God's Purpose Accord to Election

What does the Scripture say?

" What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
13 Their throat [is] an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps [is] under their lips:
14 whose mouth [is] full of cursing and bitterness:
15 their feet [are] swift to shed blood:
16 destruction and misery [are] in their ways:
17 and the way of peace have they not known:
18 there is no fear of God before their eyes." ( Romans 3:9-18 )

I think it's clear.
But to help, I've bolded the pronouns in order to help you see what I see.

It isn't that some are prone, and some aren't.
Read the language...
Just because not everyone is as bad ( outwardly ) as can possibly be, God tells us the above about all men, in their natures.
Therefore, even the nicest person on earth tells God to "talk to the hand", according to God's word.

Do you know anyone who hasn't told a lie?
I don't.
Then they fall under verse 13.

Do you know anyone who has not wished someone dead in a moment of anger or passion?
I don't.
Then they fall under verses 13-15.

Do you know of anyone who has not "cussed"? Ever? Even in a moment of anger?
Neither do I.
They fall under verse 14.

Do you know anyone who genuinely respects God and His ways, before they became a believer?
Neither do I.
They all fall under verse 18...

This language isn't from corrupt man's point of view, sir, it's from God's perfect and holy point of view.


None start out life with any fear ( respect ) for God.
At all.

God's word says that the fear ( respect ) of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge and understanding ( Proverbs 1:7, Proverbs 9:10 ).
So why do some "fear" and some don't?
Because He saved them from their sins, and changed their natures... while the ones that do not "fear", continue on in their darkened condition, as their natures have not been changed.




Scripture should be very clear, Rockson...

" for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;" ( Romans 3:23 )


" For [there is] not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not." ( Eccesiastes 7:20 )

If there is a just person on earth, then God made it happen, not us.

 

One has to have the Lord enable and quicken their hearts and minds in order to even being able to trust in Jesus and get saved!

 

Ephesians 2:8, ". . . ye are saved through faith . . . " ". . . through faith . . ." And in Acts 16:30-31, ". . . Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved, . . . " Here belief precedes salvation.
It is in the sovereignty of God where in "sanctification of the Spirit into obedience." (1 Peter 1:2) Sanctification precedes the obedience of faith and is what makes that obedience possible.

 

What you have emphasized is what I have been saying. It is not regeneration but sanctification prior to the obedience of faith without merit on the part of the believer.

 

One must be justified first in order to be sanctified though!

 

Unless there is given a new heart by God, the Gospel just hits dead ears!

 

Sanctification occurs first (2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

 

Sanctification occurs first (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

 

I both agree and disagree.
Why?

Because of election ( God's choice of the sinner to salvation ( Ephesians 1:3-11, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Romans 8:28-30 ) ), salvation ( when God decided who to save ) was determined before the foundation of the world.
Therefore belief succeeds ( follows after ) the point at which God decided to take a people out of the nations for His name sake.

But, belief precedes the end of our faith, the salvation of our soul ( 1 Peter 1:9 ).
It precedes when we stand at the Judgment and we are separated from the goats.


Here's an example:
"he that endures to the end shall be saved."

The key, at least to me, is the word, "be", as in present tense possessing..."be one of the".
As I see it, this doesn't state what many people think it does:

" Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 and brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house." ( Acts of the Apostles 16:29-32 )

Some look at this statement as meaning that the Philippian jailer would gain salvation by the act of belief.
I don't.
I see the Bible stating that man can do nothing to gain what is already a gift, and only a gift.

I see it as Paul telling him that whoseover believes is already saved, and will experience that salvation later on.
That, if he believed, he would BE ( present tense possessing ) saved, as in "be one of the saved".
I also carry in from other passages to help me understand this one...Scripture interpreting and defining Scripture.

Example of already being saved:

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 )

Two groups are being represented in this passage, from what I see:
1) "them that perish" ( the damned, the lost )
2) "us which ARE saved" ( not "are being saved" as many translations have it ), in which the term "are" is present tense possessing.

From my perspective, salvation is both before ( election ) and after ( believing and enduring ) a person comes to Christ.
The first is God's purpose according to election.
The second is our experience of having run the race to the finish, and being saved at the end.

One is God ( Acts of the Apostles 13:48 ).
The other is God through us, as believers ( 1 Peter 1:5 ).

If a person is truly saved, then they are elect. <------ This is providential.
If a person is saved, then they will endure to the end, and be saved. <----- This is evidential.



