Featured Were There Non-Catholic Churches Before Protestants?

I remember a 'Landmark Baptist' handed me a tract based on that 'mess'. I ended up reading the book 'Trail of Blood' which has since been debunked. Most Baptist distance themselves from this nonsense. Here is what former Baptist pastor (now Catholic) Steve Ray says about it:

https://www.catholicconvert.com/wp-content/uploads/Documents/TrailOfBlood.pdf

 

If so, then the gates of hell prevailed against the Church and Jesus was wrong. Unless, as is being inferred, there is a tiny remnant of 'bible-only Baptists' hiding out from their persecutors in which case there should be some historical evidence to that fact. All the other heretical groups have a ton of historical evidence proving their existence and the debates regarding their beliefs, but not one iota of a Baptistic group. I find that very odd and, frankly, unbelievable. Btw, SDA's and even Mormons claim the same 'remnant' theories.

 

If, and only if Jesus had told His followers that the NT was to be printed up in a book with nothing else. The fact is, Jesus said no such thing - He established a Church with people who have the authority to act IN HIS NAME. He who hears you hears me, He said.

Not everything is listed in the Scriptures friend, so if the appropriate authority from within the Church has determined that infant baptism is just fine, than it is so and as such is a decision that will be bound on this earth and in Heaven. There are hundreds of issues that crop up that need decisions that are not specifically listed in the Scriptures, like from the way the marriage ceremony should be conducted to the way we have our funerals.

 

This is very true. I doubt you would find much in common with the beliefs of the American Baptist church where I live.

You do make a good point and Luther was labeled an Anabaptist. Given what the term Anabaptist pertained to, I have had difficulty understanding that because he believed exactly as the Catholic Church does about baptism. I have no doubt that Luther's view of Sola-Fide and yours are quite different. Even now there is a joint declaration between Catholics and Lutherans regarding justification.

 

Actually, St. Paul himself said that it was the church of the living God that was the pillar and bulwark of the truth, not the Bible alone (see 1 Timothy 3:15).

 

As someone who comes late to this Catholic-Baptist fight (and via Atheism), I offer my very amateur observation that the Historical Record must be viewed as having a large thumb on the scale when it is in the physical possession of only one side for most of history and that particular side has a long history of killing those who disagree. Even if manuscripts on credobaptism were once common, who would have copied them in the padeobaptist church? Even if a manuscript existed in the Vatican Archives, would the RCC rush to present it to anyone?

What we do have are the writings of the Apostles, accurately recorded in vast numbers of copies spread throughout the world and in various languages. The Apostles clearly said what they said and no church father is needed to confirm that.

[For what little it might be worth, I am a credobaptists who recognizes the historic evidence that infant baptism was wide spread by AD 200 and may have been practiced as far back as the First Century (although how common it was before AD 200 is strictly a matter of conjecture due to the darth of evidence one way or another from the period).]

Scripture presents no clear examples of infant Baptism. It speaks of "households" which may or may not have included infants. In some cases it specifically states that everyone in the household "believed" and was "baptized" which strongly suggests no infants in that household. Baptizing everyone who believes is the definition of credobaptism, so whether it was taught in the early church or not, it was apparently practiced in the Book of Acts. The 1500's are not when we rejected the ideas of the church and substituted our own ... that is when people were finally able to read what the Apostles commanded for themselves and returned to obeying what they had commanded.

Show me the command to baptize unbelieving infants and I will obey Scripture.
Show me where the Bible says that Baptism is the new circumcision and I will believe it.
If God has not said it, then please do not fault me for refusing to believe it.

All I ever wanted from Christianity was the TRUTH.

 

The New Testament books are in evidence.

 

It was not. That is English Baptist, Shared beliefs ,not NAMES go much farther back

 

i think it is to timeline parallel the established churches and those who were like Baptist.

 

The Catholic Church did not expunge the writings of heresies of Gnosticism (1st and 2nd Centuries), Sabellianism (Early 3rd Century), Arianism (4th Century), Pelagianism (5th Century), Semi-Pelagianism (5th Century), Nestorianism (5th Century), Monophysitism (5th Century), Iconoclasm (7th and 8th Centuries), Catharism (11th Century). However, according to you, the evil Catholics have the documents that prove there were 'Baptistic bible-only Christians' existing in the early church in it's archives because these are such threats to it's credibility that they cannot let them be seen. Do I have that right?

 

John MacArthur is all fluff, Zwingli said they did believe sola fide

I read that quote too . It does not fit other teachings, probably a characterization from Catholics

Martin Luther said Anabaptist did not believe Jesus is God and certain laborers were not worth saving

 

I think so, they considered all who were not Catholic as heresy. We know by the enemies quotes about of these other groups and the extent of these beliefs

 

Except they were not like Baptist! Lets look at the Waldenses Confession of Faith:

"In the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and of the Blessed and Ever-Virgin Mary. Be it noted by all the faithful that I, Valdesius, and all my brethren, standing before the Holy Gospels, do declare that we believe with all our hearts, having been grasped by faith, that we profess openly that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three Persons, one God....

"We firmly believe and explicitly declare that the incarnation of the Divinity did not take place in the Father and the Holy Spirit, but solely in the Son, so that he who was the divine Son of God the Father was also true man from his Mother.

"We believe one Church, Catholic, Holy, Apostolic and Immaculate, apart from which no one can be saved, and in the sacraments therein administered through the invisible and incomprehensible power of the Holy Spirit, sacraments which may be rightly administered by a sinful priest....

"We firmly believe in the judgment to come and in the fact that each man will receive reward or punishment according to what he has done in this flesh. We do not doubt the fact that alms, sacrifice, and other charitable acts are able to be of assistance to those who die.

"And since, according to the Apostle James, faith without works is dead, we have renounced this world and have distributed to the poor all that we possess, according to the will of God, and we have decided that we ourselves should be poor in such a way as not to be careful for the morrow, and to accept from no one gold, silver, or anything else, with the exception of raiment and daily food. We have set before ourselves the objective of fulfilling the Gospel counsels as precepts.

"We believe that anyone in this age who keeps to a proper life, giving alms and doing other good works from his own possessions and observing the precepts from the Lord, can be saved.

"We make this declaration in order that if anyone should come to you affirming that he is one of us, you may know for certain that he is not one of us if he does not profess this same faith." [

Sound like any Baptist you know?

 

My point is that the Catholic Church has not destroyed the evidence of these other heretical sects/teachings. Why just your Baptistic teachings? Heresies have been with us from the Church’s beginning. They even have been started by Church leaders, who were then corrected by councils and popes. Fortunately, we have Christ’s promise that heresies will never prevail against the Church, for he told Peter, "You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). The Church is truly, in Paul’s words, "the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15).

 

Were There Non-Catholic Churches Before Protestants?

I came right to the end of the now last page.

Therefore - Don't know if anyone mentioned the Waldensians aka the Vaudois aka The People of the Piedmont Valley.
Surely someone must have.

Many many years ago when I lived in the Boston suburbs I began a research paper on the Waldenses.
Though I was not a Harvard Graduate they allowed me to use their research libraries (unparalleled except maybe for dead German Institutes) to do my work.

Organized by Peter Waldo in the 10th century they pre-existed Waldo by centuries.
The Roman Catholic Church committed their worst autocracies upon these people - even greater IMO than the Roman and Spanish Inquisitions.

Health issues kept me from completion but here is a good starting point for their history of centuries of martyrdom for those who are interested.:

Waldensian History