Is hell eternal?

What is so hard to understand about the Word of God concerning the eternality of hell and those who are cast into it. A place of outer darkness. A place of memory. A place of torment. A place of sorrow. A place of screaming. A place of no relief from torment. A place where one's worm dieth not. A place where the fire is not quenched. A place where one is forever separated from God.

 

I used the position of the Catholics as an example. I could use many others. I will ask again.
1. Why do Catholics pray to Mary and other "dead saints" in heaven?
2. Why is the hope of many born-again Christians to see their loved ones in heaven when they die?
3. Why do most people in general expect to see heaven as a populated place with those who have died and gone on before us?
4. According to your own theology, who will be in heaven, and who is in heaven right now?
5. In other words, does not man have a spirit entirely separate from his body, which at death will be separated from his body and will go either to heaven or hell? If that is not your theology, what on earth is in heaven right now, if it is not spirits of men and women who have been saved??
It becomes very obvious that death is the separation of the spirit from the body (James 2:27), as the Bible states.

I explained it in a previous thread. Your response was that you would have to think about it and would get back to answering it at a later date which you never did. Thus it remains unrefuted. Death in the Bible always means separation. If you have evidence to the contrary please present it.
There is physical death (spearation of the body from the spirit.
There is spiritual spearation (Eph.2:1)--separation from God because of sin.
There is eternal separation (Rom:6:23)--separation from God for all eternity.
There is also the final sentencing of all the unsaved at the "Second Death" where all the unsaved will be separated from God for all eternity once and for all. Death means separattion--always. Show me anything to the contrary.

The denial of spirits cannot be claimed. If you want Scripture for it I will give it:

Revelation 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;

Revelation 5:8-9 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

Revelation 19:5-6 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Revelation 7:14-17 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

There are obviously saints in heaven? What saints? Saints in spirit form. For the resurrection, to this day, has not yet taken place. What John saw, he saw before the resurrection had taken place.

Agreed. And this is where you are consistently wrong. Ther spirit is obviously a different entity then the body. In fact Paul points to a tri-partite being:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

So what is a holistic being, if it is not a being that denies a the existence of a material spirit after death??

I will be looking forward to it.

The flaws in your argument is a disbelief in the direct statements in the Word of God:

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
DHK

 

This sort of ties in with Bob's theory to prove that annihilation was given to Sodom and Gomorrah while on earth [destroyed by fire to dust and ashes as total judgment in this age]. In Matt 10, Jesus refers to the judgment of those cities to be less than the judgment that of those cities who refuse to receive Him as the Messiah on Judgment Day, so the dust to ashes was not a final judgement.

Mat 10:15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

There is also a small "problem" with the 2 Peter 2 passage to which Bob hangs his theory of permanent destruction of S & G.

Early in the chapter Peter refers to their "destruction does not slumber" in reference to those in hell. Again, the "ashes to dust" phrase is simply a description of the condition to which S & G succombed to as judgment in this age to which an example was set for all who are ungodly as to the kind/similarity of final judgment that would be in the age to come - destruction by fire, but not annihilation - a complete picture that Jude 1:7 was also giving - that dust to ashes is NOT final judgment - and they are, according to this verse, currently suffering ["undergoing"] the everlasting fire. The age to come is an eternal judgment/torment as is proven Scripturally in the words of Jesus.

[Literal translation]
2 Peter 2:3 ¶ And by covetousness, with well-turned words, they will use you for gain, for whom judgment of old does not linger, and their destruction does not slumber.
4 For if God did not spare sinning angels, but delivered them to chains of darkness, thrust down into Tartarus, having been kept to judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah the eighth, a herald of righteousness, bringing a flood on a world of ungodly ones;
6 and covering the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah with ashes, He condemned them with an overthrow, setting an example to men intending to live ungodly.

Jude 1:7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them, in like manner to these, committing fornication, and going away after other flesh, laid down an example before-times, undergoing vengeance of everlasting fire.

One last thought on Matt 10. The context of the destruction of soul and body in hell is meant to be one of warning. If one does not belong to the Lord, that person's life is lost. A lost person, by Biblical standards, has lost soul and body to eternal destruction. I believe that Bob has put a little "too much English" on it, as my Dad used to say - by forcing the issue beyond which Jesus was implying. Reiterating - this was a warning of a future without God in judgment for the soul was to be lost as well as the body - total separation from God - which would be destruction by Biblical definition - and was said for emphasis, in my opinion.

