Is hell eternal?

Why do you not believe the Words of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ?

He said evertlasting punishment ....Not instant annhilation.

Everlasting means perpetual or eternal. Punishment means torment. There is no perpetual torment in instant annhilation.

 

I think we are not really addressing each other's concerns. Assuming that your question is addressed to me, I will respond with: "Why do you not believe the words of Paul from Romans 6:23 when he talks about death (death means "perishing") as being the wages of sin?"

BTW, I do not necessarily ascribe to "instant" annihilation - one can be annihilated after a some periond of punishment.

 

In reviewing your question as to Romans 6:23, I have come to the conclusion that Paul was not speaking of an annhilation, but separation when writing that verse.

We find in Paul's writings that he preached the gospel of Christ. Christ said in Matthew 25:46 that there would be eternal punishment, there must be eternal punishment.

If Paul's statement, 'the wages of sin is death' meant annhilation, then that would mean our Lord was lying when he said 'everlasting punishment' in Matthew 25:46.

And we know our Lord 'did no sin, neither was guile found in His mouth', so Paul could not have been speaking of an actual death, but a figurative one.

 

Death never means perishing. It always means separation. There are various types of death or separation spoken of in the Bible.

First there is physical death or separation as is evident in the book of James.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--When the body is separated from the spirit there is death. Death is separation. Most people recognize this. The body doesn't automatically "perish" right there on the death bed in the hospital. It is still right there in front of the loved ones. It doesn't perish. It's spirit lives on, either in hell or in heaven.

Secondly there is spiritual death spoken of in Ephesians 2:1

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--Quickened means made alive (check other translations). Who was he speaking to? He was not speaking to people who were raised again from their graves. He was speaking to those that had been spiritually dead in their sins. They were separated by sin from God. They had not been born again. When one trusts Christ as their Saviour God gives life, a new life in Christ. Christ, by the power of His Holy Spirit comes and dwells within giving life. He makes the one that is born again alive--that one who was previously dead. It is pictured in baptism (by immersion). Going under the water pictures the old life which was spiritually dead. Coming out of the water pictures the new life in Christ, a life that is now alive. Death is separation. They were once separated from God spiritually. They now have life, and are no longer separated from God spiritually. Death is always separation.

Thirdly there is eternal death pictured in the verse you quoted--Romans 6:23

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Again death is separation.
Paul is drawing a comparison. The latter part of the verse he says, "the gift of God is eternal life..." Eternal life is set in contrast to "eternal death." Though the adjective "eternal" is not there it is implied. Eternal death is contrasted to eternal life. Paul speaks of eternal separation from God. That is death. Eternal death is being separated from God for all eternity in Hell (ultimately the Lake of Fire) forever and ever. Death (separation from God) will never end. Death in the Bible always means separation.
DHK

 

It seems to me that the reasoning implied by your post is exactly the kind of problematic thinking that I described in my post. You seem to be allowing a "plain reading" of the Matthew 25 text to determine your interpretation of the Romans text, an interpretation in which "death" means something other than its "plain reading" would indicate.

This is subject to the counterargument that one could have done things the other way around - one could have started with a "plain reading" of the Romans text (which involves a "death means death" interpretation) and then concluded that the Matthew text may not mean what it seems to mean.

This is exactly the trap that I have been writing about.

DHK - I do not have the time to consider your response right now, but hope to do so in the next day or so.

 

Nothing Plain about my view of the passage in Matthew 25 at all.

The Greek text is translated into 'perpetual torment'. Those are not my words, they are the Words of Jesus Christ Himself.

Do you deny the Words of Christ? Was He lying, in your opinion, when He said 'These shall go away into everlasting punishment'?

 

We are discussing different things. Your question rests on certain premisses that I have discussed in my recent post. I would be inclined to answer your questions by raising the "Have you stopped beating your wife?" question (not that I am actually suggesting that you beat your wife - the question presumes certain things. I think my posts are clear and readers will understand why I cannot really answer your question as posed.

I will make the general statement that Jesus never lied to us. However, I am a little concerned that you seem to either not understand my post or may not have read it with serious attention.

 

I understand the post. You are arguing that Paul's writing that 'the wages of sin is death' is your proof of annhilation.

I submit to you, if it was annhilation, then Jesus out and out lied when He said He would send some into 'perpetual torment'.

And I know Jesus did not lie.

