As I said before, Catholics arent Christians

An individual can be saved regardless of the name on his/her building. Denominational affiliation is not exclusionary. If you reject this then you reject that salvation is by faith.

 

I used to share your same prejudice...er....sentiment. Thankfully, I've come to realize that people will ultimately be judged by Christ and not by one's particular interpretation of the Bible.

Again, it's too bad most of the intelligent Catholic posters have been banned and are no longer able to defend themselves here.

 

What a breathtakingly arrogant statement!Only God can decide who goes to Hell. So you're God are you? Don't you know that blasphemers go to Hell?

Really? The Bible according to whom, exactly?

That's funny - all the Catholics I know trust in the Lord Jesus Christ for their salvation. How many do you know?

<snip>

I'm sorry, but I missed the bit in the Bible which appointed you to be the judge of someone else's salvation - perhaps your Bible has that extra bit in - in which case you're under the anathema of Rev 22 and I'd be much more worried about your own salvation if I were you...

Full marks for trotting out Foxe and ignoring all the Catholics whom Protestants have put to death - but I'm not sure what Foxe has got to do with the statement that the Catholic Church has always been around; the term is mentioned by Ignatius of Antioch around 107 AD.

Oh really! And you know this how, exactly?

Jack Chick a valid source???!!!

Er...because he's a bigoted moron?

Where does it say the Eucharist is heresy and witchcraft? Certainly that verse you just quoted has got nothing to do with the subject. Read Ignatius again.

 

Very good point Charles! I agree~

 

Dude, you need to get some new friends. God will save people from across the (Christian) denominational spectrum.

Have you ever actually spent any time talking to Catholics?

 

valueoftruth is right in that the Roman Catholic Church itself is not a Christian church. It simply isn't --

That doesn't mean, however, that there are not Catholics who are Christians. Those that believe in Jesus to save them -- the Jesus of the Bible, regardless of their understanding of a lot of other things, are probably saved. The only requirement the Bible gives for salvation is 'believe'. Not just intellectual acknowledgement, but a life's dependancy.

But I do think that Roman Catholics who are Christians are Christians despite the Roman Catholic church and not because of it!

 

On what basis do you make that assertion?

 

I think it is funny that somebody who calls themself "valueoftruth" shows a total disregard for the truth. There are Christians in the Roman Catholic Church, I have met them.

 

I remember the day when opinion about the RC Church was based on a book about Moria Munk. It told of tales of happenings within a convent in Quebec. That book has been proven false over and over again.

Then, there are some who think I have gone to hell since I am a member of the Church of England, a holy catholic church, as declared in the Prayer Book. It is amazing how judgements are made based on a label.

It is like saying all baptists are heaven bound!

Cheers,

Jim

 

I guess Huss, Wycliff, Luther, and Tyndale were just concerned with labels. I think their are and were grave concerns with the RCC, more than just labels, but I don't think one can make a blanket statements about all catholics like has been made here.

 

ValueofTruth, Vielen Dank!
I am very much impressed with your courage.

He didn't say that all RC go to the hell, but they are going to the hell (mostly!)

1) Catholics and Christians are so much different each other. I would define Christians as the believers in Jesus following the Bible, even though there are differences in interpretting the Bible itself.
Catholics have : Immaculate Conception, Theotokos(Mother of God), Assumption, Mother of Church, Celibacy, Papacy, Papal Infallibility, No Salvation Outside Holy Roman Catholic Church, Idol making, Idol worshipping, Mass of ever-asking sin-forgiveness, Magic Show by Transubstantiation, Clergy system, Holy Father and Monsignor (Blasphemy to God), Extreme Unction, Purgatory, Limbo, Inquisition, Infant Baptism, and more products with the brand mark of Holy Roman Catholic.

Which one of two groups is correct may be the next question, but first of all, two groups are too much different each other. Therefore we should call them as different religions. Which money bill is genuine and which one is fake can be identified by machines. In this case, Bible is the tool to clarify which group is correct.

2. There have been many true believers among the Roman Catholics. For example, Thomas A Kempis is one of such person. However, after many reformed churches became available, preaching on the surface of the world, the ratio or number of the born-again believers inside RC has diminished greatly, I think. Even after the Reformation, there were some true RC's who were born-again in the Lord like Charles Chiniquy who tried to reform remaining inside RC. Chiniquy remained inside RC for 50 years, but eventually concluded that RC is a pagan religion, at the end.
He was changed so much after he was born again, then preached the gospel to the Roman Catholic people, then Bishops expelled him out of office, over 5000 people followed him and more than 15,000 gathered to listen to his message in Illinois area. He was once accused for sexual misconduct by Bishops, which was untrue, but because he condemned the alcoholics and supporting the slavery by Bishops and RC's. None of the lawyers dare to defend him against Holy Roman Catholic Church. At that time he sent a message to Abraham Lincoln, who clearly agreed to be a defense attorney for Chiniquy.
The whole story is here:
http://www.pacinst.com/terrorists/chapter4/lincoln.html
which tells about Jesuit connection with Abraham Lincoln's assassination.

Chinquiy's personal life:
http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/fiftyc.htm

So, I would say that the number of true believers among RC has been greatly diminished since I have tried to talk with so many RC's in my life and they have totally different concept of salvation than what we know from the Bible.