Matt 10:26 Therefore, you should not fear them, for nothing is covered which will not be uncovered; and hidden, which will not be made known.
27 What I say to you in the darkness, speak in the light. And what you hear in the ear, proclaim on the housetops.
28 And you should not fear the ones killing the body, but not being able to kill the soul. But rather fear Him being able to destroy both soul and body in Hell.
29 Are not two sparrows sold for an assarion? Yet not one of them shall fall to the ground without your Father.
30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Then do not fear; you are better than many sparrows.
32 Then everyone who shall confess Me before men, I will also confess him before My Father in Heaven.
33 But whoever denies Me before men, I also will deny him before My Father in Heaven.


Question for Andre. When Paul said that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, I am curious how you would interpret that, if you believe there is no separation of body and soul.

2Cr 5:8 We are confident, [I say], and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Also, in Heb 4 - God has the ability to divide soul from spirit. Would that not imply separation?

Heb 4:12 For the Word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart;

Again, in Gen - God formed Adam's body and then breathed life/spirit into Him, so there was obviously a separation of body and "living" soul.

Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed the man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

And again:

Ecc 3:19 For that which happens to the sons of men, and that which happens to beasts, even one event is to them. As this one dies, so that one dies; yea, one breath is to all; so that there is to the man no advantage over the beast; for all is vanity.
20 All go to one place; all are of the dust, and all return to the dust.
21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of man, whether it goes upward; and the spirit of the beast, whether it goes downward to the earth?

Ecc 12:5 also they shall be afraid of a high place, and terrors in the way; and the almond tree shall blossom, and the locust makes himself a burden; and desire breaks, because man goes to his eternal home, and the mourners go about in the street;
6 while the silver cord is not yet loosed, or the golden bowl is crushed, or the pitcher is shattered at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern;
7 then the dust shall return to the earth as it was, and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.

 

The quote "eternal conscious torment" was not there - but I understand how it is that when you read that the Devil is tossed into the lake of fire and brimstone and then HE will be "tormented day and night forever and ever" that you interpret this as lost sinners being in "eternal conscious torment" instead of being "destroyed both body and soul JUST as the living today may be destroyed in body but not soul".

 

#1. It does not say "Eternal conscious torment"

#2. It does not say "tormented eternally".


God's Word says that just as the wicked are "destroyed - both body and soul" (Matt 10:28) which means "Destroyed by reducing them to ashes" 2Peter 2:6 -- so it is also true of the devil himself.

He will cease to exist.

He will be reduced to ashes.

But Rev 20 says "tormented day and night forever and ever" drawing on the text of scripture where this was already used and already applied -

And the "Forever and ever" phrase is the one that is drawn from the OT usage in Isaiah.

The destruction of Edom described here - did take place.

In Christ,

Bob

 

BTW I agree that the people of Sodom will be subject to the 2nd death - the Lake of Fire.

My point in using the example of Sodom is that it has the key element of being "an example of the punishment by eternal fire".

That alone is devastating to the view that tries to "infer" from the term "eternal fire" or "everlasting fire" that the thing being burned must be WITHSTANDING that burning so as to "exist forever" instead of being consumed!

I do not use it to claim that they are going to get out of the Lake of Fire - second death punishment for the wicked in torment and suffering.

In Christ,

Bob

 

All I am doing is "highlighting the inconvenient facts" in Matt 10 for those who reject it's statement about "DESTROYING BOTH body AND soul in hell fire" the way the wicked today can DESTROY the body but not the soul of the saints in real life - really "destroy".

I am not the one that "made up" that correlation - Christ did.

Just another "inconvenient fact to be ignored" if you have a certain POV -

In Christ,

Bob

 

Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed the man out of dust from the ground, and blew into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

 

The fire will be that same "eternal fire" but the difference is "The inhabitants will not die"...

That would be a good place for a "will not die" Bible quote.

You have none.

And that is your problem.

However you have a key point in your review above - the SAME eternal fire is used in both cases. So simply POINTING to the fact that "it was eternal fire" is not sufficient to conclude "so they could not have been reduced to ashes".