 

Death never means perishing. It always means separation. There are various types of death or separation spoken of in the Bible.

First there is physical death or separation as is evident in the book of James.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
--When the body is separated from the spirit there is death. Death is separation. Most people recognize this. The body doesn't automatically "perish" right there on the death bed in the hospital. It is still right there in front of the loved ones. It doesn't perish. It's spirit lives on, either in hell or in heaven.
</font>[/QUOTE]I will try to respond to each of your three points in different posts (for the sake of brevity).

Your agument seems to assume the existence of an immaterial spirit that is "housed" in the body. I believe that this is an incorrect representation of the human person. I have become convinced that the concept of an immaterial spirit that flies off at death is not really in the scriptures (plus I think there are philosophical / empirical reasons to reject this dualistic view of man). I have come to believe that it is really based on Greek ideas about dualism, ideas that were foreign to the Hebrew culture from which the Scriptures emerged.

In short, in order for your argument to work, you would need to make a case for this dualistic picture of man. If there is no immaterial spirit, then when a person dies they really die and there is no separation, since there is no spirit to "separate" from the body. And your argument depends critically on this duality.

 

Job 32:8 But [there is] a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding.

There is one verse that shows man does indeed have an immaterial spirit.


SPIRIT

The word spirit has various meanings in Scripture.

(1) Sometimes (rarely) it refers to the breath of man (Job 27:3).
(2) Sometimes it refers to intelligence and skill (Ex 28:3; De 34:9).
(3) Sometimes it refers to the emotions (Ex 6:9; 1Sa 1:15).
(4) Sometimes it refers to demons (Le 20:27; Jg 9:23; Job 4:15; Mt 12:43; Mr 1:23; 3:30; 5:2; 7:25; 9:20-26; Ac 5:16; 8:7; 16:18; 19:12-13; 1Ti 4:1).
(5) Sometimes it refers to angels (Heb 1:7,14). [
(6) Sometimes it refers to the Holy Spirit (Ge 1:2; 6:3; Zec 4:6; Mt 3:16; Ac 2:4; 5:9; Ro 8:9). [See Holy Spirit.]

The spirit can faint (Ge 45:26), can be willing (Ex 35:21), can be hardened (De 2:30), can be sad (1Ki 21:5), can be troubled (Joh 13:21), can rejoice (Lu 10:21), can be refreshed (1Co 16:18).

The N.T. says there are three parts to man: spirit, soul, and body (1Th 5:23). Jesus dismissed His spirit from His body when He died on the cross (Lu 23:46). The Christian is to be holy in body and in spirit (1Co 7:34; 2Co 7:1). Death is separation of the spirit from the body (Jas 2:26).
Way of Life Encyclopedia

 

Your argument is with Scripture.
Philosophy is but a vain man's imagination.
Take up your argument with what the Spirit of God has said through the Apostle Paul:

2 Corinthians 5:1-4 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The "we" that are in this tabernacle, are our spirits which live forever. Paul refers to the body as a tabernacle, a temporary dwelling place that will die and turn to dust. The spirit that dwells within will live on forever. Paul makes this very clear. We (our spirits) are the living ones living in a temporary body.

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

The spirit is real. It is alive. It will live forever, either in hell or in heaven. Your argument is with Scripture.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
DHK

 

Amen, DHK!

 

I know this is long, but I did not get it from a website, I have the encyclopedia on my PC. I feel it is relevant to the discussion.

HELL

Hell is the place of punishment and prison for those who rebel against God. It was created for Satan and the rebellious angels (Mt 25:41).

In the O.T. the word Hell (sheol) has two meanings. Sometimes it means the place where the bodies of the dead are laid (Ps 6:5; Ec 9:10; Isa 38:18-19). Usually, though, it means the place where departed spirits go (Ge 37:35; De 32:22; Ps 9:17; 16:10; 55:15; 30:3; Pr 9:18; 15:24; 23:14; Isa 5:14; 14:15; Eze 31:16; 32:21,27).

WHAT IS HELL LIKE?

BIBLE DESCRIPTIONS OF HELL:

WHAT WILL NOT BE IN HELL? The following are a few of the things that will not be in Hell:

ARE THE WICKED ANNIHILATED IN HELL?

CHRIST'S TEACHING ON HELL.

NNE HAS TO GO TO HELL.