God made a choice, and we, as His children, experience it in "real time".
If people fall away, it's because they were never saved by God to begin with, and were tares, sown among the wheat by Christ's enemy, the accuser of the brethren.



May the Lord bless you.

 

OK Dave and thanks.

The Romans passage Paul was considering verses like Ps 14 & Ps 53 where David was using poetry and hyperbally to express his frustration of many not serving God. Was he talking about these things in an absolute literal senses? When he said in Ps 14 :4 that the ungodly eat up God's people like bread...does that mean they were cannibals? Or does that mean every single one of them is absolutely vicious towards those living spiritually?

If they were why is there the expression many use in culture, "To each their own"? or "Live and let live!" There are however times when spiritual people can be very much persecuted .....but not all times. The same as the phrase, "No one seeks God" and no indication from David in the Psalms that his or anyone else's spirit and mind needed regenerated to do that, and no the quote, "Create in me a clean heart oh God" wouldn't apply for that in and of itself would be seeking God, which David did but without being made to.

First about the lie issue from vs 13 I think you've proved my point. If we look upon this issue as matter of degrees we know the telling of one lie once in a life doesn't mean you're in the same class as another who is an continual liar describes as ones who's throat is like an open sepulcher.

And about people's feet swift to shed blood.....even if you could prove all in a moment of anger wished someone dead isn't that a far cry from saying one is swift to always have this way of thinking. And looking back I don't ever recall myself ever saying to another I wish they were dead. I do however believe in capital punishment for certain proved beyond questioned criminals but that's judicial and not emotional or born out of hate or strife.

Hold it now. You can't say no one. You've never heard one say they've never heard their spouse or parent say a cuss word their whole life? Or for a person themselves to say they've never swore? You can google "Never said a cuss word my whole life" and see what comes up. You seem like a nice fella Dave. I don't think you'd walk up and call them a liar.

So when Paul is using these scriptures he's not intending they be taken in an absolute literal sense. And when he says, "No one seeks God" he wasn't saying one can't respond to God when God seeks him. And it doesn't say he needs irresistible grace to respond positively.

 

Dave much appreciated if you'd respond to what I said about this below. You said this ==>
Because it was necessary to speak the Gospel first to the Jews as a nation ( Acts of the Apostles 13:46 ), and then it would go forth to the Gentiles. What really does that have to do with Jesus continuing to exhort them to believe? My statements below,

[My sheep hear my voice] Dave think of a sports coach. He says, "My players listen to my instructions." Does that mean they didn't have to choose to? And because they choose to they become what===>His players. If you're going to be honored to be called my players you must comply. This is what my players do! They listen to instructions of the coach and obey them! Now I'd suggest here's the key.

He says but you believe not because you are not my sheep BUT...keep in mind that believe is a verb which means an action. That means you could say BUT you're not obedient because you already have within you to resist me as your coach. My players (or sheep) have the characteristic of wanting to listen and carry out my wishes.

You don't so therefore you're not my sheep. BUT such doesn't mean they couldn't have or sorry you've just lucked out. Now I showed you about 12 verses later Jesus exhorted these very people of whom he said they were not his sheep with the following,

If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him." ( John 10:31-38 )

Look at what he said! He said though you believe not me, in other words...the usual way of becoming a sheep is by believing my word....BUT....look....if you're not going to do that then at least you should look at the works and let that be convincing to you! Convince them of what? Convincing them that the Father is in him and I in him!

So....if language means anything he started off by telling them they were not his sheep and that's where Calvinists stop reading. But he still said with great longing the thought of "Look you can still become my sheep. If you look at the works it should convince you and being convinced in turn you'll believe me words! Thus becoming HIS SHEEP.

 

Do you have one passage which explicitly shows justification prior to sanctification?

 

Ok, please do this. Give a reference which explicitly shows type A "regeneration through justification sanctification." And give a reference which explicitly shows type B on going sanctification.

It is my understanding that the work of salvation begins with sanctification of the Spirit, therefore sanctification precedes it all. " . . . εν αγιασμω πνευματος . . . εις . . ." (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14).

 

I would think it should be obvious... but I'm finding out, the older I get, that not everyone who claims to be saved understands Scripture the same way I do.
I think that is why there are so many denominations.

I take it literally.
The Psalms are songs, but they contain many spiritual truths.

I don't think I've proven your point at all.
I don't look at it as a matter of degrees...I believe that I look at sin as God does:

Degrees of sin does not make any difference, as God treats all sin, in His holiness, as warranting eternal death.

