Is Michael Jesus?

No. Is standaingfirminchrist really Helen?
Is Johnv really Bible-boy?
Is Scarlett O. really Aaron?
.......

 

Alcott, you have an obvious knack for interesting pairings!

 

A clear and simple question deserves a clear and simple answer.

Helen's quote from of Hebrews pretty much ends all debate on the issue. You can't make those verses mean something other than what they clearly say.


[ January 25, 2006, 03:56 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

If you are attempting to make the case that the archangel, Michael, and Jesus are one and the same the above verse simply shows your error. If Michael is really Jesus why did he say, "The Lord rebuke thee"? Jesus is the Lord of Lords and He has the power and authority to rebuke the devil. Therefore, if it was Jesus speaking in the above quoted passage why did He not say, "I rebuke thee"? The answer, because it was the archangel, Michael, and not Jesus who was speaking.

This verse says nothing about Jesus and the archangel being one and the same. What it says is that the Lord Himself (Jesus) will descend. At that moment the archangel and an angelic trumpeter together will herald the coming of the Lord of Lords and the King of Kings. And we all say even so come quickly Lord! Amen.

No one is saying that an archangel will raise the dead (except apparently you). The passage in John clearly is speaking about Jesus. Then you have snatched a verse out of context from 1 Thes., forced your presupposition about Michael and Jesus being one and the same person upon it, and then jammed the two passages together. This is very poor hermeneutics, which results in eisogesis of the Scriptures. If we work hard enough at it we can make the Bible say just about anything we want (when we violate its context and employ eisogesis), for example we can make it say that suicide is an acceptable practice.

You know the Bible says that Judas hung himself and the Bible also says "go thou and do likewise." Therefore, we should all go kill ourselves. See I violated the context of the two passages, forced them together, and supported a presupposition that suicide is okay. This, of course, is ludicrous.


[ January 25, 2006, 05:32 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

Ps 110:1-4 1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
3Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
4The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

It is God the Father that will make the enemies of Christ His footstool. Therefore the Son refers the railing accusations of His Arch enemy to God the Father. The new testament also refers to the same.

Acts 2:33-36 33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
35 Until I make thy foes thy footstool.

Heb 1:13 13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Heb 10:10-13 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.


1 Cor 15:24-28 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

The Lord Jesus would not argue with Satan about the body of Moses. Instead of contending with one who would not accept His authority, Christ referred Satan to His Father, by whose authority He had come for the body of Moses. Who else but Christ would raise the body of the dead to bring it back to life, for Christ is the resurrection, and the life.

NOT! The verse is in front of both of us. Where do you see it saying “ at that moment the archangel and an angelic trumpeter together will herald the coming of the Lord of Lords and King of Kings”. You made that up, it is nowhere in the scripture we are examining. It also contradicts what the Lord Jesus Christ Himself said, that the dead will here his voice and rise, not the voice of an angel. The voice of the archangel is His voice. The context of the scripture is clear. It is about the Lord Himself, He will shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God, of who, of God, not an angel. It is you who are twisting the scriptures to say what you want them to say here, not me.


When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, He was first referred to as the angel of the Lord, and then plainly referred to as the Lord.

Exod 3:2-4 "2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
3 And Moses said, I will now turn aside, and see this great sight, why the bush is not burnt.
4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I."

When Moses asked God in the burning bush who he should say had sent him to deliver Israel, Moses was to say that I Am hath sent you. When Christ was here on earth, he applied this same title, I AM, to himself.

Exodus 3 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus Christ himself was telling the Jews that He was the angel in the burning bush speaking to Moses, and therefore was God. This the Jews understood, which is why they picked up rocks to stone him. It was the angel of the Lord within the burning bush who applied the title of I AM to himself, Christ applied the same title to himself. This is not rocket science.


Dan 8:11 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

The prince of the host spoken of above is the heavenly host. This we know from verse ten of the same chapter. This prince is none other than Christ.


Dan 8:25 25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

Again, who is the Prince of princes but Christ?

Dan 9:25 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

This is a no brainer, Messiah the Prince, both capitalized.

Dan 10:21 21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Why should we suppose that this is now a different prince. Who else but Christ could be our prince?


Dan 12:1-2 1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Michael is the great prince which stands for the people. Who else could this prince be but Christ? Again this Michael is spoken of in connection with the resurrection.

Christ is the Prince of princes.
Michael is the great prince.

Christ is the one who raises the dead.
Michael is twice spoken of in connection with the resurrection. He came for the body of Moses.

Christ calls the angels, His angels.
Revelation talks of Michael, and his angels.

Christ shouts with the voice of the archangel.
Michael is called the archangel.

Christ is Immanuel, which means God with us.
Michael means, one who is like God.

Michael is one of the many names, or titles applied to Christ in the scriptures. It is certainly fitting, since it means, who is like God. Here are some other names and titles applied to Christ. Prince, Lion of the tribe of Judah, Son of man, Son of God, high Priest, stone, Lamb, the Word of God, I am, King of kings, Lord of lords, Savior, Messiah, The way, The truth, The life, The bread of life, and the door. I’m sure that there are more that I have not thought of.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

MICHAEL THE ARCHANGEL ..... JESUS?


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To begin, let's look at the phrase *angel of the LORD* in the story of Moses and the burning bush-

Exo 3:2 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.

Now in verses four and six, who is identified as being in the bush?-

Exo 3:4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Exo 3:6 Moreover he said, *I am* the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God.

Notice that the angel (messenger) of verse 2 is really none other than God Himself. This is confirmed in the New Testament-

Acts 7:30 And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an *angel of the Lord* in a flame of fire in a bush.
Acts 7:31 When Moses saw it, he wondered at the sight: and as he drew near to behold it, the voice of the Lord came unto him,

Now note the following-

Exo 3:13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them?
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, *I AM* THAT *I AM*: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, *I AM* hath sent me unto you.

When asked what His name is, the God of the patriarchs of the Old Testament replies *I AM*. Now look again in the New Testament-

Acts 7:32 Saying, *I am* the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. Then Moses trembled, and durst not behold.

John 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, *I am*.

