Is Mary Omini-present ?

Then nate, why do you continue to argue for both of these positions?

 

Mary was not infallible please show me where I have said she was.

So here I am supposed to trust your interpetation of Scripture rather than someone who was given his pastorial position by the apostle John?

 

nate,

Peter was given his apostolic position by Jesus Himself....yet we find even in the time before the Bible was complete that Peter had been overtaken by a heresy. Add to that the fact that God never promises to preserve the words of "early church fathers"....He only promises to preserve HIS Word. Any quote you give of Iraeneus is of necessity over 1900 years old.

Besides all these points....you didn't provide a quote of Iraneus' that pertained to the Scripture Eliyahu was pointing out.

 

Why does it hurt believe these things? I'm not worshiping Mary nor do I believe she can do anything for me. I could take offense that you believe that communion is simply symbolic while I would have Scripture on my side but I do not. And that is more serious than if Mary is the Mother (spiritualy) of the Church.

 

you are again skipping to another issue. Stick to this one.

Let me add another thought I just had when reading back on the last page again....

We keep talking about this idea that Mary is the Mother of the church, and you keep giving us quotes about Mary being Jesus' mother. Why are the two the same to you? They are not the same to me...they are vastly different. A woman is the mother of the child she bears, that is very different than her being the "spiritual" mother to any religious movement that child may start.

Mary's job ended when Jesus was grown up. It is offensive to us to call her the spiritual mother of the church, because that implies that she has some sort of spiritual authority over the church, or that she holds some kind of spiritual role still within our church. She does not.

Your comments about communion are also catholic, not baptistic. YOu have the right to hold to them of course, but you need to realize that it is a catholic point of view and not a baptistic one.

The reason I even continue in this vein with you is because I see you being sucked in by the things you are reading. Ive seen it other places, and because you are young you do not even realize that you are giving your mind over gradually to these things. I am not despising your youth.....don't get me wrong. But as an older believer I can tell you that you are allowing things to come into your mind and you are not putting up the necessary mental barriers to filter those things you are reading through the Bible.

By claiming that Mary is the spiritual mother of the church you are giving her added authority and honor which is not due her. This is part of the path you are on.

 

No the quotes were to show that many believe Mary to be the Mother of God not just the RCC.

No they are actually Reformed. (See Westminster Confession of faith or the 39 Articles)

I thank you for your sincere concern. But I'm not listening to others anymore than IFBC people listen and follow after whatever their Pastor preaches.

What authority am I giving her? The title I'm presuming she has gives her no power or authority it is for all intents and purposes more show than practice.

 

In fact I would say I give her no power at all. In my opening posts I said she intercedes on behalf of the church but her prayers merit no more than mine and yours. It's more of a title of honor than one of any effect.

 

than what is the purpose for the "show"?

There was a whole thread on the term "mother of God" versus "mother of Jesus" awhile back on one of the Baptist sections..... It was pointed out then that originally to say "mother of God" is not the same as it means in today's modern mind. Yes, of course we believe in the virgin birth of Christ. Yes of course we believe Mary gave birth to and raised Jesus as her son. All of this is a side issue though....it has no bearing on whether or not she had some sort of spiritual role over the CHURCH itself.

Whether you mean to or not, when you say "Mary is the spiritual mother of the church" in most people's minds you are claiming something more for her than just some sort of "show".

And why would there need to be such a show anyway? Why must she be a part of today's church at all? She is in heaven, her earthly part is over.

btw, Im not telling you what my pastor has taught me. Im speaking out of my own study of the Bible.

And to claim that she in some way intercedes for the church also is a problem Biblically.

 

To give her the honor she is due. Luke 1:28 "And he came to her and said, "Hail, O favored one, the Lord is with you!" RSV

Luke 1:45 "And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." RSV This is also where the term Blessed Virgin Mary is seen as Scriptural. And this verse as well~"For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;" Luke 1:48b. Here is a great example of Mary's heart and seems to argue against the suggestion and personal interpetation that Eliyahu brought up earlier about Mary not believing in Jesus. "And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, 47. and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior," Luke 1:46b-47 RSV

 

The bible authors NEVER call Mary "the Mother of God" not in the Gospels and not ONCE in the Epistles.

The Bible NEVER shows ANYONE praying to Mary!

The Bible NEVER records ANYthing like the resurrection and assumption of Mary!

The Bible NEVER states that Mary was born sinless OR That her mother had some kind of magic thing going on with the immaculate conception!

ALL of the above are the imaginings and manufacture of sinful men who do not adhere to doctrines based "Sola Scriptura"!

There is no other way for error of that magnitude to creep into the church - than to abandon the Bible as the RULE and test of all dcotrine!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Luke 1:34 "And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" RSV
If you prefer Lord then that's fine. Remember this wasn't Elizabeth speaking on her own here it was the Holy Spirit that filled her.

Luke 1:41b "and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit"

 

How true you are. This is a false doctrine.

Again you are correct. This false heresy was not even created until 1845 when the RCC announced it.

But the ecumenical council of 325 A.D. and the three creeds are backed up Scripture and denounced heresy. To claim that they will be a rule of practice for your church means nothing. Not one of them ever went against Scripture:
Council of Nicaea 325 A.D.
and the creeds:
Nicene Creed,
Apostles' Creed,
Athanasian Creed

 

nate,

Eliyahu never said that Mary did not believe in Jesus. Eliyahu DID give you verses where Mary's ideas were opposed to Jesus' ideas. He gave you these verses in response to your attempts to say that Mary had original sin but did not commit acts of sin during her life. Those verses showed you instances where Mary thought she should be afforded some sort of special attention from Jesus because she was His mother.......but Jesus refused to give her such attention. Im sure she realized she was wrong, but the point is that she was wrong. However, you have ignored these verses completely. Why will you not comment on that?

Your idea that the Bible tells us she was due some sort of special honor simply because she was declared to have been blessed, is wrong. Many people were called blessed in the Bible. Many people were commended for believing in Christ, and for believing what God said He would do. THese are good things, but they do not afford that person some special honor in today's church.

 

Mary sinned in her life I have no problem admitting that. But to claim if anyone calls her holy is wrong, when the Bible tells us we can be holy, is not heresy. Did she sin yes. Was she inerrant no.

 

nate,

than by that same token, which modern men or women of today do you call holy? (just in general....not necessarily specific names)

You seem to be backing down on some of your points.....and Im glad frankly. We need to look at our terminologies and decide if they are really Biblical and if they in fact lead people to the wrong assumptions. Many of the things which Mary are called lead people to believe wrong things about her.

 

I would say one becomes holy when their new nature which Christ gives us at salvation becomes the dominant nature. Obviously we can never gain sinlessness on earth but I think one can get close.

 

oh my

 

Mary was a sinner in need of a Savior.