3. Yes, only God is the final Judge who can go to Heaven and who should turn to the Hell.
I would accept Brian's comment as the strong emphasis of the scarcity of the saved people among the RC's, which is true in reality.

4. If any one is truly born again in Lord and saved by the Blood of Jesus, she or he would not stay in RCC, because Holy Spirit inside them teaches the followings are wrong and blasphemy to God:

Immaculate Conception, Theotokos(Mother of God), Assumption, Mother of Church, Celibacy, Papacy, Papal Infallibility, No Salvation Outside Holy Roman Catholic Church, Idol making, Idol worshipping, Mass of ever-asking sin-forgiveness, Magic Show by Transubstantiation, Clergy system, Holy Father and Monsignor (Blasphemy to God), Extreme Unction, Purgatory, Limbo, Inquisition, Infant Baptism, and more products with the brand mark of Holy Roman Catholic.

5. More than anything else, Concept of Salvation in Roman Catholic is different from that of true believers. This is why they conduct Mass every week, where they continue to ask God to forgive what they sinned during the week, because they had no conviction that all the sins were already forgiven. They continue to ask the forgiveness but never bring the answer from God. So, their concept of Being born-again is quite theoretical.

6. Catholics deny what they did in the past, by Inquisition, but there are crucial evidences from themselves. Their own declaration proves that Papacy ordered such atrocities of Inquisitions. Their own decrees and Bulls say the above mentioned doctrines, even though they change their theories from time to time to adapt to the changing environments.

Brian, Haben Sie Pilgrim Church von Boradbent gelesen?

 

Demographically at least, Catholics are Christians. Whether individual Catholics are saved is up to our ultimate Judge to decide and if it is with a theological checklist, none of us would be saved since none of us is perfect in our theology.

At the same time, it is very important that we have right doctrine and teaching from God's holy and authoritative scriptures.

 

When we preach the Gospel to the people, we must know whether they were already saved or not. Some people including children misunderstand that they are already saved, even though they are not actually. In such case, we should discern their faith.
Satan may ask us to postpone the judgment asking us who can judge someone's salvation except God?
It will help Satan send the people to the hell, without having the chance to be challenged by the Gospel.


Apostle Paul was not perfect but he said:

Phil 4:2 I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord. 3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life .

How could John say this ?
1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us

How could you preach the gospel to the nominal churchmen who are not actually born-again?

Have you ever examine yourself this way?
2 Cor 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you , except ye be reprobates.

You may say yes! But so many people will go to Jesus with the expectation that they enter the heaven, but will be denied by Jesus this way:


Matthew 7:23
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


In this aspect, when we look at Roman Catholic, there are lots of deviation from the Bible, even though they deny it.
At least when we look at their teachings on Salvation, we find that they continue to ask for the forgiveness because the Eternal redemption once for all is not believed by them. Even though they claim that they have the conviction of forgiveness of sins, they still insist that they should ask God to forgive their sins. Why? they don't have the conviction of Salvation-forgiveness of sins. They don't believe their future sins were already forgiven. How can they say that they believe Jesus while they don't believe what Jesus has done already?
If they continue to ask God to forgive their sins, it means that God should send Jesus again and let Him be killed again!

We should confess our sins every day but the confession is different from asking the forgiveness ! They ask and ask, because they have never received the firm committment that all the sins were already forgiven!

This is the fundamental difference between the true believers and RCC.
If RCC maintain this kind of problem, how can we say that there is a salvation in RCC in general?

Yes, there can be some true believers inside RCC, who received Gospel from other sources than RC itself.

[ January 25, 2006, 12:59 AM: Message edited by: Eliyahu ]

 

Has anybody bothered to read the Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent?

http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent/trentall.html

See how many times the word "anathema" is used.

ON THE SACRAMENTS IN GENERAL

CANON I.-If any one saith, that the sacraments of the New Law were not all instituted by Jesus Christ, our Lord; or, that they are more, or less, than seven, to wit, Baptism, Confirmation, the Eucharist, Penance, Extreme Unction, Order, and Matrimony; or even that any one of these seven is not truly and properly a sacrament; let him be anathema.

There are 13 Canons in this section (13 Anathemas)

ON BAPTISM

CANON III.-If any one saith, that in the Roman church, which is the mother and mistress of all churches, there is not the true doctrine concerning the sacrament of baptism; let him be anathema.

I don't need to go on--you can read the above link for yourself.

Anathema means accursed (Gal.1:8-9)

Baptism is not a sacrament--it is an ordinance.

Sacrament: In present religious usage, sacrament refers to an outward and visible sign of an inward and spiritual grace. The term sacrament is used by the Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox, and certain Protestant denominations to describe their ordinances.

Ordinance: An observance or ceremony; judgments; statutes.

If anybody is doing any "bashing" it is the RCC--they anathematize anyone who doesn't believe as they do.

 

And have you read the Lutheran-Catholic Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification, which puts the above in its proper context?

 

I don't need to read it--I'll stick with the Bible.

 

Interpreted by whom?

 

Linda,

With all due respect, you can't put something out there and then somebody else tries to put it in context and you refuse to read it. It's like reading half a book and then forming your own ending to suit your position. I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your stance, more so your decision to toss something out there and then when challenged, you refuse to entertain the context of your original argument.