Jesus Christ had just identified Himself as the One who is the God of the Old Testament patriarchs, who was present in the burning bush speaking to Moses. Just for extra measure-

John 18:4 Jesus therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
John 18:5 They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, *I am* he. And Judas also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
John 18:6 As soon then as he had said unto them, *I am* he, they went backward, and fell to the ground.

Jesus Christ again makes it clear He is the *I am*. Merely speaking the words made those present fall over. So the *angel of the Lord* and Jesus are identical to, and synonymous with, the *I am* that met Moses at the burning bush.


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Now look at the story of Hagar in Genesis-

Gen 16:7 And the *angel of the LORD* found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.

Gen 16:9 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
Gen 16:10 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
Gen 16:11 And the *angel of the LORD* said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
Gen 16:12 And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.

Hagar has been visited and spoken to by the *angel of the Lord*, but look who she says it was-

Gen 16:13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?

Again the *angel of the Lord* is actually none other than the LORD Jesus Christ Himself. Now a little later in Genesis-

Gen 21:17 And God heard the voice of the lad; and the *angel of God* called to Hagar out of heaven, and said unto her, What aileth thee, Hagar? fear not; for God hath heard the voice of the lad where he is.
Gen 21:18 Arise, lift up the lad, and hold him in thine hand; for I will make him a great nation.

Who would make a great nation of the lad? Surely not a mere angel, but actually Jesus Christ Himself.


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Now let's look at the story of Abraham and Isaac-

Gen 22:1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.
Gen 22:2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

God speaks to Abraham, giving him instructions to follow. Look who speaks to Abraham next-

Gen 22:11 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

Gen 22:15 And the *angel of the LORD* called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
Gen 22:16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

Who will bless Abraham and multiply his seed? Notice the transition from *angel of the LORD* in verse 15 to the LORD (Jesus Christ) in verse 16?


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Now on to Jacob-

Gen 31:11 And the *angel of God* spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.

Who does this messenger identify Himself as?-

Gen 31:13 I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me: now arise, get thee out from this land, and return unto the land of thy kindred.

This vow of Jacob's is found in Gen 28-

Gen 28:20 And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,
Gen 28:21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
Gen 28:22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

So the *angel of God* of Gen 31:11 is again none other than the LORD God (Jesus Christ).


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Now to the Israelites in the wilderness-

Exo 14:19 And *the angel of God*, which went before the camp of Israel, removed and went behind them; and the pillar of the cloud went from before their face, and stood behind them:

Who went before them?-

Exo 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:

Again, the messenger or *angel of God* is the same as the LORD.


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Now in the story of Balaam, we begin with God speaking directly to Balaam-

Num 22:20 And God came unto Balaam at night, and said unto him, If the men come to call thee, rise up, and go with them; but yet the word which I shall say unto thee, that shalt thou do.

Then a transition from God to *angel of the LORD*-

Num 22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the *angel of the LORD* stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

So guess who was standing before Balaam? None other than Jesus Christ. The *angel of the LORD* is used many times in verses 23,24,25,26,31,32,34,35 and the LORD in verses 28,31. Then continuing in Chapter 23 God meets Balaam in verse 4 and the LORD is mentioned in verses 5 and 16. These titles are being used interchangeably. In each case it is again referring to the LORD Jesus Christ.


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Now in the book of Judges-

Judg 2:1 And an *angel of the LORD* came up from Gilgal to Bochim, and said, I made you to go up out of Egypt, and have brought you unto the land which I sware unto your fathers; and I said, I will never break my covenant with you.

By now this should be easy. Just who brought the Israelites out of Egypt and made the covenant with Israel that He would never break - *an angel of the LORD* or Jesus Christ, GOD Himself? Yes, the answer is both, one and the same.

Now look who visits Gideon later in Judges-

Judg 6:11 And there came an *angel of the LORD*, and sat under an oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon threshed wheat by the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.

Note what this messenger (angel) says-

Judg 6:12 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto him, and said unto him, The LORD is with thee, thou mighty man of valour.

THE LORD IS WITH THEE ... it was indeed Jesus with Gideon, note-

Judg 6:20 And the *angel of God* said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.
Judg 6:21 Then the *angel of the LORD* put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there rose up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes. Then the *angel of the LORD* departed out of his sight.
Judg 6:22 And when Gideon perceived that he was an *angel of the LORD*, Gideon said, Alas, O Lord GOD! for because I have seen an *angel of the LORD* face to face.

Now look who (again) speaks-

Judg 6:23 And the LORD said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.

Gideon had been speaking with the LORD Jesus Christ all along.


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On to Judges 13-

Judg 13:3 And the *angel of the LORD* appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.

*Angel of God/the Lord* appears in verses 9,13, and 15-18.
Note what Manoah asks in verse 17 and the answer in verse 18:

Judg 13:17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the LORD, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
Judg 13:18 And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?

The Hebrew word translated "secret" in the King James (H6383) also can mean "wonderful". Note that this is a title for Jesus:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

So who had Manoah and his wife been speaking with?

Judg 13:21 But the *angel of the LORD* did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an *angel of the LORD*.
Judg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

They knew, it was God. But why not God the Father, you might ask?-

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

So none of these events I cite could be God the Father, He has never been seen by man or spoken to man. Clearly then, in the instances I cite, the phrase *angel of the LORD* or *angel of God* actually meant Jesus Christ, who is the *chief messenger (angel) of the LORD (God the Father)*, who has declared the Father to mankind.


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Here is a further text to consider-

Gen 48:14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
Gen 48:15 And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day,
Gen 48:16 The *Angel which redeemed me* from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.

Notice that Israel was talking about God and then transitioned to an angel-

God, --- before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk
God --- which fed me all my life long unto this day
The *Angel --- which redeemed me* from all evil
(*the Angel* that) --- bless the lads; and let my name be named on them
(*the Angel* that) --- let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth

This is referring back to Gen 28:13-15 and the Lord's promise to Jacob (Israel)-

Gen 28:13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
Gen 28:14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.
Gen 28:15 And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.
Gen 28:16 And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

So in Gen 48:16 Israel is speaking of God as a redeeming angel. Again, not angel the sense of a created being, but rather in the generic sense of the word, meaning messenger. What created angel could redeem anyone? None. Redemption is found only in Jesus Christ, the very Son of God, and that is exactly who Jacob (Israel) had been speaking with and about. Jesus was, and is, that redeeming angel (messenger) sent from God the Father. A similar passage referring to Jesus as a redeeming angel is in Isaiah:

Isa 63:7 I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses.
Isa 63:8 For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.
Isa 63:9 In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.


