Which is the Jewish Sabbath - Saturday or Lunar?

Bob, as I stated earlier, if you rejoice in Shabbat, that is fine with me. I am more interested in how the SDA's can ignore the failed prophecies, while still calling Ellen White a latter day prophet. If you are following the Ten Commandments, then what about the Torah? It is very clear about who is, and who is not a prophet with a very exacting criteria.

 

Matthew 22:
36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

 

Christians do follow the law:

http://www.puritan-books.com/books/pdf/new_testament_commands.pdf

 

Six Facts For Saturday Sabbatarians To Ponder
Dan Corner

Permission to reproduce entirely only.



1. All of the Ten Commandments were reinstated in the New Testament with only one exception, the one dealing with the Sabbath Day being kept holy.

· The 1st commandment was reinstated in Matt. 22:37; 1 Cor. 8:5,6.

· The 2nd commandment was reinstated in 1 Jn. 5:21. (Col. 3:5 and Eph. 5:5 broadens idolatry to include covetousness.)

· The 3rd commandment was reinstated in Col. 3:8.

· The 5th commandment was reinstated in Eph. 6:1-3.

· The 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th commandments were reinstated in Rom. 13:8-10; Matt. 19:18; Gal. 5:14; 1 Cor. 6:9,10; and Gal. 5:19-21.

Sometimes Heb. 4:4 and 4:9,10 are thought to show the sabbath command was reinstated in the NT merely because the word "sabbath" is found. Let's look at this passage:

For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh day in these words: "And on the seventh day God rested from all his work." And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest." It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience. Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day. There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God; for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his (Heb. 4:4-10).

Please note: That passage mentions only a "Sabbath rest," but not the keeping of the Sabbath, as Israel was commanded in the Old Testament! Furthermore, this "Sabbath rest" can not be equated with the keeping of the Sabbath, for even the Israelites who did keep it did not enter this "rest." A Christian finds his spiritual rest in Christ (Mt. 11:28). Only the 4th commandment, which is ceremonial rather than moral, was not reinstated in the New Testament, the covenant we are under today.


2. The Sabbath command was a memorial for those delivered from slavery in Egypt.

The Sabbath command was given soon after the Israelites were delivered by Moses. Read of the crossing of the Red Sea in Exodus 14. The point of Exodus 19:1 was just three months after they left Egypt, with Exodus 20 (when the Ten Commandments were given) coming soon thereafter.

Exodus 20:1-17 is repeated in Deut. 5:6-21, where Moses expounds upon WHY it came and to WHOM the Sabbath command was given.

"Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the LORD your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the LORD your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day" (Deut. 5:15).

As Passover was an annual memorial festival for the Jews to celebrate in memory of God, who passed over the houses of the Israelites in Egypt while the firstborn of the Egyptians were struck dead (Ex. 12:14-30), the Sabbath was also for the Jews to remember weekly their historical deliverance from bitter slavery in Egypt, Deut. 5:15. The Sabbath command, therefore, was not a "creation ordinance" as some say, according to Deut. 5:15. Also consider the following:

"The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested" (Exo 31:16,17).


3. Christians are permitted to make up their own minds about a special day.

"One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord ...." (Rom. 14:5,6).

If the Sabbath command was still enforced today, as in the Old Testament, such "liberty" would NEVER be allowed! Can you imagine such Christian "liberty" in setting up idols, committing adultery or stealing? Since the latter are clear commands (no idolatry, no adultery, no stealing), there is no such "liberty" regarding these matters, in contrast to a special weekly day to the Lord. Also remember, when Paul gave us Romans 14, he knew about Gen. 2:3 and the rest of the Old Testament. Among Saturday sabbatarians there does NOT exist this Christian liberty!

Col. 2:16,17 adds to all this by saying:

"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink or with regard to a religious festival, a new moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ."

If it is true, as some say, that the pope changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, then why did first-century Christians sometimes meet on Sunday?:

On the first day of the week we came together to break bread. Paul spoke to the people and, because he intended to leave the next day, kept on talking until midnight (Acts 20:7).

On the first day of every week, each one of you should set aside a sum of money in keeping with his income, saving it up, so that when I come no collections will have to be made (1 Cor. 16:2).



4. The Gentile Christians were NOT informed to keep the Sabbath (or the rite of circumcision) when practices and commands were officially passed on to them from the original church council.

In Acts 15, the first church council convened over a false teaching of that day:

"Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved," verse 1.

When the Lord's apostles wrote their decision about circumcision for the Gentile Christians to read (Acts 15:23-29), their silence about the observance of the Jewish Sabbath is significant, especially when we consider that breaking the Sabbath command in the Old Testament carried with it very serious consequences, including the death sentence for offenders (Exo. 31:14-17 cf. Num. 15:32-36):



5. Paul tells us the real purpose of the entire Ten Commandments (law) in Gal. 3:24 and Rom. 3:20.

"So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith."