My point in using Jude 7 and 2Peter 2:6 is JUST to show that Eternal fire DOES reduce to ashes - as stated EXPLICITLY in the text of scripture.

I do not use this to substitute for the 2nd death.

Which I would claim is correct.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Clearly we differ on this POV - I have no question about that.

My question was about your thinking when you first came to this thread and posted on this topic.

Had you really already looked at the defintion Peter Gives for "destroy" and the way Christ used the idea for the wicked destroying the body of the saints IN THIS LIFE as He claimed that God would not only do that in the NEXT but ALSO God would "destroy BOTH Body and Soul in hell fire".

You still have not answered that point. Had you already looked at those problems for your POV prior to coming to this thread?

From the way you defined "destroy" so out of reconciliation with the way Peter uses it in the case of the "eternal fire" punishment of Sodom - it appears you had not looked at that and connected it to your views on hell before.

In Christ,

Bob

 

I can see how Bob has so many posts. Double and Triple posting instead of editing a post within the alloted time.

Most would call that spamming, Bob.

BTW, Hell is eternal. Rev. 20:10

People assigned thereto will be tormented forever Mark 9:44,46,48

The second death is eternal damnation in the lake of fire (Re 20:6,14-15). It is not annihilation, but eternal, conscious punishment (Re 20:10; 14:9-11).

 

I explained it in a previous thread. Your response was that you would have to think about it and would get back to answering it at a later date which you never did. Thus it remains unrefuted. Death in the Bible always means separation. If you have evidence to the contrary please present it.</font>[/QUOTE]I am a little concerned about the fact that you have not read my 3 clear responses to your arguments that death is always the separation of the spirit from the body. The last 2 actually start with a statement of the form "This is my response to your second point...", "This is my response to your third point...". We are not going to get anywhere if we actually do not read each others response. My responses are dated:

First Response: 02 Feb
Second Response 02 Feb
Third Response 03 Feb

In these responses, I show each of your arguments to be flawed. Now to make an important point - to this point, all I have done is show your specific arguments that "death = separation" are not justified. You might still be right, you just need to provide arguments that are justifiable. I further concede that I have not yet given any arguments about what I think death means. I happen to think it means "extinction" (with some qualifications), and I hope to provide an actual case for this later.

 

Agreed. And this is where you are consistently wrong. Ther spirit is obviously a different entity then the body. In fact Paul points to a tri-partite being:

1 Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.</font>[/QUOTE]The hidden assumption that you and others make is that talk of a spirit and talk of a soul are necessarily referring to a "thing" that exists. References to "soul" and "spirit" can be phenomelogical - such terms can be used to refer to a certain set of functions or felt experiences. For example, in modern parlance, even ahteists talk about their "soul" and their "spirit", with no intention to claim that they are a "tripartite" being. The Hebrews had no conception of such immaterial things - this is a Greek idea that has deeply influenced Christian thinking.

I have come to believe that Biblical precedent shows that "soul" and "spirit" do not refer to immaterial entities that inhabit the body. I do not have the time to make that case, but perhaps I will.

If you want to defend your position with any kind of rigour, you need to justify your claim that the "spirit" is an immaterial entity. You may think that the meaning is obvious, but this is the trap of undisciplined thinking (and I do this too!!). As I have shown, an interpretation that does not demand an "immaterial entity" is indeed plausible. Since I have shown such an interpretation to be plausible (possible, not ruled out, etc.), you are required by the principles of rational argument to show that my interpretation is ruled out. You cannot just assertthat Paul is claiming the existence of a tripartite being, without actively refuting the competing assertion (and it is just an assertion at this point) that Paul is speaking phenomologically or functionally here.

 

My point here is that I can't help but notice the hard and fast "consistency" that we see between Christ's use of the term for "Destroy" and the fact that EVEN in THIS life "Dust to Dust ashes to ashes" the body really IS destroyed - with the concept of "Destroy" that Peter also uses "Destroy by REDUCING them to ashes" and the fact that Christ applies to this to "both Body AND Soul in Hell fire".

The Bible point here is just innescapable in my humble opinion.

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God sent as ‘judgment” as the “punishment” of eternal fire..

</font>[/QUOTE][/QB][/QUOTE]

 

Of course we could also ask "what about all those OTHER texts"!!