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In Daniel, when the three Hebrew boys were cast into the fiery furnace for not bowing down to the golden statue, not three but four figures were seen in the furnace:

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Now most Christians would agree that this was indeed Jesus Christ, the Son of God, who walked with them in the furnace, in a pre-incarnation appearance. Yet, verse 28, interestingly enough, describes the fourth figure as an angel:

Dan 3:28 Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, who hath sent his *angel*, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.


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The Angel of the Covenant

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

The messenger of the covenant spoken of here in Malachi is clearly a reference to Jesus Christ, and His first and second coming. The word translated as messenger in Mal 3:1 is the same word [H4397, mal'ak] used in the previous passages of the old testament where we saw the phrase angel of the Lord. So this would also be a proper translation:

Mal 3:1 Behold, I will send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the angel of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

In fact, this is how the Catholic Douay Rheims Bible translates this verse:

CHAPTER 3.

Christ shall come to his temple, and purify the priesthood. They that continue in their evil ways shall be punished: but true penitents shall receive a blessing.

Mal 3:1 Behold* I send my angel, and he shall prepare the way before my face. And presently the Lord, whom you seek, and the angel of the testament, whom you desire, shall come to his temple. Behold he cometh, saith the Lord of hosts.

* Matt. 11:10; Mark 1:2; Luke 1:17; and 7:27.

The first angel or messenger mentioned in the verse alludes to John the Baptist, who preceded Jesus Christ and prepared the way for Him, but the angel of the testament / covenant who comes to His temple is clearly Jesus Christ. So Jesus is described in scripture as the *angel or messenger of the covenant*. That covenant likely being the one made to Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:15, that a redeemer would come to rescue a fallen humanity, or in addition, as we have previously noted, it was Jesus who appeared to Moses on Mount Sinai in the burning bush, and He also gave the Ten Commandments to Moses on tables of stone, which were placed in the container known as the ark of the covenant.

Therefore, in Malachi both John the Baptist and Jesus Christ are referred to as angels, or messengers, in the broadest sense of the meaning of the word. An angel in scripture can simply be a messenger, without meaning the created heavenly winged-being that most associate with the term. This is the key point to be made, Jesus can be referred to as an angel (messenger) without detracting from His deity in any way at all.

So now, what of Michael the archangel? Is it so difficult to believe that he may actually be Jesus Christ? Let's look at each instance he is mentioned in the Bible and see-

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #1

1 Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the *archangel*, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Who raises the dead with His voice? Not a created angel, indeed not even a created archangel. The shout is given with the voice of the *archangel*, the LORD Jesus Christ Himself:

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
John 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
John 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

It is the voice of Jesus Christ (the Son of man) that raises the dead. Just as 1 Th 4:16 says, the Lord Jesus shall descend from heaven and shout with the voice of the Archangel, because He is the Archangel. With that shout, the righteous dead will be raised from their graves!

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #2

Jude 1:9 Yet *Michael the archangel*, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

This verse is a virtual duplicate of another Old Testament event-

Zec 3:1 And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the *angel of the LORD*, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
Zec 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

In both Jude 9 and Zech 3:1-2 it is Jesus, the *angel of the LORD* who is also *Michael the archangel*, contending with Satan for both Moses and Joshua.

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #3

Dan 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, *Michael*, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia

The prince of the kingdom of Persia is a reference to Satan, and Michael refers again to Jesus. It is the created angel Gabriel that is speaking with Daniel (See Dan 8:16, 9:21). The reference to Michael as one of the chief princes probably alludes to the Trinity, with Jesus being one part of the triune Godhead.

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #4

Dan 10:21 But I will show thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Gabriel says that only he and Michael know certain truths which Gabriel will reveal to Daniel. Who could this Michael be but Jesus, God Himself, giving Gabriel the truths to reveal to Daniel?

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #5

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people:

Michael standing up is a reference to the second coming of Jesus at the end of time.

Some might propose that, in these three preceding texts from Daniel, the description of Michael as a mere prince is inappropriate for Jesus, so it must be speaking of a created angel. Note the following verses:

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Acts 3:14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you;
Acts 3:15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.

Acts 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #6

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, ...

Who leads the angelic host of heaven, who is their captain?

Josh 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Josh 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as *captain of the host* of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Josh 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

Notice that Joshua worshipped the *captain of the Host*? If this were a mere angel, then the angel would have protested Joshua worshipping him, just as the angel protested John the Revelator worshipping him (Rev 22:8-9). So Joshua met with God (Jesus Christ) the *captain of the Host*. That is why he stood on holy ground and was asked to remove his shoes (just like Moses was asked in Exo 3:5 and Acts 7:33). Therefore, in Rev 12:7 you have Satan and his angels, and Jesus (Michael, the *captain of the Host*) and His angels - this was the war that began in heaven and continues today.

And what does the name Michael mean? It means *who (is) like God?* A very good question indeed - who is like Jesus?

As this study shows, according to scriptures, Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the angel of the covenant, the Archangel Michael, who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people. Michael is just another title for the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh, the principle messenger of the gospel (archangel) to humanity, but He is not a created being.