ANNIHILATION

Way of Life Encyclopedia

 

Eternal fire is what consumed Sodom and Gomorrah – they are exhibited as a perfect example of the “punishment of eternal fire”

Sodom and Gomorrah were Destroyed by “fire and brimstone”. So eternal fire is composed of fire and brimstone and the “destruction” it causes is exhibited by Sodom and Gomorrah.

The Lake of Fire is composed of “fire and brimstone” (The ultimate exhibit of the “punishment of eternal fire”.) This is the “second death” which is the punishment for sin “The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life”

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Here we notice again that it is the “sea” and the “Grave” that give up the dead – these are terms that would appear to apply to the earth. So also we see that the wicked are throne into the lake of fire – first mentioned in Rev 19 at the appearing of Christ prior to the 1000 years.

The term "hell" in Rev 20 is not the one that we see in Matt 10. In Rev 20 we have “Hades” which is literally the dead in “graves”. This makes perfect sense when we note that “The Sea and the grave” are giving up what is in the. WERE this really some kind of afterlife-hell then many of those who went down into the sea would ALSO be in Hell!

Here Jamieson,Fausset,Brown show that the term "Hades" is used to represent "grave" in Rev 20 not "Hell fire".

JFB show that there is no way to equivocate between "hell" (Hades - the grave) in Rev 20 and the fiery Ghenna of Matt 10.

In Luke 12:5 Jamieson, Fausset, Brown (JFB) also show that this same "Fiery hell" rather than "the grave - HADES" of Rev 20 is the focus -- Just as I did.

John and Jacob Abbott point out that in Rev 20 "Hades is the grave"

http://www.studylight.org/com/ain/view.cgi?book=re&chapter=020




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Death is ended.
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor. 15:26)


The Lake of FIRE IS the 2nd death Rev 20:18 – So it too ends. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

 

Death is ended.
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor. 15:26)


The Lake of FIRE IS the 2nd death Rev 20:18 – So it too ends.


The wicked are “consumed” they are “destroyted”.

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”
2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”

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The wicked will “be no more”

The wicked are “consumed”

Ezek 28:18
Ps 104:35
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The “Full Penalty of sin is fully paid”


Sinners are “exterminated” not “perpetuated”

Is 13:9 – sinners are exterminated from the land.

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Examples of “Eternal”


Examples of “Forever”
Deut 15:17 – Slave forever
Philemon 1:15 – slave forever
(yet set free at death – Job 3:19)

Is 34:10 smoke goes up forever (Vs 11, 17 and later inhabited)


God takes no pleasure in the 2nd death

Ezek 18:23,32
Isaiah 57:15-16

 

The problem is what you just admitted - you are "refuting verses" not comments from the poster.

The mere "quoting of the verse" is enough to set up in opposition to your POV and though you response "claims" scripture twisting - in fact all that has been done (in the examples you give) are mere 'quotes' of the Bible.

The idea that "you need to refute verses of the Bible" is something you just said I am simply noting it.

You also show why you do not use them to support the view that the wicked are "destroyed" both "body and soul" as Matt 10 says.

But the fact that you do not choose to use them does not make "the mere quote of them" scripture twisting!

Having said that - I do not deny that people DO twist scripture and this can be plainly seen as they rephrase it to wrench it out of its context and far from what exegesis could ever support -- in an "all-for-man's-tradition" effort.

But I think you are under obligation to "show them" doing that when you accuse of scripture twisting. Merely noting that they "accurately quote" the text and also admitting that your view needs to "refute the texts quoted" is a confession of another sort.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Apparently the Hebrew word that is translated as "everlasting" really does mean "without end".
</font>[/QUOTE]Agreed. Good thing the text says "abhorrence" (the view of the saints as they see the wages of sin paid) and NOT "everlasting torment" (the experience of the wicked) in that same context.

Indeed - and also Matt 10 where JUST as people DESTROY the body today SO God will "DESTROY BOTH body AND soul in hell fire".

 

Paul's statement on death "Wages of sin is DEATH" and NOT eternal life - is in keeping with Christ's statment that God will "DESTROY BOTH body AND SOUL in hell fire" Matt 10.

 

The last enemy to be destroyed is death. Funny, Death and Hell are cast into the lake of fire before the unbelievers are. Therefore, death is destroyed before the unbelievers are cast in; ergo... they cannot die.