Death is ended.
"The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." (1 Cor. 15:26)


The Lake of FIRE IS the 2nd death Rev 20:18 – So it too ends.


The wicked are “consumed” they are “destroyted”.

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Rev 20:9 “Fire DEVOURED the wicked”
Rev 11:18 “Destroy those who Destroy the earth”
2Thess 1:9 The wicked pay the “penalty of eternal Destruction”

Ps 21:8-10 “devoured” – “Destroyed”

[/quote]

=======================================================

The wicked will “be no more”

How great the contrast between Satan’s “beginning” and his “end” –

The wicked are destroyed “Both Body AND soul” Matt 10:28 and “Destroy” means “Reduced to Ashes” (2Peter 2:6 Jude 7)

The same concept of Kill and “Destroy” applied in the real world to real saints really being killed by real wicked people is applied to BOTH the body and the soul in hell fire in Christ’s warning .

In Matt 10 Christ goes from the idea of “Kill” to the even MORE complete idea of “Kill and destroy” in the sequence above. This progression is seen clearly as Luke relates the same teaching below.

Question for the exegetical review –

#1. What would the primary intended readers of Matt 10 have accepted as “in this life” the wicked ARE able to “Destroy the body” to “Kill the body”. Would they not think of it as “really kill the body” or would they see themselves in “ever-living-physical bodies” that the wicked NOT able to kill much less destroy??

Answer: They would obviously accept that their earthly bodies ARE killed, tormented and even destroyed in this life!! Destroyed as in “killed and turned into ashes”

#2. Would the first order primary audience have concluded that to DESTROY the body goes beyond just KILLING it and leaving it in tact as a corpse? Would they conclude that DESTORY means to not only kill – but ALSO to destroy the remains of the body!?? Indeed they would!

They are “destroyed” – reduced to ashes by that “eternal fire” from God sent as ‘judgment” as the “punishment” of eternal fire..

Mal 4:1,3 The wicked will be set ablaze – turned to ashes, nothing left


Ps 59:13 The wicked are “destroyed” they will “be no more”
“Destroy them in wrath – Destroy them that they may be No More”

Ps 104:35 sinners will be consumed – they will “be no more”
Ps 1:6 – not only the wicked – but “wickedness perishes”
Ps 10:15 God seeks out wickedness “until He finds none”

Prov 24:19-20 The wicked have a bad future – and THEN they have “no future”
</font>[/QUOTE]The wicked are “consumed”

Rev 20:9

Heb 10:27

Ezek 28:18

Ps 104:35

 

This post to Boanerges about 7 pages ago when he said that he could not actually read the response to his oft repeated question.

That is the short form - the long form was here --

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3603/16.html#000229

 

#1. Orthodox Rabbis of today believe "Satan is a good angel" and "Evolutionism is true not the Bible account in Genesis 1-2 or Exodus 20:8-11". So your appeal to the "Rabbis" is ... "interesting".

#2. The Septuagint is Greek OT. Written by the orthodox about 2000 years ago.

#3. My response consistently shows the eternal and final stated of the wicked is being addressed.

(But then - you have to "read" to get this)

In Christ,

Bob

 

Outstanding - do you have quote from them that I could use?

Do you actually "Read" what they have written?

In Christ,

Bob

 

#1. It does not say "Eternal conscious torment"

#2. It does not say "tormented eternally".</font>[/QUOTE][/QB][/QUOTE]
I hardly bothered to read the rest of your rationalization and verses taken out of context Bob. It does say tormented as you deny. It does say day and night. It does say forever and forever which is an abvious synonym for eternal. You are denying the Scriptures. Words have meanings If you want to take words out of different parts of Scripture and twist their meanings to try to fit their meanings into this passage that is your perogative. Peter calls that "wresting the Scriptures to your own destruction," which is literally what you are doing.

":They shall be tormented day and night forever." The statement means exactly what it says, not what you want it to say. There will be concscious torment (the only kind of torment possible) day and night for all eternity. That is the one and only meaning of that verse. Sound exegesis requires it. Sound heremeneutics require it. It requires no allegoraization, no twisting of words. Verse 15 fits into this verse as well.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The consequence is the same: eternal torment day and night. There is no other conclusion. Sound heremeneutics demands such a conclusion whether or not the human mind wants to accept it.
DHK