Is hell eternal?

Claudia,

Just FYI, I have seen it argued that just as the fire which consumed Sodom is not an eternal fire (obviously), since it is not burning now, we need not apply otehr references to eternal fire (such as the Lake of Fire) as eternal. In this instance, probably what is meant by "eternal fire" regarding Sodom is either that it was destroyed eternally, by fire, or that the nature of the fire which destroyed it is that of the eternal "lake of fire.".

OTOH, some argue that similarly unbelievers will be annihilated, not suffer eternally, by the Lake of Fire.

Your thoughts? (IOW, are you arguing that the "eternal" fire will not actually last forever, or that it will annihilate all unbelievers?)

FA

 

Faith Alone,


Compare Revelation 20:10 and Ezekiel 28:18,19

Revelation 20:10
7: And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8: And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


Ezekiel 28 (and read starting from verse 13-19 to get the context that it is referring to Lucifer who became Satan)

18: Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.
19: All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.


Notice the Devil is not going to "be any more" and he will be brought down to ashes in the sight of everyone. He was the one who actually caused all these sin problems on the earth. God is going to make a spectacle of the destruction of Satan in the end. So the Lake of Fire wont burn forever and ever, no.

There isnt going to be death, no sin, no sinners screaming out in pain and anguish eternally...


No more tears, no more death, sin and sinners wiped out forever.

Matthew 25:41 (speaking of the "goats")
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels

Revelation 20:15
12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14: And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15: And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Psalm 37:9,10,20
9: For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the LORD, they shall inherit the earth.
10: For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
20: But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.


...it isnt as we have been led to believe that the Devil is standing around with a pitch fork on God's payroll, getting a thrill for all eternity because he is able to torture people in "Hell".

God is going to make an end of all the misery. FOREVER.

Claudia

 

...and by the way, take special notice here that once again, this "Hellfire" doesnt happen at a person's death... neither do God's people go to heaven at time of death, read carefully:

Matthew 13:
39: The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40: As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


See how many misapplications of Scripture people have just swallowed without just taking time to actually read what the Bible says? Unfortunately they just have gone by "tradition" and just believe whatever their Pastors have told them... nobody bothers to just go read for themselves and study these things out for themselves

resulting in false misunderstandings about God's character.

Christians need to realize these false ideas about Hell have painted God out to be some sort of monster and it is responsible for turning untold thousands of unbelievers away from God. I have been in so many Christian chat rooms where this is the case... they reason How can God be a God of love if He tortures people forever??? I dont want to serve such a God!

When in reality, sadly they have been told falsehoods from the Christian pulpit about Hell.

I mean yes, those who reject Christ will "burn in Hell" but not forever and ever throughout the ceaseless ages of Eternity.

READ THIS though you have read it time and time again but this time notice something...

Jn:3:16: For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Notice that little word "PERISH" ???

that means DIE. the Second Death.


Claudia

 

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Despite your above rationalization, one can come to only one conclustion with the above verses.

 

Notice the word "PERISH" again here when it comes to what's going to happen in Hell?

Mt:5:29: And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Lk:13:5: I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Jn:10:28: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.


Claudia

 

DHK

The Bible has to be studied in it's entirety. You cant just pick out verses here and there, you have to look at all the verses about eternal and everlasting and hell, the destruction of the wicked, etc.


In this fire will there be torment? and how long will it last?
"He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever." Rev. 14:10, 11.
NOTE. - The Greek term translated in this text "forever and ever," has different meanings; according to the connection in which it is used, such as, duration, finite or infinite; unlimited duration, past or future; time, age, lifetime; the world, universe. Greenfield.

How is the term understood in the case of certain Hebrew servants?
"His master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever." Ex. 21:6.
NOTE. - He could not serve his master longer than he lived.

For how long a time did Samuel's mother lend him to the Lord to serve in the temple?
"I will bring him, that he may appear before the Lord, and there abide forever." "Therefore also I have lent him to the Lord; as long as he liveth he shall be lent to the Lord." 1 Sam. 1:22, 28.
NOTE. - In this case it is definitely stated to be ''as long as he liveth." Had Samuel lived only a week or a month, the "forever" would have been limited to a week or a month. It is evident that the term "forever" often means "limited duration."

How long was Jonah carried in the whale's belly through the depths?
"I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever." Jonah 2:6.
NOTE. - In this case "forever" is limited to three days.

What is the nature of the fire into which the wicked will finally be cast?
"Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, De- part from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the Devil and his angels." Matt. 25:41.

What is said of this fire in another place?
"He will thoroughly purge His floor, and gather His wheat into the garner; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire." Matt. 3:12.
NOTE. - The fire is said to be everlasting because it is not "quenched." If fire is quenched after taking hold upon a house, the structure is saved; but if the fire is unquenchable, it does for the house just what the last quoted text says it will do with the chaff (the wicked) namely burn it up. Such a fire is called "everlasting," because it lasts as long as there is anything for it to prey upon, and because its results are everlasting.

Has everlasting or eternal fire ever been visited upon men in the past?
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 7.

