God's Purpose Accord to Election

Regeneration is when God grants new heart and mind!

 

One must be justified in order to be sanctified!

 

That is interpretation. Faith precedes regeneration. It is in sanctification in which the faith occurs. (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14)

 

Reference which states that?

 

Happens after faith.

 

Required in order to have saving faith though!

 

According to what?
This?

" In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise," ( Ephesians 1:13 )

if not, then what passage are you referring to?
Apologies, I realize you were directing your answer to Y1, but I thought I'd reply.
This will be a bit lengthy, but please bear with me.



Here I see that after a person believes on Christ, they are then indwelt ( sealed ) with the Spirit.
I see no regeneration taking place here.

However...I didn't always understand it that way, either.
One day it just came to me as I was reading this epistle for about the 3rd time, " look at the word, "sealing"..."
Then, in my mind, I remembered this:

" And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." ( Ephesians 4:30 )

" But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." ( Romans 8:9 )



In my understanding of Scripture, the point at which the Spirit of God comes into and dwells within a person, is "sealing"...
Not "regeneration" ( being born again of a new nature ).

Regeneration ( Titus 3:5-6 ) is the same as being born again ( John 3:3 ), being born of God ( John 1:13, 1 John 2:29, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:1, 1 John 5:18 ) and having the stony heart replaced with one of "flesh", that is soft towards God ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:24-28 ).

At what point does this happen?
Good question.
To me, that's one that has plagued "theologians" for centuries.

As I see it, there are no Scriptures that declare it blatantly, if one does not know what to look for.
Some say "point of drawing" ( John 6:44 ), when the Lord draws a person to Himself. They then conclude that in order for a person to be "drawn" to God, their heart must first be changed. I see no problem with that, in light of Romans chapters 1-3.

Some say there is a new heart when God formed one of His elect...from birth.
I disagree.
Why?

" among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." ( Ephesians 2:3 )
I see the old nature as being present before we are "called" by God's word...the Gospel of our salvation.

" But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, ( by grace ye are saved; )" ( Ephesians 2:4-5 )
"Quickened" means, "made alive" or "regenerated", from my perspective.

" Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead," ( 1 Peter 1:3 ).
"Begotten us again" also refers to the new birth.
This says it happened by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, if I'm reading it right.

" being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." ( 1 Peter 1:23 ).
Here I see that it happened by the word of God.
The spoken or "heard" word?
Then it happened when one "heard" the Gospel.


The "Arminian" / "Semi-Pelagian" way of thought sees it happening at point of belief, but they use Ephesians 1:13 as proof...sorry, I have to disagree with the usage of this passage as when being born again takes place.
The word is "sealed", not "regenerated", not "born again", not "born from above", not "born of God."

I see the word "sealed" like this:

" Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah." ( 1 Samuel 16:13 )

" This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" ( Galatians 3:21 )

To me, "sealing" is the receiving of the Holy Spirit from God...it is not "regeneration".
Being born again is a totally separate thing, which may or may not happen exactly at point-of-belief.

Thus far, I agree with the "Calvinist".
It happens at or before point-of-belief...
Not after belief.

That's the best I can do for now.



I do know this:
Faith is a fruit of the spirit:

" But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law." ( Galatians 5:22-23 )

So, based on what I see here, one must already have the Spirit indwelling them to have faith ( real faith, the kind that endures trials and tribulations, not "mental assent" ), because it is a fruit.
Anyone can "believe all the right things" about Jesus Christ, and still end up in Hell; It's called "religion"...but genuine faith comes from God ( Ephesians 2:8, Hebrews 12:2 ), and it always accompanies the new birth and the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

In addition, belief does not "trigger" the new birth...it accompanies it or follows it, but does not precede it.
John 1:13 is clear, at least to me.

" which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

The will of men and their actions plays no part in determining if a person will be born of God.
God's purpose according to election, does.




May He bless you in your studies, and may you take comfort in Him always.

 

Ephesians 1:13 is a good example. Now faith is much broader in scope. Faith is a result of truth. Natural revelation (Romans 10:17-18) by which all men whether saved or yet lost have some faith. So there is no excuse for refusing to hear the gospel and so resisting the Holy Spirit. (1 Peter 1:1-2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; Acts 7:51).

 

I'm sorry, I don't see in Scripture where all men have the kind of faith that characterizes Christ's sheep.
In fact, I see where all men do not have that sort of faith:

" And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all [men] have not faith." ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 )

To me, all men do not have the kind of faith that believes on Christ, that endures to the end in trials and tribulations, and that confesses Christ before men, even in the face of death.

That kind of faith is a miracle.
Think "Stephen being stoned by the Jews who did not believe", Acts of the Apostles 7:54-60.

Men refuse to "hear" and believe the Gospel because it is foolishness to them:

" For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." ( 1 Corinthians 1:18 )

Here I see that the preaching of the cross is foolishness, to "them that perish".
To "us which are saved" it is the power of God.

Two groups...
"Them that perish", and "us which are saved".

Two reactions...
Rejection, and belief, depending upon which group one is part of.

 

What you fail to have understood is all men are given faith on account of natural revelation (Romans 10:17-18; Psalms 19:1-4). That is not the same thing as the faith (Jude 1:3) which we obtain through the written word of God (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

No one knows anything without believing it. What we call the study of science is the study of the natural word of God, the laws of physics etc. It is the special written word of God by which we know Christ and therefore know God.

 

Yes, I've heard that stated many times from many people.
Romans chapters 1-3 also states that man rejects natural revelation, suppressing the truth of it in their unrighteousness.

However, I suppose that when you can give me Scripture that specifically states that all men have faith that they can "exercise", then I'll believe it.
Thus far, I haven't seen any that does.

In addition, I don't work on implication...I work on declaration.
For now, I can't find God's word directly declaring that anyone has faith ( biblical faith ), except for Christ's sheep.

To "have faith" and to have THE faith are two entirely different things.
One comes out of man's reasoning...what we as men, think is "faith" is instead, mere fleshly confidence in things that may or may not be ultimately trustworthy.

For example:

Man's "faith" is like sitting in a chair and trusting it not to break when he sits in it.
But the problem is, that the chair very well could break, and the faith be misplaced.
Therefore, man's faith in something other than Jesus Christ is ultimately undependable and based on what seems to be, from our perspective.
The kind of miraculous faith which trusts Christ in everything is dependable, rock solid and never wavers in times of trouble.

Natural "faith" is faith outside of trusting God.
To me, one does not lead to the other, though many here on this board seem to believe just that...that one leads to the other.

I disagree with that line of reasoning, and I will always disagree.
To agree would be to assign salvation to the efforts of men, not to the divine efforts of God my Saviour.

His very word states that faith is a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ), authored and finished by His Son, Jesus Christ ( Hebrews 12:2 ), which I've stated before.
To assign it any other origin or meaning is to attribute it to imperfect men...which means it will fail when tested, just like all of man's devices fail when God tests them.

I agree, sir.

Again, I agree, at least tentatively.
Men observe their surroundings, and come to conclusions...some true, some not-so-true, like evolution.
The study of science is not entirely trustworthy...take it from a lifelong scientist.

The study and trust of God's very words, is.

A child of God knows their Saviour's words, and inherently trusts them ( John 8:47, John 10:27 ), because they are from the only trustworthy source...Him.




May God be pleased to bless you greatly, good sir.

 

I am persuaded that without the sanctifying work of Holy Spirit (John 16:8-11) the gospel will not be preached. And not everyone in the sound of the gospel will heed it (Acts 7:51). Only those whom God sanctifies will heed it (1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14; John 6:44-45; Romans 10:14)..

 

Of that I think we are in agreement.

Again, it seems we are in agreement.

Yet again, I see no reason to disagree with your statement.
I wish you well sir.

 

Didn't mean they couldn't have. This verse you're quoting from has Stephen rebuking the religious leaders as stiff-necked with their hearts and ears uncircumcised. I think you better read Deut 10:16 where it states,

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn." Deut 10: 16

That's something they had to do and that's something they could do! For ones to say they couldn't have is to have Stephen getting mad, grieved and frustrated at them for no reason.

1 Peter 1: 2 says elect according to the foreknowledge of God....you left that out.

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 yes chosen from the beginning. But the scripture has already told you it's by foreknowledge.

John 6:44-45 But they choose to hear from the Father first with the message of John the Baptist. Those who did were then drawn to the Son.

But the Pharisees and the experts in the Law rejected God's plan for themselves by refusing to be baptized by John. Luke 7:30

Romans 10:14 Well if you're going to use this as a Calvinist you've got to be consistent. It seems to me what you're trying to say looking at this at a glance is the believing comes before knowing anything about the message. That's not what he said.

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

You've got work through this slowly and not run through it quickly. At a glance you're seeing the believing before having heard. NO. It's really the preacher first. And the preacher tells you about Jesus as in now you have heard. And now you can call upon him. So it's hear, believe and call upon him, not believe and now you're ready to hear.

 

For those who may wonder where some of us get the definition of "foreknowledge" ( which is one of the pivotal words in any discussion of election ), it comes from Scripture itself ( Jeremiah 1:5 ), not from anything that may come from outside of God's word.
I remember reading the passage below some years ago now, and inherently knowing that foreknowledge was not just God knowing how someone would respond to the Gospel, but how one of God's children would.

How did I know this?
I'll develop it.


" And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.
29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." ( Romans 8:28-30 )

Breaking this down, I see the following:

28) All things work together for good to them that love God.
They are also THE called, according to purpose. That "purpose" being God's purpose according to election ( Romans 9:11 ).
Scripture defines and reinforces Scripture.

"Them that love God" in verse 28 has an origin...a cause.
Because all men inherently hate God in their corrupt, selfish and sinful natures ( Psalms 14:1-3, Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20 ) and those that are not saved inherently hate Jesus Christ ( John 15:16-21 ), then they will hate God's children as well.

