Why Believe One can Lose Salvation??

The problem with this Once Saved Always Saved theory is that time and time again in the Bible, it is pointed out that so many Christians who thought they were going to be saved, will be lost. And the reason is because they just plain didnt want to DO what Jesus SAYS.

Matthew Chapter 7 provides a good illustration of this. First of all we need to understand that Bible verses and chapters are man-made. You have to read the entire passage and imagine Jesus standing there telling the people an entire message... Read the whole of Matthew Chapter 7 to see what it is He is trying to get across.


The chapter begins by Jesus telling us the Law... that whatever we wish others to do unto us we should do unto them... that is a summary of the Law. "Love Thy Neighbor".

Then Jesus goes on to say that FEW will enter into heaven and find the strait gate, the narrow way.

Then Jesus goes on to talk about False Prophets, and that many will come to you wolves in sheep's clothing, but it is by their FRUITS that you will know them... not by their PROFESSION. The bad tree that bears no real fruit will be cut down, just as John the Baptist told the Pharisees who came to be baptised by him that they needed to "Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance. And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire" Mt:3:8-10

Jesus continues saying, not everyone will be saved "but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven".

Jesus then pulls back the curtain of what is going to happen in the future, Many will say on that day "Lord, Lord we have cast out devils, we have prophesied in thy name..." But Jesus will say unto them "Depart from Me, I never KNEW YOU... you that work INIQUITY (sin)"

Then Jesus said that everyone that HEARS HIS SAYINGS AND DOES THEM, will be like a house built upon a rock.

I wish that those who think because they "believe" that they have some sort of automatic pass into heaven would read the whole Bible and not just parts of it that have to do with believing.

Lk:6:46: And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Its like someone describing a police car, over and over saying "its white" "its white"... yes but its also black... and you have to look at the entire thing.

YES the Bible talks about faith and believing but it ALSO talks about alot of other things we must do.

I dont know how many other ways Jesus could try to get this point across to people. Unfortunately, many many will find this out too late.


Matthew 7:
12: Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13: Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15: Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16: Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17: Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18: A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19: Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20: Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24: Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock


Claudia

SHEEP AND GOATS

Take note, the sheep do not sit around saying "I believe" "I believe"...


Matthew 25:

31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jn:5:29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

How many other ways does Jesus have to say this?

I am now facing the possibility of being homeless.

And so this subject I can keenly feel. No matter what Church I have asked for help from, the local Baptist Church AND Seventh Day Adventist Church included, NONE is willing to lift a finger to help me.

They all say, "Go to a battered women's shelter"... "We are praying for you"


Well thats really helpful! Thanks for the prayers and well wishes! But what am I supposed to do after that?

Jms:2:16: And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

Jms:1:27: Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

"When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?"

Im a little disgusted right now with this entire "Profession of Faith" ...


Claudia

I do believe because the Bible tells us that Jesus 'did no sin, neither was there guile found in His mouth', that Jesus did not sin.

Now, because a lie would be sin, Jesus could not have been lying when He said,

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Now, since the word everlasting means 'unending' or 'perpetual', I know that I will never, ever lose my salvation. It is secure in Christ Jesus!

Read this passage carefully, it says IF we do certain things THEN our calling and election will be sure and we will be granted an entrance into heaven.

it also says those who do NOT do these things have proven that they have forgotten that they were purged from their old sins...

So to me it is definite proof we can be saved and then lost again.


2 Peter 1:10
1: Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:
2: Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3: According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5: And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6: And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7: And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8: For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9: But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10: Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

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This is awesome and all, but this passages does not address those who lose their faith.

So the question is to whome is this promised given?

Answer: Those those who believe (the truth by way of knowing and obeying Jesus as Lord) by following Jesus!


So, the next question is, 'What if later in Life I go back to living worldly and My bleif becomes just an intellectual understanding of Jesus and His principles?

This passage does not address that issue:

But even in this passage there is still something the individual MUST do (Beleive)

Share a scripture that address those who leave christ by following another Teaching or whaterver.

If you need to repair your breaks dont go the the Engine section. Doesn't make sense to do so

Claudia_T,

Amen. Well saying!

You present or given many good verses talking about conditional salvation so excellence. Good job!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

Claudia T,

First, I do not think you have come to the realization that Christians are saved because of their faith/trust in the Lord and not by always living perfectly before Him. We are not saved by the number of admonitions that we keep that the Lord has given us to guide our lives by in this lifetime. If this is true, we will never know if we measure up to His good pleasure.