What was the result of this eternal fire upon those cities?
"And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly." 2 Peter 2:6.
NOTE. - "Everlasting" fire converted these cities into ashes, and the apostle says they were made an ensample to those who should after live ungodly. We cannot for a moment suppose that those cities are now burning; for the saline waters of the Dead Sea rollover the very spot where they stood.

What will be the final effect of this fire on the wicked?
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power." 2 Thess. 1:9.


Claudia

 

Fate of the Transgressor


You see, when you look at everything else that the Bible has to say about what will happen to the wicked, you begin to understand that "forever" is used just as it is used in the other places, meaning that the wicked will burn till there is nothing left to burn... but this fire is unquenchable by any human power.

Regarding the wicked, what question does Peter ask?
"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God; and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?" 1 Peter 4:17.

What does Paul say is the wages of sin?
"For the wages of sin is death." Rom. 6:23 (Eze. 18:4). NOTE. - Die. - To cease to live; to expire; to decease; to perish. - Webster.

What will be the character of this death?
"Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power." 2 Thess. 1:9 (Acts 3:23) (Matt. 10:28).
NOTE. - Destroy. - To kill; to slay; to ruin; to put an end to. - Webster.

What does the Saviour say will befall those who do not repent?
"I tell you, Nay; but, except ye repent, ye shall all like wise perish." Luke 13:3 (1 Cor. 1:18) (Job 20:4-6). NOTE. - Perish.- To die; to lose life; to wither and decay; to be destroyed; to come to nothing; to be blotted from existence. - Webster.

In what condition does the apostle say they shall thus perish?
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption." 2 Peter 2:12.

To what are the wicked in their punishment compared?
"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the lord shall be as the fat of lambs; they shall consume, into smoke shall they consume away." Ps. 37:20.
NOTE. - Consume. - To destroy by separating the parts of a thing by decomposition, as by fire, etc.; to bring to utter ruin; to exterminate. - Webster.

What will be the results of this punishment?
"As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more; but the righteous is an everlasting foundation." Prov. 10:25.

Will any part of them be left?
"For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch." Mal. 4:1.

What will then be their condition?
"For as ye have drunk upon My holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually; yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been." Obad. 1:16.

Where will the place of the wicked then be?
"For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be; yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be." Ps. 37:10.
NOTE. - It would be difficult to keep the wicked in eternal torment without any place even, in which to exist.

The earth in its present condition is and has been the place of the wicked. Where will they receive their recompense, death, which is the wages of sin?
"Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth; much more the wicked and the sinner." Prov. 11:31.

How is this accomplished?
"And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city; and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." Rev. 20:9

Do the wicked go directly to this punishment at death? If not, when do they receive it?
"The lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished." 2 Peter 2:9 (Job 21:29, 30).

The earth, the sinner's "place," has been cursed with sin. To what is that reserved?
"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7.

What will be the result of this fire on the earth?
"Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat." 2 Peter 3:12.

What does our Saviour call the earth when in this condition?
"The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire." Matt. 13:41, 42.

After the burning of the earth, what is to come?
"Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13.
NOTE. - The "place" of the wicked no longer exists. That, too, will be gone.

But where will the righteous then be found?
"Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father." Matt. 13:43.

What promise of the Saviour's will at that time be verified?
"Blessed are the meek; for they shall inherit the earth." Matt. 5:5.

 

Despite your verbose rationalizations in your above posts Rev.20:10,15 cannot so easily explained away. Words have meanings. You cannot change those meanings by inserting them into the contexts of different passages of Scriptures. We call that Scripture twisting.
These verses have only one meaning. It is evident to all.
tormented day and night forever and forever
DHK

 

Claudia,

Thx. So you are an annihilationist. How do you handle the concepts throughout scripture regarding the eternal fires, eternal condemnation, etc.? (You listed sveeral in your response to me.)

Thx,

FA

 

We are looking at the things that have to do with eternal fire... so you have to do a Bible study on THAT... to see what that specifically means..


Psalms 21
8: Thine hand shall find out all thine enemies: thy right hand shall find out those that hate thee.
9: Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them
up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.


See what the fire does? in the time of God's anger...

Now if you wanted to find out the meaning or eternal "life" you would do a study on THAT.

1Cor:2:13: Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.


Claudia

 

DHK,

I dont see it as scripture twisting, I see it as taking a Bible topic and then finding all the Bible verses on that particular topic and comparing them to get the entire picture of what God is saying to us.

Not taking an isolated Scripture and then building an entire doctrinal belief on that.

Claudia

 

Isaiah 14: Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.


Malachi 4:
1: For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2: But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3: And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.


Revelation 21:
1: And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2: And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3: And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4: And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

 

I have to go to a Doctor's Appt in a few minutes but here are some more verses for you about this...

Matthew 13:40-42
40: As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41: The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42: And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


Revelation 20:9
9: And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.


Proverbs 11:31
31: Behold, the righteous shall be recompensed in the earth: much more the wicked and the sinner.


2 Peter 3:10
10: But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

 

The Hebrew prophets often, if not most of the time, spoke very figuratively. Keep in mind that what John saw in Rev.20 was the Great White Throne Judgement. It was not figurative. It was literal. It is a literal passage, something that he actually saw in heaven that will indeed come to pass. With that in mind look at the Scripture twisting that you are doing.