But we as God's children love Him.
Why?

" We love him, because he first loved us." ( 1 John 4:19 )

Believers in Jesus Christ love Him, because He first loved us.
Scripture is clear...the world hates Jesus Christ.
But believers love Him, because He first loved them and gave Himself for them ( 1 John 4:10 )
The origin of "them that love God" is God's love for them...first.

Cause = God's love for the elect ( Ephesians 2:4-10 ).
Effect = God sending His Son to save His people ( John 10:11, Matthew 1:21, Isaiah 53:8 ).


Part two, following.

 

29) For whom ( individuals ) He did foreknow, He also did predestinate conformed to the image of His Son...so that Christ would be the firstborn among many spiritual brethren.

Words have origin.
It's called "etymology" or the study of the origin of words.
We as believers understand that the languages were created by Gods at the tower of Babel ( Genesis 11:1-9 ), which is where we get out term, "babble".


Here I see the word, "foreknow" being developed from the Greek, "proginosko" or "proegnw" ( transliterated into English ) and its meaning is "before-know" or "before-to-know".
In the Latin, I believe that it is related to the word, "progignere" ( beget, or "birth" ), which leads to "progenies", which ended up in Old French as "progenie" and in English as "progeny", or "offspring".


noun
noun: progeny; plural noun: progenies

1. a descendant or the descendants of a person, animal, or plant; offspring.
   "the progeny of mixed marriages"
   synonyms: offspring, young, babies, children, sons and daughters, family, brood; More
   descendants, heirs, scions;
   issue;
   archaicseed, fruit of one's loins
   "genetic traits passed on from parent to progeny"

Origin
Middle English: from Old French progenie, from Latin progenies, from progignere ‘beget’ (see progenitor).



Believers, begotten by God ( James 1:18 ), were foreknown of Him in the created sense.
He knew Jeremiah, and ordained ( set forth, commissioned ) him as a prophet ( Jeremiah 1:5 ).

In addition, to "know" in the Biblical sense is to love, or have intimate relation with someone ( Genesis 4:1 ).
God's intimate relation, spiritually, with His children began before the foundation of the world, when He placed them "in Christ" ( Ephesians 1:4-5 ).

He literally created them for Himself ( Romans 9:23 ) out of the tainted clay that man's sin had corrupted.
He didn't just know "about" them, or have knowledge of them in the foreseen sense, He begat them and they are His children in the spiritual sense.


Believers are God's progeny.
They are the product of His foreknowledge ( 1 Peter 1:2 ) and chosen ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 ).
They are drawn ( John 6:44 ) because they were given to Christ by His Father ( John 6:64-65, John 17:2 ) to receive the gift ( Romans 6:23 ) of eternal life which is to know God ( John 17:3 ) not simply to escape the fires of Hell.



Those that are saved, are saved TO a relationship with the Lord, not simply from everlasting punishment.
They are given the earnest ( downpayment ) of that inheritance ( 2 Corinthians 1:22, Ephesians 1:13-14 ) which indwells them and leads them ( Romans 8:9-14 ).


Part three, following.

 

The Foreknowledge of God is not merely him knowing who would be saved by seeing the future, but Him knowing they would be saved as He caused them to be in Covenant with him in the Future...

 

30) Finally, in addition to them being "foreknown" and predestinated, they are also called, justified and glorified.

It's all a "done deal" in God's eyes.
However, from man's perspective, it is still unfolding in real time.

To summarize:


God's foreknowledge is His "begetting" believers...knowing them and loving them before they were born, and then causing them to be born again in this life, spiritually.
Their belief is a work of His ( John 6:29 ) according to His will ( John 1:13 ), not theirs.

They were begotten, given to His Son, and Christ died for them on the cross.
Those who truly believe, do so, because it was given to them to do so ( Philippians 1:29 ), not because they had anything inherent in themselves, or even a "Prevenient Grace" that "enabled them" to believe.

it was given to them to know the mysteries of the kingdom of Heaven ( Matthew 13:11, Mark 4:11, Luke 8:10 ), but to those "without", it was not given.



The only way to truly believe, be indwelt by the Holy Ghost, and endure to the end in trials and tribulations, is to have real faith...the faith that accompanies the gift of eternal life.


There is no other way to be saved, than by and through Jesus Christ...
And God's word tells the believer more than just John 3:16 and about 17 other verses regarding the subject of their salvation...
It tells them the details behind how and why they believed on His Son.


It in no way allows men and women to take any credit for anything they did in escaping Hell.
Salvation is His work, start to finish, and nothing about it relies on "cooperation".


God's purpose according to election is His purpose, and it is according to His foreknowledge.
Those of us who see "foreknowledge" as purposeful, instead of informative, do so for specific reasons.
Some of which I've listed in my last 3 posts.





May God bless you all.

 

God knows who are His own, as he is the One that determined them to be in Covenant relationship with Him!

 

There is this condition of all men without God's intervention, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." -- Romans 3:11.