From one act of complaining to 70,000 acts of them, all are infractions of His holiness.
All are disobedience towards God.
One lie is as bad as a pile of them in His sight.
All it takes is one sin to warrant eternal Hell fire ( Romans 6:23 ), because to commit one sin is to be guilty of them all ( James 2:10-1 ).

All it took was one act of disobedience on the part of Adam and Eve to warrant physical and spiritual death ( Genesis 2:16-17 ).
This is what is developed in Romans 5:12.
That is what makes the necessity of Christ's sacrifice so important...
Man's condition requires a change of heart, or God cannot trust us to have a relationship with Him for eternity.

I'm not sure why you are even asking these questions.
Again, I would think Scripture itself should be obvious:

The ungodly persecute the righteous...they "eat them up" in their actions towards them.
They lie in wait, ready to take advantage of them.
In their "heart" ( corrupt nature ), they hate the children of God, because they hate God ( John 15:18-23 ).
All men naturally hate Jesus Christ ( John 3:18-20 ) because He is God :

" And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. " ( 1 Timothy 3:16 )

In the underlined I see something the Bible calls, "man's wisdom"; To me, it has absolutely nothing to do with God's wisdom.
"To each their own" is like saying, " mankind can do anything he or she wants, their own way... instead of God's way.

You genuinely do not see it, do you?
When you read Scripture, you see no connection between man being bankrupt, morally, and God creating in someone a clean heart in order to establish a relationship with them?

David was said to be a man after God's own heart ( Acts of the Apostles 13:22 ).
How, if every man's heart is darkened ( Romans 1:18-32 )?
How, if every man at his heart is only ever hating God ( John 15:18-23, Matthew 10:22 ) and loving sin ( John 3:19-20 )?

Because God created in David a clean heart.
That is what Ezekiel said had to happen ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26 ) and what Christ said had to happen ( John 3:3-8 ). if a person is going to inherit eternal life.

I don't think I have to prove anything.
I think that God's word speaks for itself...Romans chapters 1-3 is speaking about man's corrupt condition before Him, from His perspective...not our corrupt reasoning's perspective.
His perfectly objective viewpoint, not our imperfectly subjective viewpoint.

If you are unable to accept God's perspective about mankind's condition, then I'm sorry for that.

"Hold on" what?
I can say, "No one".

A thought is as good as a deed.
For example, Matthew 5:27-28.

God says that all have sinned.
I agree with Him.
I also have sinned, countless times.
I have thought bad thoughts, I have thought about cursing someone, and even done it in anger.
A thought is as good as a word or a deed.

Sin is sin, is sin.
From God's perspective, the entire human race is sinful and profitless to Him.
The fact that He has decided to save any of us amazes me.

If someone tells me that they have never cursed another in their heart or in their thoughts, I would consider them to be a liar...because God does.

Everyone is a sinner.

Yes, he is.
That is the way I see it.

That is the only way a person responds favorably to God...if He seeks them.
Does He seek everyone?



Not according to election, He doesn't ( Romans 11:1-8 ).
I imagine that in the light of 1 Timothy 2:1-6, you may find this contradictory.

 

Because His promise of salvation was first to the nation of Israel.
Just because they did not believe, as a nation, does not mean that the promise was any less genuine.

It's not the same as Scripture.
Reasoning it out as a coach telling his players ( who are all "independent agents" with an equal say in every decision ) something is not the same as Christ declaring that His sheep will do something...they are His sheep, and they act like sheep.
Christ's sheep come when the Shepherd of their souls calls them.
They will not come when a false shepherd calls them, but will "hear" His voice and His alone.

It is a characteristic of being one of His sheep...not a "condition" that must be met.
I think that is where you are misunderstanding it, at least from my perspective.

I know what He said; I can read it just fine.
I thank you for pointing it out to me, however.
He was speaking to Israel, a nation that agreed to follow Him and His covenant.
I'm not sure why you do not understand that.

Christ is speaking spiritually, not with man's wisdom ( John 6:63, 1 Corinthians 2:6-16 ).
He's holding Israel responsible to obey the Gospel, even though He knows most will not.
Why?
Because they are His chosen, earthly nation who are bound under a covenant of Law to Him and His words.

I also think that when you read the passage, your mind jumps to the conclusion that believing is how one becomes a sheep.
I used to do this many years ago when I read His word in bits and relevant pieces ( as I'd been taught to in Independent Baptist churches ), but I now no longer do.
To me, John 10:26 should dispel that idea and cause you to re-think your conclusions, and seek out how one gets to be a sheep...
The details are in Scripture, and it literally is littered all over the place.