(Claudia in the future if you can't reference your work (above) without linking it to an SDA site, it will be deleted. Plagiarism is forbidden.)
DHK
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Church Fathers and Catholic Sources on Christophanies


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Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons: Against Heresies book III, chapter 6:

2. Wherefore, as I have already stated, no other is named as God, or is called Lord, except Him who is God and Lord of all, who also said to Moses, "I AM THAT I AM. And thus shalt thou say to the children of Israel: He who is, hath sent me unto you;" and His Son Jesus Christ our Lord, who makes those that believe in His name the sons of God. And again, when the Son speaks to Moses, He says, "I am come down to deliver this people." For it is He who descended and ascended for the salvation of men.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103306.htm


Irenaeus, bishop of Lyons: Against Heresies book IV, chapter 10:

1. ... "For if ye had believed Moses, ye would also have believed Me; for he wrote of Me;" [saying this,] no doubt, because the Son of God is implanted everywhere throughout his writings: at one time, indeed, speaking with Abraham, when about to eat with him; at another time with Noah, giving to him the dimensions [of the ark]; at another; inquiring after Adam; at another, bringing down judgment upon the Sodomites; and again, when He becomes visible, and directs Jacob on his journey, and speaks with Moses from the bush.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103410.htm


ST. CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA also says it was the Saviour who spoke from the burning bush:

"The Saviour has many tones of voice, and many methods for the salvation of men; by threatening He admonishes, by upbraiding He converts, by bewailing He pities, by the voice of song He cheers. He spake by the burning bush, for the men of that day needed signs and wonders."

See: http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/020801.htm


THE FIRST APOLOGY OF JUSTIN MARTYR.
Chapter LXIII.[63] - How God Appeared to Moses.

And all the Jews even now teach that the nameless God spake to Moses; whence the Spirit of prophecy, accusing them by Isaiah the prophet mentioned above, said "The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib; but Israel doth not know Me, and My people do not understand."131 And Jesus the Christ, because the Jews knew not what the Father was, and what the Son, in like manner accused them; and Himself said, "No one knoweth the Father, but the Son; nor the Son, but the Father, and they to whom the Son revealeth Him."132 Now the Word of God is His Son, as we have before said. And He is called Angel and Apostle; for He declares whatever we ought to know, and is sent forth to declare whatever is revealed; as our Lord Himself says, "He that heareth Me, heareth Him that sent Me."133 From the writings of Moses also this will be manifest; for thus it is written in them, "And the Angel of God spake to Moses, in a flame of fire out of the bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, the God of Jacob, the God of thy fathers; go down into Egypt, and bring forth My people."134 And if you wish to learn what follows, you can do so from the same writings; for it is impossible to relate the whole here. But so much is written for the sake of proving that Jesus the Christ is the Son of God and His Apostle, being of old the Word, and appearing sometimes in the form of fire, and sometimes in the likeness of angels; but now, by the will of God, having become man for the human race, He endured all the sufferings which the devils instigated the senseless Jews to inflict upon Him; who, though they have it expressly affirmed in the writings of Moses, "And the angel of God spake to Moses in a flame of fire in a bush, and said, I am that I am, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob," yet maintain that He who said this was the Father and Creator of the universe.

http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-46.htm


Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, chapter 113:

" ... I have proved that it was Jesus who appeared to and conversed with Moses, and Abraham, and all the other patriarchs without exception,..."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/01284.htm


Entry on Angels, Catholic Encyclopedia online:

As an instance of how convinced some of the Fathers were in holding the opposite view, we may note Theodoret's words (In Exod.): "The whole passage (Exodus 3) shows that it was God who appeared to him. But (Moses) called Him an angel in order to let us know that it was not God the Father whom he saw -- for whose angel could the Father be? -- but the Only-begotten Son, the Angel of great Counsel" (cf. Eusebius, Hist. Eccles., I, ii, 7; St. Irenaeus, Haer., iii, 6).

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm


Eusebius Pamphili, Bishop of Cæsarea in Palestine, Hist. Eccles., I, ii, 7

Chapter 2. Summary view of the pre-existence and divinity of our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ.

... You will perceive also from the same words that this was no other than he [Jesus] who talked with Moses. For the Scripture says in the same words and with reference to the same one, "When the Lord saw that he drew near to see, the Lord called to him out of the bush and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, What is it? And he said, Draw not nigh hither; loose thy shoe from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. And he said unto him, I am the God of thy fathers, the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob."

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250101.htm


TERTULLIAN, AN ANSWER TO THE JEWS, (Adversus Iudaeos)

TRANSLATED BY THE REV. S. THELWALL.

CHAP. IX. -- OF THE PROPHECIES OF THE BIRTH AND ACHIEVEMENTS OF CHRIST

... For He who ever spake to Moses was the Son of God Himself; who, too, was always seen.169 For God the Father none ever saw, and lived.170 And accordingly it is agreed that the Son of God Himself spake to Moses, and said to the people, "Behold, I send mine angel before thy" - that is, the people's - "face, to guard thee on the march, and to introduce thee into the land which I have prepared thee: attend to him, and be not disobedient to him; for he hath not escaped171 thy notice, since my name is upon him."172 For Joshua was to introduce the people into the land of promise, not Moses. Now He called him an "angel," on account of the magnitude of the mighty deeds which he was to achieve (which mighty deeds Joshua the son of Nun did, and you yourselves read), and on account of his office of prophet announcing (to wit) the divine will; just as withal the Spirit, speaking in the person of the Father, calls the forerunner of Christ, John, a future "angel," through the prophet: "Behold, I send mine angel before Thy" - that is, Christ's - "face, who shall prepare Thy way before Thee."173 Nor is it a novel practice to the Holy Spirit to call those "angels" whom God has appointed as ministers of His power. For the same John is called not merely an "angel" of Christ, but withal a "lamp" shining before Christ: for David predicts, "I have prepared the lamp for my Christ;"174 and him Christ Himself, coming "to fulfil the prophets,"175 called so to the Jews. "He was," He says, "the burning and shining lamp;"176 as being he who not merely "prepared His ways in the desert,"177 but withal, by pointing out "the Lamb of God,"178 illumined the minds of men by his heralding, so that they understood Him to be that Lamb whom Moses was wont to announce as destined to suffer. Thus, too, (was the son of Nun called) Joshua, on account of the future mystery179 of his name: for that name (He who spake with Moses) confirmed as His own which Himself had conferred on him, because He had bidden him thenceforth be called, not "angel" nor "Oshea," but "Joshua." Thus, therefore, each name is appropriate to the Christ of God-that He should be called Jesus as well (as Christ).