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin."


6. If the Sabbath command as given to Israel is still in effect, then the Lord Jesus commanded a person to sin by breaking it:

"Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me." Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked. The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat." But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk' " (John 5:7-11).

The Lord Jesus commanded that invalid, on a Sabbath, to pick up his mat and walk with it to be healed. Hence, this would constitute "work," according to the Old Testament Sabbath command. Since the Lord of the Sabbath could NEVER command a person to sin, we, thereby know that Christians today are NOT under this same Sabbath command as given to Israel in Ex. 20:8-11, which reads:

"Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy (Ex. 20:8-11).

Again, what the Lord Jesus told the man to do was forbidden to be done on a Sabbath, as the Jews correctly noted:

"The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat" (John 5:9,10).

Here's the exact Scripture where such was forbidden:

"This is what the LORD says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your forefathers. Yet they did not listen or pay attention; they were stiff-necked and would not listen or respond to discipline. But if you are careful to obey me, declares the LORD, and bring no load through the gates of this city on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy by not doing any work on it" (Jer. 17:21-24).

The Jews were right that the law, as given to Israel, to keep holy the Sabbath day forbid such things from being done. Hence, the OT Sabbath command can no longer be valid for Christians. So when did this change? The answer is found in Lk. 16:16:

"The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it."

This is also the reason why we don't see this part of the 10 commandments reinstated in the New Testament. This point cannot be answered by the SDA people.

Sabbatarians Are Not Keeping The Saturday Sabbath

Saturday Sabbatarians claim to keep the Sabbath command as was given to Israel, but in reality are only keeping a modified Sabbath regulation, which is not keeping it at all! Below are three reasons why this is so:

(A) In the OT, when this command was given to Israel and enforced, people were to be put to death for desecrating the Sabbath (Ex. 31:14,15):

"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people. For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death. The Israelites are to observe the Sabbath, celebrating it for the generations to come as a lasting covenant. It will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested" (Exo. 31:14-17).

A man was put to death for violating this command (Num. 15:32-36). So the same ones (Israel) that kept the Sabbath put to death Sabbath violators. Sabbatarians are NOT doing this!

(B) The Sabbath keepers were NOT allowed to light a fire on the Sabbath day:

"Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day" (Ex. 35:3, KJV).

If your heat in the winter is automatic through your furnace, you are violating this command. If you light your stove on the Sabbath you violate this command. If have an automatic hot water heater you are violating this command. Finally, if you start your car on the Sabbath, you have also violated this command given to Israel. Note: When you start your car, you start a fire that did not exist moments before.

(C) On "EVERY Sabbath" there is to be a burnt offering:

"On the Sabbath day, make an offering of two lambs a year old without defect, together with its drink offering and a grain offering of two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil. This is the burnt offering for every Sabbath, in addition to the regular burnt offering and its drink offering" (Num. 28:9,10).

This OT command for Sabbath keepers is clearly forbidden under the New Covenant in light of the book of Hebrews. The early Christians didn't do this and, therefore, did not keep the Sabbath command like Israel (Ex. 20:8-11 cf. Num. 28:9,10).


Sabbath breakers will NOT be thrown into the lake of fire

There is no Scripture in the New Testament which states that Sabbath breakers will be thrown into the lake of fire. On the other hand, the New Testament does state that idolaters, murderers, thieves, the covetous, the sexually immoral, liars, etc. will be excluded from the kingdom of God and thrown into the lake of burning sulfur (1 Cor. 6:9,10; Eph. 5:5-7; Gal. 5:19-21; Rev. 21:8). Furthermore, there are others, like the drunkards, etc. who are not mentioned in the Ten Commandments, that will likewise experience the same eternal destiny, that is, unless they repent (1 Cor. 6:9,10; Gal. 5:19-21).

For a Saturday Sabbatarian to say one MUST keep the Saturday Sabbath regulation for salvation is to place themselves under the anathema found in Gal. 1:8,9.

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/sabbath_facts.html

 

MOSES’ LAW OR CHRIST’S LAW

By
Bernie Koerselman


http://www.inplainsite.org/html/Moses_law_or_Christs_law.html

 

This fallacy is flawed in so many places it is hard to believe anyone takes it seriously!

#1. You can not "re-instate" something that is still in force!! Matt 22 is PRE-CROSS!! How in the world can you RE-instate the commandment against having other gods but the one true God!!??? How can you do it PRE-Cross (as if PRECROSS it was "OK" for a while to have other gods!!!).

How can you do it POST cross? (As if during the time of the cross it was OK to have other gods!!).

This "reinstate" language IS NEVER found in ALL of scripture regarding God's Ten Commandments.

#2. The "TEN Commandments" are CALLED the TEN Commandemts by God Himself -- never the "downsized NINE".

#3. We know that in Isaiah 66 In the FUTURE New Heaven and New Earth the Sabbath Commandment of Christ our Creator REMAINS (rather than "downsized").

#4. As already noted in my previous posts - the 4th commandment ITSELF is quoted numerous times in the NT!

So far these are simply "facts to be glossed over" by those who oppose what Christ set up in Gen 2:3.

Still waiting for the substantive response for those who reject Christ's Holy Day to show where in the OT the Mark 2:27 statement of Christ applies "The Sabbath was MADE for Mankind"

In Christ,

Bob

 

[/quote]

This merely shows that the binding obligation of God's own Commandments given in Exodus 20 are BASED in the binding obligation of God's word in Lev 19:18 "Love your Neighbor as yourself" and the binding obligation of God's Word as stated in Deut 6:% "Love God with all your heart".

How that is being used here to attack God's own Commandments is a mystery.

Care to explain?

In Christ,

Bob

 

The Gentile Christians were not "informed" about lying in Acts 15, or about going to church or about giving offerings or about stealing or about murder or about honoring parents in Acts 15.

The attempt to "rewrite the NT" such that Acts 15 is the only thing Gentiles knew - does not work.

Furthermore Acts 15 points out that the Gentiles ARE hearing "Moses preached every Sabbath" and we SEE THEM hearing that in Acts 13 "Sabbath after Sabbath"!!

It is hard to believe that anyone would use Acts 15 as proof that Christ the Creator's Sabbath is to be ignored!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Here we have duplicity personified - point number 1 in this list is that the "Ten Commandments were downsized to NINE" - but now point 5 tries to delete ALL of them??!!

In Eph 6 Paul QUOTES the 5th commandment saying that Children ARE STILL to honor parents for "THIS IS THE FIRST commandment WITH a promise"!! That is only true WITHIN the UNIT of TEN!

Instead of Paul saying "Children you need to honor your parents BUT NOT because God's Word SAYS to do so in God's Commandments - since they were done away with -- RATHER there is another reason..." Paul simply QUOTES the 5th commandment!

This is devastating to those who would bend the text to claim "The Law is done away with and Christians should not obey it once they are svaed".

But even MORE obvious than all of that is the fact that in Gal 3 and in Romans 3 and 7 the LAW is what "defines sin". In Romans 6 we are told that SIN shall not be master over you. IF you are arguing that the LAW of God that STILL defines sin EVEN in the NT - should be ignored by those "over whom SIN Shall not be master" then you are embracing a self-conflicted doctrine.

In Christ,

Bob

 

</font>[/QUOTE]This merely shows that the binding obligation of God's own Commandments given in Exodus 20 are BASED in the binding obligation of God's word in Lev 19:18 "Love your Neighbor as yourself" and the binding obligation of God's Word as stated in Deut 6:% "Love God with all your heart".

How that is being used here to attack God's own Commandments is a mystery.

Care to explain?

In Christ,

Bob [/QB][/QUOTE]

5. John 15:10
"If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Notice "my commandments" and then "my fathers commandments".

He did not say:

If you keep My *fathers* commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Read Jeremiah 31:31 for clarification.

 

The point being in the list of responses above -- we have yet to find even one objection to Christ the Creator's Holy day that holds water!


How can that be? Surely "one" would have to be something of substance!!

 

STill waiting for a substantive response to this question (in fact waiting for "any response")

In Mark 2:27 Christ states that the Sabbath WHEN MADE was MADE for mankind!

So you are right to observe that in Exodus 20 God is not "Making" the Sabbath - rather He is pointing back to it - back to Gen 2:3 and stating that the seventh-day of the week in Gen 2:3 where God blessed the day and MADE it Holy is when the day was MADE.

So WHEN was the day "MADE FOR MANKIND" as Christ said in Mark 2:27 if not then?

What are you proprosing??

Mark 2:27 “The Sabbath was Made for MANKIND”.

When was this true? Where did this begin?

No Alternative

What are the possible "alternatives" to simply accepting the Mark 2:27 , Gen 2:3 and Isaiah 66 statements on the scope of Sabbath applying to “All Mankind”?

When “else” would you apply it?

#1. Would it be to argue that when God "Made the Sabbath for mankind" in Gen 2:3 He "kept the 7-day week and the 7th-day weekly Holy day of Christ our Creator a secret from all mankind."? Was this supposed time of keeping the memorial of creation a secret from mankind – the time when “Sabbath was made for mankind” but not the time when God expected “All mankind to come before Him to worship”?

#2. Is it in the OT days after the fall of Adam - when some claim that "God only gave the Sabbath to the Jews and NOT all mankind"?

#3. Is it post Cross - when some say that it actually displeases God if we obey Him and honor His 7th-day memorial of the creation of mankind – since in fact – He is not even asking us to honor His own memorial of Creation that He blessed and Sanctified in Gen 2:3 making it “For mankind”.

#3. Or is it sometime after the 2nd coming - when Isaiah 66 described the New Earth and "All mankind" coming before God to worship? Is it some post-2nd-coming “New Earth” as God describes in Rev 21?

#4. Or will the claim be that the People of God were kept so far in the dark in all of these areas - that they had no hope of having any understanding of the "New Heavens and New Earth" or when it would be and so any application of anything in that mythical - unknown time can not be counted on - even when the message comes from God Himself? Since (after all) the Jews were confused.

Basically there is no compelling alternative to suggest for Isaiah 66 let alone make a solid case for. So then we accept the Isaiah 66 reference to the New Earth as fully consistent with the Rev 21 reference and we also accept the “All mankind” – scope – as real, authoritative, divinely inspired and true – even though it is spoken in Isaiah to a rebellious Israel. </font>[/QUOTE]

 

Boanerges--wow--that's alot of food for thought--will look into those sites!!

toda raba

 

(How many ways to keep avoiding that one simple question posted above)

 

Hey Bob, I am not really interesting in debating the Sabbath anyway. Heck, every so often I even attend a Shabbat dinner with my Jewish friends. What I want to discuss is Ellen White and the Scriptural criteria for a prophet. It has always confused me why SDA's can see some things so clearly, and then miss this issue.

 

Bob--

Being that the Sabbath was given to Israel and not to the Church--noting your NT verses in Mark 2:27 (Jesus is still speaking to the Jews--not the Church there), for a NT Church to keep the Sabbath as it was given to Israel would require that that church meet ALL the requirements of keeping the Sabbath. Please read Boanerges posts carefully and check out those links.

SDAs are still under the law if they insist that the Church keep Saturday Sabbath instead of observing the Lord's Day on Sunday (the first day of the week).

 

Simple question. In Mark 2:27 Christ Himself says that the "SAbbath was MADE for mankind".

Your views "don't allow for that to be true".

You seem to object to the fact that I notice it - why not just embrace Mark 2:27 instead?

You seem to be doing a lot of "dancing around" the point instead of just addressing it.

Still waiting for a substantive response - "any" response in fact.

In Christ,

Bob

 

His points were already listed and debunked carefully on this thread by observing the "inconvient details" in each of them.

The point of Mark 2:27 is still waiting for the careful, cogent, thoughtful reply from someone who rejects that text. Christ said "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" a fact that was already true as of Mark 2 at the start of His ministry - pre-cross.

Where in your doctrinal views do you "allow for that"?? (Unless you want to attempt to build the case that in the NT the term "mankind" means "Jews not gentiles". If so - please make the attempt I will read it.)

Your answer above seem to be "nowhere".

And I don't fault you for admitting it - just want to discuss it.

In Christ,

Bob

 

That didn't take long.

So are you willing to show where your view allows Christ's statement in Mark 2:27 "to be true"??

In Christ,

Bob

 

3. Jesus and the Sabbath:

Apart from His claim to be the Messiah, there is no subject on which our Lord came into such sharp conflict with the religious leaders of the Jews as in the matter of Sabbath observance. He set Himself squarely against the current rabbinic restrictions as contrary to the spirit of the original law of the Sabbath. The rabbis seemed to think that the Sabbath was an end in itself, an institution to which the pious Israelite must subject all his personal interests; in other words, that man was made for the Sabbath: man might suffer hardship, but the institution must be preserved inviolate. Jesus, on the contrary, taught that the Sabbath was made for man's benefit. If there should arise a conflict between man's needs and the letter of the Law, man's higher interests and needs must take precedence over the law of the Sabbath (Mt 12:1-14; Mr 2:23 through Mr 3:6; Lu 6:1-11; also Joh 5:1-18; Lu 13:10-17; 14:1-6). There is no reason to think that Jesus meant to discredit the Sabbath as an institution. It was His custom to attend worship in the synagogue on the Sabbath (Lu 4:16). The humane element in the rest day at the end of every week must have appealed to His sympathetic nature. It was the one precept of the Decalogue that was predominantly ceremonial, though it had distinct sociological and moral value. As an institution for the benefit of toiling men and animals, Jesus held the Sabbath in high regard. As the Messiah, He was not subject to its restrictions; He could at any moment assert His lordship over the Sabbath (Mr 2:28). The institution was not on a par with the great moral precepts, which are unchangeable. It is worthy of note that, while Jesus pushed the moral precepts of the Decalogue into the inner realm of thought and desire, thus making the requirement more difficult and the law more exacting, He fought for a more liberal and lenient interpretation of the law of the Sabbath. Rigorous sabbatarians must look elsewhere for a champion of their views.
International Standard Bible Encyclopedia