It's called "Election".
It was revealed to Moses, David, and others before Christ came, and to Paul, Peter, John and many others after.

I disagree.
He doesn't start off telling them that they were not His sheep.
He starts off in His last 3 years condemning them, and rightfully so, for not holding up their end of the covenant...and when faced with the very God that they made their promises to, they then balked at Him.
He starts off commanding them to repent and believe the Gospel.

He knows that He is preaching to a mixed audience ( John 6:64-65, Romans 11:1-8 ), and still, He has the right to command them...the same as at Mount Sinai.

Again, I disagree.
He did not say the above with great longing.

I happen to think that you are reading that into the text in your own way.
To me, you read the passage and very nearly skip right over the significance of Him telling them that they do not believe, because they are not of His sheep ( John 10:26 ).


If belief were by their own efforts ( instead of God's ) then that would contradict His statement of them not believing because they are not His sheep.
As far as "Calvinists" stopping in their reading, I cannot speak for them;
I read the whole text, and it flows like a conversation, not a series of clear thoughts punctuated by things that confuse me ( and I skip over or try to bounce off commentaries in order to understand them deeper, like some I have met, do ).

I know very few who read the Scriptures and understand them without the help of men.
I know quite a few who think that they absolutely need men to teach them the understanding of Scripture, when they should be able to rely on God alone to do it ( 1 John 2:27, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Isaiah 54:13, John 6:45 ).
I cannot explain why I see things the way I do, only that I do.

I do know that the Holy Spirit is the believer's Teacher, and they know all things ( 1 John 2:20-21 ).
They are given teachers within the body of Christ to show them where the answers are in God's word, not to give them that understanding.

Teaching Scripture to a child of God is God's job, not man's.
It cannot be done thoroughly using secular methods of delivering subject matter, like secular institutions do it.


Each of God's children has the right and the duty to go directly to His word and learn for themselves...
To me, if a person does not think that they can do that, it is for two reasons:

1) They have been lied to and told that they cannot understand it by direct "revelation"...God giving them the correct understanding of it as individuals, instead of as part of competing "denominations" that teach it from their "seminaries".
2) They are not God's children ( John 8:47 ), even though they think they've done all the "right things" to gain salvation.



With respect, Rockson, we've been over this a fair number of times now.

I'm not trying to be mean, but I've shown you the Scriptures regarding God's choice of the sinner to salvation, and to me, they seem to just bounce off without ever being taken seriously.
You seem focused on asking me questions according to human reasoning...I'm not interested in answering what the Bible tells me is faulty human reasoning and logic, with more of the same...I'm interested in replying to the questions you may pose with what God Himself says.
I believe His words because they are my Saviour's perfect and trustable words, even if they don't immediately "make sense" to me ( John 6:66-69 ).
But I also know that the more I read His words, the more He will show me what they mean, because I know His words are understandable the more effort I put into them.

Election is part of God's word like anything else...unfortunately too many visible churches refuse to teach it, even though it is in the Bible.
Why?
Perhaps because so many find it so offensive.
I don't.
It's truth, and truth is not to be shunned, no matter how difficult or "unlikely" it is to be true.


Yes, election is hard to understand.
No, it's not impossible to understand for God's children.
I'll have to leave it at that.
If you don't see it, you don't see it, at least not the same way I do.


From here on out, I will make every effort not to reply to you on this subject any further.
We don't agree; and my trying to explain election, from my perspective, only seems to confuse you.

To me, you continue to see salvation as an "offer" and as something that, in effect, becomes a reward when all the conditions to gain it, are met.
I see it as a gift, through no effort of my own.
I see it as something that happened to me, not something I made happen.

I cannot change your thinking, and you cannot change mine.
I see Scripture one way, and you appear to see it another.



I wish you well, sir, and may God bless you.

 

What specifically in Romans 4?

Where do you get "first regenerated?" I understand that is your view. But honestly that as far as I can tell is a presumed assertion endemic of Calvinism, not the Bible. Based on "through sanctification of the Spirit" (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14) it is into obedience and into the calling of the gospel. So it is my understand it is the sanctification which God does to change the hears.
And faith (Acts 16:31) precedes the "regeneration" which I understand to refer to being saved, being "born of God." The instructions being to believe in order to be saved. Which those who been sanctified will do.
Ephesians 2:8, ". . . by grace are ye saved through faith . . ." Again, faith preceding the salvation.