169 Comp. Num. xii. 5-8.
170 Comp. Ex. xxxiii. 20; John i. 18, xiv. 9; Col. i. 15; Heb. i. 3.
171 Oehler and others read "celavit"; but the correction of Fr. Junius and Rig., "celabit," is certainly more agreeable to the LXX. and the Eng. ver.
172 Ex. xxiii. 20, 21.
173 Mal. iii. 1: comp. Matt. xi. 10; Mark i. 2; Luke vii. 27.
174 See Ps cxxxii. 17 (cxxi. 17 in LXX.).
175 Matt. v. 17, briefly; a very favourite reference with Tertullian.
176 John v. 35
177 Comp. reference 8, p. 232; and Isa. xl. 3, John i. 23.
178 See John i. 29, 36.
179 Sacramentum.

[ January 26, 2006, 11:57 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

Boanerges,

Your question about Michael being worshipped can be answered in
ARCHANGEL / MICHAEL TEXT #6

in the post above

 

First, you can not be serious about the 1 Thes. 4:16 passage. How could Jesus/Michael (as you are calling him) descend with shout of the archangel and blow the trumpet of God all at the same time. Try shouting out loud and blowing a trumpet at the exact same time. It can't be done. Therefore, the text must mean that the archangel acts as a herald for the return of the exhalted Christ, and another angel sounds the trumpet.

All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to Jesus (Matt.28:18). Therefore, the devil and all demons must obey His every command. It is only by the power of the name of Jesus Christ that the apostles (and us today) are able to cast out the enemy and his demons. Likewise, the passage says nothing about Moses being raised from the dead. It only says that Michael and the devil were contending over the body.

Scripture never contradicts itself. So if you are going to hold to all of the interpretations that you have outlined above you have to make them work with the clear teaching of Hebrews 1:5-14 regarding Jesus and the angels.

 

Alot of people make an issue out of Seventh Day Adventists teaching that Michael the Archangel and Jesus are one and the same... claiming that it must mean that we view Jesus as a "created being" which is entirely untrue.

Jesus isnt an "Angel" as we normally think of the word... in the Bible, the word "Angel" often just means "Messenger of God, which Jesus was... the chief Messenger of God in fact.

Even John the Baptist was referred to as an "Angel of God" but of course we know he was not an actual "Angel".

Jesus is the chief of Angels, Lord over the Angels... the "Captain of the Hosts" of Angels.

Matter of fact, it is the voice of Jesus Himself who will raise the dead at the second coming:

1Thes:4:16: For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first

Recall it was the voice of Jesus who raised Lazarus from the dead when He said "Lazarus, Come Forth!"

Jn:11:43: And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.

That would be the loud voice of Jesus, otherwise known as "Michael the Archangel". That same voice that is going to raise the dead out of their graves at the second coming.

Jesus is coming with "his angels" because He is "Captain of the Hosts"...
Mt:16:27: For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.


It is Biblical symbolism.... to refer to Jesus as Michael the Archangel.

Rv:12:7: And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8: And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9: And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10: And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Its just like how in the passage above, Lucifer who became Satan, was referred to as the "Dragon"...


It does not mean that we believe Jesus was a created being, or any such thing as that.


Claudia

[ January 26, 2006, 12:28 AM: Message edited by: Claudia_T ]

 

Your kidding Bible-boy, aren’t you? No, please tell me your kidding. There is no way that you would compare God to a man, and say that God can’t do something because we can’t, right. Surely you are not seriously saying this, are you?

First, the scripture does not say that anyone will be blowing a trumpet. It says that the Lord Himself will shout, with the voice of the archangel, and the trump of God. I guarantee you that the trump of God is unlike any noise you or anyone else on this earth has ever heard. It is the trump of God, not a trumpet blown by an angel. Perhaps it will be something like that which the children of Israel heard when God descended upon the mountain and spoke with them, only on a much larger scale, which the entire world will here.


Exod 19:16-19 16 And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that was in the camp trembled.
17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount.
18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly.
19 And when the voice of the trumpet sounded long, and waxed louder and louder, Moses spake, and God answered him by a voice.


Exod 20:18-19 18 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw it, they removed, and stood afar off.
19 And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.

Without question, in the above verses, it is God who makes the noise that is like an exceedingly loud trumpet. It is the voice of God that is exceedingly loud like a trumpet. This voice is the same voice that is referred to as the voice of the archangel in 1 Thess. 4:16, which is also spoken with the trump of God. What happened to Israel on the mount, is an extremely small prelude to what will happen to the entire world, when Christ returns again.

We cannot even scratch the surface of what God is capable of with our grandest imaginings. Let alone speak with a voice making many different sounds, none of which we have ever heard. How will God return to a round world, and every eye see Him at the same time? Do you not believe this because we cannot do it? Nonsense. God is far above and beyond our comprehension.

Matt 28:18 18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

Yes, all power has been given to Jesus Christ by the Father. In the end, when God’s eternal purpose in Christ has been accomplished, the Son will Submit to the Father, that God may be all in all.

There is no contradiction between what I am saying, and what Heb. 1:5-14 says. I am not saying, nor have I ever said that Christ was, or is an angel. If you have a problem with the word angel being attached to some of the names used regarding God in the bible, then you will have to take that one up with those prophets who wrote the words, not me. I am merely pointing out what seems obvious to me, that the word angel is sometimes used in reference to God in the scriptures, not that God is an angel.

Bye for now. Y. b. in C. Keith

 

You are correct God the Son, Jesus, is omnipotent and He could do anything He wants (except violate His own Holiness). However, I was thinking of the exalted Christ in His glorified human body shouting and blowing a trumpet at the same time. Anyway…

According to the authors of The Bible Knowledge Commentary:

“1 Thes. 4:16—Jesus Christ now sits at the right hand of God in heaven (Rom. 8:34; Eph. 1:20; Col. 3:1; Heb. 1:13). He will leave this position and descend to the earth. By the words the Lord Himself Paul emphasizes that it would be the same Jesus who had ascended through the clouds (cf. Acts 1:11).

