you have just chosen to reject the fourth, therefore you bring this accusation upon those who observe it. I cast this accusation back upon you. You are the one who has rejected God’s authority, by rejecting one of His commandments. All those who do so, are under the law.

I say none of this by way of condemnation, for who am I, but a sinner just like you. Just because I am a sinner though, doesn't mean that I have to call sin righteousness, and righteousness sin. Those who do such, cannot be saved.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith