1 Cor.15 The rapture?

BobRyan · Jan 4, 2006

Yep they are both speaking of the rapture.

BobRyan · Jan 4, 2006

Originally posted by UUall:
Bob
What i was trying to point out was that according to scripture (Isaiah 25), before "death is swallowed up in victory", there is going to be huge tribulation.
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Yes I agree. Matt 24 points that out as well. Prior to our being gathered together to HIM there is going to be that great tribulation.

I just went back and read Isaiah 24. Its more than huge tribulation. Its the "Day of the Lord". Go read it yourself, theres no mistaken.
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The "day of the Lord" ALSO comes before the rapture. But it is not the same thing as the great tribulation as MAtt 24 points to BOTH of those events in sequence prior to our Gathering together to Him at the Rapture.

In Christ,

Bob

UUall · Jan 5, 2006

Bob
Just so's i understand where you are coming from a little better.

EZEKIEL 34 [9] Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord; [10] Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them. [11] For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. [12] AS A SHEPHERD SEEKETH OUT HIS FLOCK IN THE DAY THAT HE IS AMONG HIS SHEEP THAT ARE SCATTERED; SO WILL I SEEK OUT MY SHEEP, AND WILL DELIVER THEM OUT OF ALL PLACES WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN SCATTERED IN THE CLOUDY AND DARK DAY. [13] And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, AND WILL BRING THEM TO THEIR OWN LAND, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

Would you also call the above a rapture scripture?

LadyEagle · Jan 5, 2006

Just throwing in this sweet chart I posted on another thread:

I get confused with what people mean in their posts, sometimes. Graphics work well for me.

I think people get confused between Jesus and His Second Coming to Earth and Jesus in the Clouds/Snatching Away the Bride.

LadyEagle · Jan 5, 2006

EZEKIEL 34 [9]
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...butting in....I would not call that a Rapture Scripture, but more like a Scripture describing the 1000 year reign....

BobRyan · Jan 5, 2006

Originally posted by UUall:
Bob
Just so's i understand where you are coming from a little better.

EZEKIEL 34 [9] Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord; [10] Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them. [11] For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. [12] AS A SHEPHERD SEEKETH OUT HIS FLOCK IN THE DAY THAT HE IS AMONG HIS SHEEP THAT ARE SCATTERED; SO WILL I SEEK OUT MY SHEEP, AND WILL DELIVER THEM OUT OF ALL PLACES WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN SCATTERED IN THE CLOUDY AND DARK DAY. [13] And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, AND WILL BRING THEM TO THEIR OWN LAND, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

Would you also call the above a rapture scripture?
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Ezekiel prophesied before the return of Israel from Babylon. The fact that he predicted that pre-cross event before it happened says nothing about post-cross events.

BobRyan · Jan 5, 2006

Jesus came - 2000 years ago and died for our sins.

Jesus will "come again" as He said in John 14:1-4 and speaks of that "coming of the Lord" in both 1Thess 4 and in 2 Thess 2. So also does Christ speak of His coming in Matt 24.

Hence all the texts are "About His Coming" and all of them pertain to the rapture that happens at "His coming" - "the Coming of the Lord".

The term "second coming" is not in scripture but we know it from Joh 14 "I will come again and receive you unto Myself" - we wait for the "Coming of the Lord" as Paul says in 1Thess4

That is "the focus of the church" according to Peter in 1Peter chapter 1.

In Christ,

Bob

UUall · Jan 6, 2006

Originally posted by BobRyan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by UUall:
Bob
Just so's i understand where you are coming from a little better.

EZEKIEL 34 [9] Therefore, O ye shepherds, hear the word of the Lord; [10] Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against the shepherds; and I will require my flock at their hand, and cause them to cease from feeding the flock; neither shall the shepherds feed themselves any more; for I will deliver my flock from their mouth, that they may not be meat for them. [11] For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out. [12] AS A SHEPHERD SEEKETH OUT HIS FLOCK IN THE DAY THAT HE IS AMONG HIS SHEEP THAT ARE SCATTERED; SO WILL I SEEK OUT MY SHEEP, AND WILL DELIVER THEM OUT OF ALL PLACES WHERE THEY HAVE BEEN SCATTERED IN THE CLOUDY AND DARK DAY. [13] And I will bring them out from the people, and gather them from the countries, AND WILL BRING THEM TO THEIR OWN LAND, and feed them upon the mountains of Israel by the rivers, and in all the inhabited places of the country.

Would you also call the above a rapture scripture?
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Ezekiel prophesied before the return of Israel from Babylon. The fact that he predicted that pre-cross event before it happened says nothing about post-cross events. [/QUOTE]A politician? A yes or no is what i was looking for. So, in the dark and cloudy day, how does God gather his flock? Boat? Bus? Train? Or in the twinkling of an eye?

UUall · Jan 6, 2006

Bob wrote
The term "second coming" is not in scripture but we know it from Joh 14 "I will come again and receive you unto Myself" - we wait for the "Coming of the Lord" as Paul says in 1Thess4

Ahhh.... 1Thes.4

Another scripture concerning the "dark and cloudy day"

Well... we will look into the "day of the Lord" at a later time.

UUall · Jan 6, 2006

Originally posted by LadyEagle:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />EZEKIEL 34 [9]
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...butting in....I would not call that a Rapture Scripture, but more like a Scripture describing the 1000 year reign.... [/QUOTE]I believe your right lady Eagle. This happens right before the 1000 yr riegn. In the twinkling of an eye!

UUall · Jan 6, 2006

Soooo... Bob says the DARK and CLOUDY day has already happened

EZEK. 34 [12] As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered; so will I seek out my sheep, and will deliver them out of all places where they have been scattered in THE CLOUDY AND DARK DAY.

ZEPH.1 [14] THE GREAT DAY OF THE LORD IS NEAR, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.[15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, A DAY OF CLOUDS AND THICK DARKNESS,[16] A day of the trumpet and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers.

JOEL.2 [1] Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: FOR THE DAY OF THE LORD COMETH, for it is nigh at hand;[2] A day of darkness and of gloominess, A DAY OF CLOUDS AND OF THICK DARKNESS, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.

So Bob.. You think the "Day of the Lord" has come and gone?

YES or NO

UUall · Jan 6, 2006

AINT THE WORD OF GOD GREAT!

UUall · Jan 7, 2006

As i look back on my last few posts i see sarcasm and confrontation. I wanna say to those that these posts were directed that im sorry. I dont mean to come across that way. Sometimes i get caught up in the moment and my fingers work quicker than my brain. Again, im sorry.

BobRyan · Jan 7, 2006

Ezekiel 34
Prophecy against the Shepherds of Israel
1Then the word of the LORD came to me saying,
2"Son of man, prophesy against the shepherds of Israel Prophesy and say to those shepherds, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Woe, shepherds of Israel who have been feeding themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flock?
3"You eat the fat and clothe yourselves with the wool, you slaughter the fat sheep without feeding the flock.
4"Those who are sickly you have not strengthened, the diseased you have not healed, the broken you have not bound up, the scattered you have not brought back, nor have you sought for the lost; but with force and with severity you have dominated them.
5"They were scattered for lack of a shepherd, and they became food for every beast of the field and were scattered.
6"My flock wandered through all the mountains and on every high hill; My flock was scattered over all the surface of the earth, and there was no one to search or seek for them."'"
7Therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD:
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The sins of the undershepherds of Israel were grave at the time of Ezekiel. They really had done all that the Lord accused them of doing!

With “Force and severity” they dominate instead of ministering to the real spiritual needs of the flock. True of Israel’s leaders in Jeremiah’s day – true of the RC leaders in the blind superstitions they promoted in the dark ages.

8"As I live," declares the Lord GOD, "surely because My flock has become a prey, My flock has even become food for all the beasts of the field for lack of a shepherd, and My shepherds did not search for My flock, but rather the shepherds fed themselves and did not feed My flock;
9therefore, you shepherds, hear the word of the LORD:
10'Thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I am against the shepherds, and I will demand My sheep from them and make them cease from feeding sheep So the shepherds will not feed themselves anymore, but I will deliver My flock from their mouth, so that they will not be food for them."'"
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Ezekiel prophesied during Babylonian captivity - God removed the leadership in Israel during the Babylonian captivity.

Matthew Henry
The iniquities and calamities of God's Israel had been largely and pathetically lamented before, in this book. Now in this chapter the shepherds of Israel, their rulers both in church and state, are called to an account, as having been very much accessory to the sin and ruin of Israel, by their neglecting to do the duty of their place. Here is, I. A high charge exhibited against them for their negligence, their unskillfulness, and unfaithfulness in the management of public affairs, Ezekiel 34:1-6,8. II. Their discharge from their trust, for their insufficiency and treachery, Ezekiel 34:7-10. III. A gracious promise that God would take care of his flock, though they did not, and that it should not always suffer as it had done by their mal-administrations, Ezekiel 34:11-16. IV. Another charge exhibited against those of the flock that were fat and strong, for the injuries they did to those that were weak and feeble, Ezekiel 34:17-22. V. Another promise that God would in the fulness of time send the Messiah, to be the great and good Shepherd of the sheep, who should redress all grievances and set every thing to rights with the flock, Ezekiel 34:23-31.

http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=eze&chapter=034
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The Restoration of Israel After Babylonian Captivity

Ezek 34
11For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I Myself will search for My sheep and seek them out.
12"As a shepherd cares for his herd in the day when he is among his scattered sheep, so I will care for My sheep and will deliver them from all the places to which they were scattered on a cloudy and gloomy day.
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Jeremiah predicted that this time of captivity would last 70 years and this is the “Hope Of Israel” as we see Daniel pointing to this “release” predicted for Israel in Dan 9:1-4. Ezekiel points that time of release. But he also makes reference to this scatting time as a “cloudy and gloomy day”. (He does not refer to the scattering time as “the day of the Lord”)

Matthew Henry
1. God will gather his sheep together that were scattered, and bring those back to the fold that had wandered from it: "I, even I, who alone can do it, will do it, and will have all the glory of it. I will both search my sheep and find them out (Ezekiel 34:11) as a shepherd does (Ezekiel 34:12), and bring them back as he does the stray-sheep, upon his shoulders, from all the places where they have been scattered in the cloudy and dark day." There are cloudy and dark days, windy and stormy ones, which scatter God's sheep, which send them hither and thither, to divers and distant places, in quest of secresy and safety. But, (1.) Wherever they are the eye of God will find them out; for his eyes run to and fro through the earth, in favour of them. I will seek out my sheep

http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=eze&chapter=034
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The day of scattering is seen by Matthew Henry to be that “cloudy and dark day” mentioned here.

Ezek 34
13"I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land; and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel, by the streams, and in all the inhabited places of the land.
14"I will feed them in a good pasture, and their grazing ground will be on the mountain heights of Israel There they will lie down on good grazing ground and feed in rich pasture on the mountains of Israel.
15"I will feed My flock and I will lead them to rest," declares the Lord GOD.
16"I will seek the lost, bring back the scattered, bind up the broken and strengthen the sick; but the fat and the strong I will destroy I will feed them with judgment.
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Matthew Henry
They shall not return one by one, clandestinely stealing away, but they shall return in a body: "I will gather them from the countries into which they are dispersed, not only the most considerable families of them, but every particular person. I will seek that which was lost and bring again that which was driven away," Ezekiel 34:16. This was done when so many thousand Jews returned triumphantly out of Babylon, under the conduct of Zerubbabel, Ezra, and others.
http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=eze&chapter=034
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The same sheep scattered – Israel are the same ones brought back in this future predicted gathering that would happen (and that did happen as predicted) after the Babylonian captivity. There is no way to ignore the fulfillment of this prophecy!

However as with many types of the OT – there is an even bigger redemptive fulfillment in the future when Christ Himself shall come to deliver His persecuted-Church as we see in 2 Thess 1.

Matthew Henry
When those that have gone astray from God into the paths of sin are brought back by repentance, when those that erred come to the acknowledgment of the truth, when God's outcasts are gathered and restored, and religious assemblies, that were dispersed, rally again, upon the ceasing of persecution, and when the churches have rest and liberty, then this promise has a further accomplishment.
http://www.studylight.org/com/mhc-com/view.cgi?book=eze&chapter=034
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hillclimber · Jan 7, 2006

Originally posted by BobRyan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by hillclimber:
Matt 24 is clearly refering to the second coming. Not the calling out of the church. (rapture)
As Jesus was talking of these events, the rapture was still unheard of, and He was talking to Israel.
Jesus never refered to the rapture, because it was not in any way a part of his mission. He was sent solely for the purpose of establishing His bona fides as "The Messiah", and starting the prophecied Kingdom. He came unto His own, and His own received Him not.
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So he DOES speak of his "coming again" and His "return" but you deny that He speaks of the "FOCUS" of the entire NT church - "The Coming of the Lord" mentioned in both 1Thess 4 and 2Thess2???

1Pet 1
13 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
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Does this mean you now reject His statements on that SAME point in Matt 24 AND in John 14?

In Christ,

Bob [/QUOTE]I mean that Jesus came to establish His Kingdom, with himself ruling as Messiah. His efforts while here was to convince Israel who He was.

The Mystery age of grace was hidden in the Father, only revealed through the apostle Paul after Israel's rejection of Messiah.

We are addressing 2 (two) seperate events.
1) the Millinial Kingdom, where the Messiah will touch dowm on the mount of Olives, "feet on ground". HE COMES DOWN.

2) We meet Him in the air in the rapture. WE ARE CAUGHT UP.

standingfirminChrist · Jan 7, 2006

I mean that Jesus came to establish His Kingdom, with himself ruling as Messiah. His efforts while here was to convince Israel who He was.
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The first time Jesus came, He came not to establish His kingdom, He came to seek and save that which was lost.

He stated, 'My kingdom is not of this world', or this present age.

hillclimber · Jan 7, 2006

He came to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
Matt.10

Salvation is of the Jews. woman at the well. John 4

His ministry was to Isreal, who's mission was then to then complete the "great commission" Mark 16

His Kingdom is to start on planet earth, but we know He came to die on the cross, Is that what you mean, SFIC?

He came first to die on the Cross.
Secondly He will call away the saints to meet Him in teh air. (rapture)
Third he will set foot on Mount of Olives, and establish His millenial Kingdom.

BobRyan · Jan 7, 2006

Originally posted by UUall:
As i look back on my last few posts i see sarcasm and confrontation. I wanna say to those that these posts were directed that im sorry. I dont mean to come across that way. Sometimes i get caught up in the moment and my fingers work quicker than my brain. Again, im sorry.
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I would be the last one on this board to complain. And in this case - I had a chance to compare some Bible Commentaries to my off-the-cuff response on Ezek 34 - and then create an Ezek 34 "commentary file" for my own records - so it has been a good thing.

In Christ,

Bob

Linda64 · Jan 7, 2006

Isaiah 53 tells of the first coming of Messiah (His suffering, death, burial & resurrection). The Jews did not recognize Him as the Suffering Servant (the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world [John 1:29] ). They truly believed that Jesus was going to set up His earthly kingdom at that time. They were looking for a King who would save them from the Romans. But when He was crucified, they rejected Him as their Messiah (it was a National rejection).

There are many Jews today (mainly the Orthodox and Ultra Orthodox) who are still looking for Messiah, and I believe they will accept Anti-Christ as the true Messiah because he will bring "peace" (which will, of course, be a false peace). I truly believe that right before this happens, the Church will be raptured. Christ will come 'in the air' 'in the twinkling of an eye' and the rapture will more than likely be the catylist for the "man of peace" (the Anti-Christ) to be revealed. We are very close to the rapture--it is imminent.

1 Cor. 15:51-58; 1 Thess.4:13-18; John 14:1-3--the Rapture (for the Church)
Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21--Tribulation (time of Jacob's Trouble) & Second Coming of Christ; the Church is not mentioned.

BobRyan · Jan 7, 2006

The term "church" is not used in 1Thess 4 or in Matt 24 when it speaks of those who will be alive at the "coming of the Lord".

In 1Thess 4 the time is "the coming of the Lord".

In 2 Thess 2 the time is "the Coming of the Lord AND our Gathering together to HIM".

Paul points out that this does NOT happen unil those great events listed in Matt 24 come to pass.

Christ tells His followers in Matt 24 what the sequence will be - it is right on the money - so to speak.

1 Cor.15 The rapture?

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