The sounds mentioned in this verse—a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God—are difficult to interpret. Who will voice the loud shout? Will it be Jesus Himself (cf. John 11:43), or the archangel Michael (Dan. 10:13; Jude 9), or another angel? Is this a literal trumpet call, or was Paul speaking figuratively in describing the call of God by which He will announce the Advent of His Son (cf. 1 Cor. 15:52)? These three phenomena may all refer to the same thing, but probably they are three separate almost simultaneous announcements heralding Christ’s return. Though one’s curiosity about these aspects of the Rapture is not fully satisfied in this passage, one thing is clear: Christ’s return for His saints will be announced from heaven forcefully and dramatically.”[1]

[1] John F. Walvoord and Roy B. Zuck, The Bible Knowledge Commentary: An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, New Testament edition, Colorado Springs: Cook Communications Ministries, 2000 (pg. 704).

These scholars are way more versed in the Greek language and Biblical Theology than either you or I and even they acknowledge the difficulty in translating and interpreting this passage. However, I would chose to go with an interpretation, like the one they suggest, which does not confuse Jesus Christ with a created being (the archangel Michael).

Likewise, I have a problem with your interpretation of the archangel Michael just being another one of the names for Jesus (God the Son). My problem is that your interpretation rejects the Deity of Christ and takes away the omnipresent attribute of God that He possesses by virtue of the fact that He is God the Son, the second person of the Triune Godhead. Let me explain why. In Dan. 10:13-21 the Bible tells us of an encounter the Prophet Daniel had with an angel. Clearly this is an angel speaking to Daniel because he acknowledges that he was delayed 21 days by the prince of Persia. This angel, a created being, was limited by the dimensions of space and time. He was not omnipresent because he could not be with Daniel and with the prince of Persia at the same time.

The angel goes on to explain that, “Michael, one of the chief princes” had to come and help him get free from dealing with the prince of Persia (Dan. 10:13). This angel just referred to Michael as “one of the chief princes.” What is the problem with that statement? Michael could not be just another one of the names for Jesus (God the Son) and this angel refer to Him as “one of the chief princes.” The eternally existing Jesus, as God’s only begotten Son, the second person of the Triune Godhead, is not merely “one of the chief princes.” He is The Chief Prince . Referring to Him as merely “one of the chief princes” rejects His deity and position within the Triune Godhead.

Likewise, the Michael that this angel is talking about had to physically come to his aid in dealing with the prince of Persia. The problem here is that again we see Michael, an angel and created being, is also limited by the dimensions of space and time. The pre-incarnate Jesus being God the Son, the second person of the Triune Godhead, fully possesses God’s omnipresent attribute. Therefore, He is not limited by the dimensions of space and time. If Michael were just another one of the names for Jesus He would have already been present with His angel when dealing with the prince of Persia and the angel would not have had to wait 21 days for His (Jesus’) assistance to arrive. This becomes even more prominent when we consider the fact that the angel, a messenger from God, had been tasked to deliver a message to one of God’s prophets and was being delayed by the prince of Persia.

 

It would not due to point out "inconvenient facts" to you since you have shown that you simply "ignore them".

In this case the "inconvenient fact" is that the "Angel of the Lord" is show to be YHWH numerous times in the OT - but He is seldom "worshipped". That does not mean that He is still not really GOD appearing in the FORM of an Angel at the time.

But having said that - I don't really care about this topic as it is not actually one of the 27 doctrinal statements that define SDA beliefs NOR has it ever been! The topic in the context here is merely an "amusing toy".

 

Merely an "inconvenient fact" getting in the way of a "good story" and to be ignored by those who are seeking an entirely different point with this thread.

 

Oh wait! I have an idea! There ARE some denominations that DO teach that Jesus was in fact nothing more than a highly exaulted Angel - NOT God! Not God the SON - NOT the 2nd Person of the Trinity.

SOoooo What IF we could take advantage of the tendancy to "gloss over inconvenient facts" and present this as IF Adventists ALSO viewed Jesus that way!!

Wouldn't that be a neat trick??!!

(And then PRESTO we get this thread).

But of course those trying to debunk that noble approach above - experience the "Gloss over" that is being done to their every post.


And then at the end - when all the work is said and done - it is "not even a doctrine".

 

Merely an "inconvenient fact" getting in the way of a "good story" and to be ignored by those who are seeking an entirely different point with this thread. </font>[/QUOTE]Hello Bob,

I agree that sometimes in the OT the phrase "angel of the Lord" is used to refer to God. The Israelites undrestood full well that they could not be in the presence of God the Father. They would die. However, the Bible records these Theophanies (an appearance of God to a human; a divine manifestation). They had to have some way to describe what took place. Remember, it was not yet the fullness of time for God to reveal Jesus Christ to His creation (Gal. 4:4). Thus, they used the term "angel of the Lord."

Does that mean that God, in any one or all of the Three persons of the Triune Godhead, is actually an angel? A created being? No way.

Furthermore, beacuse the writers of the OT had to employ this type of language in order to describe a Theophany does it necessarily correspond that the "archangel Michael" is just another name for Jesus? I think not, particularly when the passage in Daniel that I quoted above makes it clear that Michael was/is not omnipresent. Likewise, it says that Michael was/is merely "one of the chief princes." Christ is not merely "one of the chief princes." He is THE (one and only) "Chief Prince." Unneseccarily linking Michael's name and title to Jesus results in a rejection of Christ's Deity.

[ January 31, 2006, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

The bible says that God is in His temple, on His throne. Do you think that because He is in His temple, and sitting upon His throne, that He is not omnipresent? When the angel of the Lord came to individuals, did this mean that He was not omnipresent? When Jacob wrestled with God, does this mean that God is not omnipresent, because a man was able to wrestle with Him? Again bible-boy, you limit God to your own understanding.

The following are Hebrew definitions of the name Michael, and the words chief, and prince.