In Psalm 21:8 God doesn't have hands. That is an anthropormorphism to help us understand the nature of God. It is figurative.
John 4:24: God is Spirit, they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
God is Spirit; he doesn't have a body.

Verse 9: "AS a fiery oven" The "as" indicates a similie, a figure of speech. It is not literal. The word devour does not mean consume as in annihilate. We have here a figure of speech. It in no way teaches annihiliation. You can't get that from this figure of speech.

"See what fire does in the time of God's anger."
No, I don't. God is a perfect being. He doesn't have anger. Certainly anger and wrath are spoken of many times to describe God, but that is for our understanding to describe his attribute of justice. God is God of love and justice; not anger. I don't serve an angry God. That is an emotion that is used to help man understand the justice of God. Anger is not an attribute of God. However I do see God's justice. "Shall not the God of all the earth do right?"
Eternal life for those that accept God's offer for the payment of the penalty for their sins.
Eternal death for those that rerfuse God's offer for the payment of the penalty for theri sins.
Death is separation. Separation from God for all eternity in a place called the Lake of Fire.

If you want to find the truth of eteral torment go to where the truth of the literal passage is taught--Rev.20:10-15.
DHK

 

More Scripture twisting.
as stubble That is a similie. It is figurative. The fire shall burn them. How true. It will burn them for all eternity, and like the bush that Moses saw, they shall not be consumed.

More Scripture twisting.
as an oven--a similie
shall be stubble--a meatphor.
With such figures of speech you prove nothing. They will suffer punishment, figuratively. The prophets were adept at using figurative language to describe a severe type of punishment awaiting them.

More Scripture twisting.
It is very obvious how figurative this passage is. For the Lord is not a "sun" is he? Nor does the Lord have wings! He is not an animal.
as calves--man is not a calf. It is a similie, a figure of speech.
And with all of this figurative language you still think you have a case??

Are the wicked ashes? No this is a metaphor.
Neither does it say they are annihilated. It refers only to punishment in a figurative way.

This is after Rev.20:10-15 has taken place. So it has no bearing on the Great White Throne Judgement and the Lake of Fire which still exists, and all those that are in it still burning and being tormented forever and ever. What is wrong? Don't you believe the Word of God?
DHK

 

More Scripture twisting.
As therefore--indicative of another similie, and therefore figurative.
The very fact that there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth indicates that there will be eternal torment. Take into consideration the totality of Scripture instead of twisting the Scriptures to your own perverted doctrine.

More Scripture twisting.
Did he devour them in the sense that you mean it. Or don't you know the meaning of "devour?" Apparently not. Why didn't you quote the next verse (10) along with it?

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
--This is the meaning of "devour." They shall be tormented day and night forever and forever. The verse is so plain and clear. Words have meanings. Why don't you want to believe the clear teaching of the Word of God?

This is true. How does it prove your point? It doesn't. It simply gives a comparison of reward.

So? This old earth and universe will some day be burned up. It says nothing of the Lake of Fire which will burn forever, in which all unsaved will be tormented forever and forever. This adds nothing to your case.
DHK

 

DHK my Brother,

One can also look at that word 'devoured' in Revelation 20:9 and tie that in with Mark 9:44, 46, 48. Looking at the fact that 'their worm dieth not', shows that the torment is forever. The worm is constantly eating, but they are not consumed. The fire is constantly burning, yet they are not consumed.

We see the same thing with the fire Moses saw, when God was in the bush burning with fire and not consumed. Also, the three Hebrew children were in a literal fiery furnace in which they were not consumed. The only difference will be, those who reject Christ, those who try to enter heaven by any other way than the door, will be cast into the lake of fire and they will feel the fire, they will smell the burning for all eternity , and yet they will not be consumed.

The fire is not quenched... yes, my Brother, you are correct. The torment is forever.

I have said it before, and I will say it again... If man was completely annhilated upon his being cast into the lake of fire, why would the lake of fire need to burn forever?

 

One thing that I do not think has been mentioned here yet: Many in the universalism camp do not hold to the traditional trinitarian position, or to the deity of Christ. (Check out CARM.)

FA

 

Hell is eternal.
Those that would deny such would deny the sufficency of the death and sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ. Did Christ die in vain?
He died to save us from the penalty of our sin. The penalty from our sin is eternal death or eternal separation from God. If it isn't, then what?

To the unsaved: "Let us eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die." Tomorrow is annihilation? Tomorrow there is no tomorrow. So what about heaven. I don't care. I am going to live my life to the fullest--sin, drink, over-indulge, do drugs, go wild, do what ever I want--in short live for myself!! Why? I will face no judgement. There is no eternal punishment. I will face annihiliation. So what!!!!!!!!!

But if there is a hell, then God is just, and God is who He says is He is. Man who has rejected the offer of salvation will suffer eternal torment in the Lake of Fire as opposed to those who received the offer of salvation and will enter into eternal life. God is a just God.
Christ's sacrifice was not in vain!
DHK

 

Hell must be eternal.

The THREAD about it is.