False Prophet and sinners go to Hell; but Christians will enter Heaven as stated in Romans eight.

I am sorry to hear of your possible financial problems. I know when I pastored I--in many of my churches had to go out and work a part time job to pay the bills. Do you have the physical strength to do this?

I find that 99% of Christians have no money to support Christian missions in foreign lands, but they have 'wide screem T.V., new or newer cars, and a house that is paid for. Don't think that the Lord is not going to judge His people for their worldiness and selfishness.

I know having pastored church that their money is already spent with their own projects in Christian endeavor.

Maybe you can get SSI and the Social Security Office.

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
I find that 99% of Christians have no money to support Christian missions in foreign lands, but they have 'wide screem T.V., new or newer cars, and a house that is paid for. Don't think that the Lord is not going to judge His people for their worldiness and selfishness.

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I mean no offense or disrespect here, but in and if itself, I think that's a bit unrighteous of a judgement there (aside from the fact that most Christians I know don't own a home that's paid for). I myself do not support foreign missions. But I do indeed support financially other Godly missions and charities. It would be quite unfair for you to judge me because I live in a 400K home, or because of the material things I own, which, btw, I have worked incredibly hard for. Not to mention, that mentality (which I don't think you are partaking in, btw) breeds covetousness on the part of the one looking at the material possessions of others.

Johnv,

I am glad to do support missions through your local church.

I did like your 'spin' on the covetousness idea; it made me smile today. I needed that.

Are you saying that most of us Christians are doing enough--say on the continent of Africa by way of reaching people with the Gospel, feeding poor starving children and helping to meet our brethren's needs?

If we are not doing all that we can then I John 3:17 should convict us of our covetousness.

Blessings to you,
Ray

SHEEP AND GOATS

Take note, the sheep do not sit around saying "I believe" "I believe"...

Matthew 25:

31: When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37: Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44: Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45: Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46: And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

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And here is the ULTIMATE proof that much of this kind of language was directed at people in that generation; in their particular situations. When I first became a Christian, this bothered me a lot. Am I really supposed to bring in every homeless person I see in the street? Add to that passage "Give to every man that asks of you" (Luke 6:30). Especially considering that salvation even seemed to rest on this! (I was into Armstrongism back then, and really believed that, but was in a serious bind. And the leaders of that movement, as well as every other denomination, as rich as they were, certainly didn't seem to be doing this!)
Basically, then, this would mandate that every single saved person then should be running a homeless shelter out of their home! (and they must have one big enough to do that effectively, without disturbing neighbors, and such).

But it was only recently, that I learned that the key to such passages was Matt. 10:40: He that receives you receives Me. Then look at passages like Luke 10, where he is instructing the seventy to bring forth the Gospel in which they would stay at peoples houses. It is in that context we have "shake the dust off your feet...it will be more tolerable for Sodom than that city". Elsewhere, we see that the traveling apostles were often needy, and Christ told them not to take anything, because their needs would be met. (This continues into Paul's epistles, with passages like 2 Cor.9 which is now taken to mean to completely pamper some stationary "pastor"/ministry leader who always has a home to return to).

So all of this language is about receiving Christ! Of course, that would determine salvation! But back then, that would mean taking the apostles into your home. If you turned them away, it was because you rejected Christ. Now it has nothing to do with bringing people into your home, as most of us today hand out tracts, and it is groups like the JW's who will enter your home and sit down and teach you if you let them. (But they still don't stay over).

So many of these passages we have gotten completely wrong, even though they are quite simple in their original contexts. We see how many problems this can cause, and this is why we have neverending debates like this "eternal security" issue. We all need to sit down and take "a new look from the old book" (a little chorus we used to sing), instead of using the sloppy, but ever so familiar manner of ripping isolated verses (even chapters!) out as quick proof texts; as widespread as "the traditional 'orthodox' interpretation" may be.

[ March 08, 2006, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: Eric B ]

Read this passage carefully, it says IF we do certain things THEN our calling and election will be sure and we will be granted an entrance into heaven.

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11: For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

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"abundantly" was missed. When this happens context is turned upside down!

As for you uncaring church, I am sorry to hear this, I will pray for God to open doors for you. There is a CMA church in my town who takes care of those in need. I am very saddened that these two churches you speak of are so out of touch with Jesus Christ. Hopefully you will find a loving church one day, but rest assured you will need to leave Ellen White's false teachings at the door. Shake them off and trust only in the Word of God.

God Bless!