04317 lakym Miyka'el me-kaw-ale'

from 04310 and (the prefix derivative from) 03588 and 0410, Greek 3413 Micahl; ; n pr m

AV-Michael 13; 13

Michael =" who is like God"

1) one of, the chief, or the first archangel who is described as the one who stands in time of conflict for the children of Israel
2) an Asherite, father of Sethur, one of the 12 spies of Israel
3) one of the Gadites who settled in the land of Bashan
4) another Gadite, ancestor of Abihail
5) a Gershonite Levite, ancestor of Asaph
6) one of the 5 sons of Izrahiah of the tribe of Issachar
7) a Benjamite of the sons of Beriah
8) one of the captains from Manasseh who joined David at Ziklag
9) father or ancestor of Omri, chief of the tribe of Issachar in the reign of David
10) one of the sons of Jehoshaphat who were murdered by their elder brother, Jehoram
11) father or ancestor of Zebadiah, of the sons of Shephatiah

Again, the name means, who is like God. The scripture that you are referring to calls Michael one of the chief princes. Neither of the words chief, or prince, are defined as angel. The following are their definitions.


07223 Nwvar ri'shown ree-shone' or Nvar ri'shon ree-shone'

from 07221; ;{ See TWOT on 2097 @@ '2097c'}

AV-first 129, former 26, former things 6, beginning 4, chief 3, before 3, old time 2, foremost 3, aforetime 1, misc 8; 185

adj
1) first, primary, former
1a) former (of time)
1a1) ancestors
1a2) former things
1b) foremost (of location)
1c) first (in time)
1d) first, chief (in degree)

adv
2) first, before, formerly, at first

It is obvious that the word chief in the verse in question, may not have been the best choice. It is used most often to denote being first. As it is said of Michael later in the same book, that He is the great prince, and the prince which standeth for thy people.


08269 rs sar sar

from 08323; n m; {See TWOT on 2295 @@ '2295a'}

AV-prince 208, captain 130, chief 33, ruler 33, governor 6, keeper 3, principal 2, general 1, lords 1, misc 4; 421

1) prince, ruler, leader, chief, chieftain, official, captain
1a) chieftain, leader
1b) vassal, noble, official (under king)
1c) captain, general, commander (military)
1d) chief, head, overseer (of other official classes)
1e) heads, princes (of religious office)
1f) elders (of representative leaders of people)
1g) merchant-princes (of rank and dignity)
1h) patron-angel
1i) Ruler of rulers (of God)
1j) warden


The word prince of course, is just that. Denoting a ruler. Michael is not called an angel at all in the old testament. Only in the new testament do we find Michael being called the archangel, which means chief of the angels. Christ called the angels His many times in the new testament. Christ is the head of the angels, just as He is the head of humanity, just as He is the head of all creation. In Him all things meet, and come together. In the end, when all are subject to Christ, then Christ Himself will subject Himself to the Father, that God may be all in all. This is God’s eternal purpose in Christ.


Eph 3:8-15 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
12 In whom we have boldness and access with confidence by the faith of him.
13 Wherefore I desire that ye faint not at my tribulations for you, which is your glory.
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,


Eph 1:3-10 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:


1 Cor 15:24-28 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.


Notice the following concerning your earlier comments regarding Michael saying to the devil, the Lord rebuke you. The angel of the Lord, who is called the Lord, said the very same thing to the devil when he was disputing with the Lord concerning Joshua.


Jude 1:9 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.


Zech 3:1-10 1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.
2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?
3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.
4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.
5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.
6 And the angel of the LORD protested unto Joshua, saying,
7 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.
8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH.
9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
10 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

Michael used the exact same words that God Himself used when rebuking the Satan. The following are some more definitions you might be interested in.

11. "One," or "the first of the chief princes" or archangels (#Da x:13); comp. o arcaggelov in (#Jude 9), described in (#Da x:21) as the "prince" of Israel, and in (#Da xii:1) as "the great prince which standeth" in time of conflict "for the children of thy people." All these passages in the O. T. belong to that late period of its Revelation when, to the general declaration of the angelic office, was added the division of that office into parts, and the assignment of them to individual angels. [See Angels, vol. i. p. 97 a.] This assignment served, not only to give that vividness to man’s faith in God’s supernatural agents, which was so much needed at a time of captivity, during the abeyance of his local manifestations and regular agencies, but also to mark the finite and ministerial nature of the angels, lest they should be worshipped in themselves. Accordingly, as Gabriel represents the ministration of the angels towards man, so Michael is the type and leader of their strife, in God’s name and his strength, against the power of Satan. In the O. T. therefore he is the guardian of the Jewish people in their antagonism to godless power and heathenism. In the N. T. see (#Re xii:7) he fights in heaven against the dragon—" that old serpent called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world:" and so takes part in that struggle, which is the work of the Church on earth. The nature and method of his war against Satan are not explained, because the knowledge would be unnecessary and perhaps impossible to us: the fact itself is revealed rarely, and with that mysterious vagueness which hangs over all angelic ministration, but yet with plainness and certainty.

There remains still one passage (#Jude 9); comp. (#2Pe ii:11) in which we are told that "Michael the archangel, when, contending with the Devil, he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." The allusion seems to be to a Jewish legend attached to (#De xxxiv:6). The Targum of Jonathan attributes the burial of Moses to the hands of the angels of God, and particularly of the archangel Michael, as the guardian of Israel. Later traditions (see Œcumen. in Jud. cap. i.) set forth how Satan disputed the burial, claiming for himself the dead body because of the blood of the Egyptian (#Ex ii:12) which was on Moses’ hands. The reply of Michael is evidently taken from (#Zec iii:1), where, on Satan’s "resisting" Joshua the high-priest, because of the filthy garments of his iniquity, Jehovah, or "the angel of Jehovah" (see vol. i. p. 95 b.), said unto Satan, "Jehovah rebuke thee, O Satan! Is not this a brand plucked from the fire?" The spirit of the answer is the reference to God’s mercy alone for our justification, and the leaving of all vengeance and rebuke to Him; and in this spirit it is quoted by the Apostle. {a}

The Rabbinical traditions about Michael are very numerous. They oppose him constantly to Sammael, the accuser and enemy of Israel, as disputing for the soul of Moses; as bringing the ram the substitute for Isaac, which Sammael sought to keep back, etc., etc.: they give him the title of the "great high- priest in heaven," as well as that of the "great prince and conqueror;" and finally lay it down that "wherever Michael is said to have appeared, there the glory of the Shechinah is intended." It is clear that the sounder among them, in making such use of the name, intended to personify the Divine Power, and typify the Messiah (see Schoettgen, Hor. Hebr. i. 1079, 1119, ii. 8, 15, ed. Dresd. 1742). But these traditions, as usual, are erected on very slender Scriptural foundation. A. B

{a} From unwillingness to acknowledge a reference to a mere Jewish tradition (in spite of vv. 14, 15), some have supposed St. Jude’s reference to be to (#Zec iii:1), and explained the "body of Moses" to be the Jewish, as the "body of Christ" is the Christian, Church. The whole explanation is forced; but the analogy on which the last part is based is absolutely unwarrantable; and the very attempt to draw it shows a forgetfulness of the true meaning of that communion with Christ, which is implied by the latter expression. ( Smiths Revised Bible Dictionary)


ARCHANGEL

This world is only twice used in the Bible, #1Th 4:16 Jude 1:9. In this last passage it is applied to Michael, who, in #Da 10:13,21 12:1, is described as having a special charge of the Jewish nation, and in #Re 12:7-9 as the leader of an angelic army. So exalted are the position and offices ascribed to Michael, that many think the Messiah is meant. ( American Tract Society Bible Dictionary)


11) "The archangel" (#Jude 1:9). Probably also the unnamed archangel of #1Th 4:16 is Michael. In the Old Testament he is mentioned by name only in Daniel. He is "one of the chief princes" (#Da 10:13), the "prince" of Israel (#Da 10:21), "the great prince" (#Da 12:1); perhaps also "the prince of the host" (#Da 8:11). In all these passages Michael appears as the heavenly patron and champion of Israel; as the watchful guardian of the people of God against all foes earthly or devilish. In the uncanonical apocalyptic writings, however, Jewish angelology is further developed. In them Michael frequently appears and excretes functions similar to those which are ascribed to him in Daniel. He is the first of the "four presences that stand before God"—Michael, Gabriel, Raphael and Uriel or Phanuel (En 9:1; 40:9). In other apocryphal books and even elsewhere in En, the number of archangels is given as 7 (En 20:1-7; Tobit 12:15; compare also #Re 8:2). Among the many characterizations of Michael the following may be noted: He is "the merciful and long-suffering" (En 40:9; 68:2,3), "the mediator and intercessor" (Ascension of Isaiah, Latin version 9:23; Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, Levi 5; Da 6). It is he who opposed the Devil in a dispute concerning Moses’ body (#Jude 1:9). This passage, according to most modern authorities, is derived from the apocryphal Assumption of Moses (see Charles’ edition, 105-10). It is Michael also who leads the angelic armies in the war in heaven against "the old serpent, he that is called the Devil and Satan" (#Re 12:7 ). According to Charles, the supplanting of the "child" by the archangel is an indication of the Jewish origin of this part of the book.

The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in #Re 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel (for a full discussion see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairn’s BD).

John A. Lees (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)


Isa 9:6 6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

The word prince in the above verse, is the same Hebrew word used in Daniel 10:13, which we are discussing. There is no question that it is a reference to God.


Dan 8:11 11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Same in the above.


Dan 9:25 25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

Same in the above.


Josh 5:13-15 13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
15 And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

The word captain in the above verses is also the same Hebrew word, again it is used in reference to God.

Isa 41:4 4 Who hath wrought and done it, calling the generations from the beginning? I the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he.


Isa 44:6 6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.


Isa 48:11-13 11 For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another.
12 Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.


The word first in all the above verses, is the same word translated as chief in Daniel 10:13 also. In these verses it is a clear reference to the Lord.

I’m sure this post is getting to long. Bye for now.

Y. b. in C. Keith

 

While it is certainly true that "real Angels" are limited by space and time just as are "real humans" - it is NOT true that when we see God presented in Gen 18 as "a man" that God is "not really God".

The point being - God is "allowed" to present Himself "as a man" even though we KNOW that humans are limited in space and time - God is not!

We do not read Gen 18 and then suppose "God was bound by space and time as long as Abraham saw Him in the form of a man". Such guesswork is never endorsed by scripture.

The point is whether or not you think that Michael is merely an assumed form for God the Son or a real Angel that is not God the Son at all - you could never use an argument like the one above that would be charging Moses with error for recording the Gen 18 event.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Again - this logic fails the test of scripture.

Moses is told to take his shoes off because of the presence of the Lord.

Israel is forbidden to touch the mountain due to the presence of the Lord.

The priests were forbidden to enter the Most Holy Place due to the presence of the Lord.

Abraham sees God in the form of a man walking toward him. He also sees the symbols of God's presence pass between the sacrificed animals when making the covenant with God.

There are numerous examples in scripture where God's presence "comes" to a certain spot. This does not deny His omnipresence. Christ said "I have not yet ascended to the Father" in John 20 and says "I GO TO My Father and your Father - My God and your God".

Making things up about how that "does not allow God to be God" is not helping the argument for or against Michael - because it breaks down when viewed in scripture.

Certainly there are Bible based arguments that could be made against the idea that Michael is a form that God the Son takes on -- but these are not examples of them.

In Christ,

Bob

 

The point that you both seem to be missing is that the text in Daniel makes it clear that the Michael that is being talked about is not omnipresent. He is limited by space and time. God is not limited in that way and is always omnipresent. Therefore, the archangel Michael can not be just another name for Christ. I am not trying to make the argument that when God appears in a Theophany He is somehow no longer omnipresent.

 

Actually the text makes no more reference to Michael being limited than the other texts I gave show that GOD is limited when GOD's presence is said to be HERE but not THERE (as in the burning bush for example or the MHP or ...).

In other words you are inferring your own extended restrictions INTO Dan 10 that don't work in any other part of scripture to restrict God much less Daniel 10.

To make your case you have to show how the "presence" of Michael or God the Father in one place LIMITS only Michael. In these cases the text does not say anything other than - that is where he WAS. (As it shows in several places where God was).

You say (but the text does not) "He is limited by space and time.". You say it because "HE CAME to some PLACE" but we see the same thing with God in the serveral instances I gave.

You do not respond to that point at all to make your case. So the argument does not advance.

Having said that - I am not arguing in favor of Michael as a name for God the Son per se -- I am just saying you need a more direct argument against it.

In Christ,

Bob