1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Was Jesus really worshipped?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Boanerges, Feb 7, 2006.

Top Posters
  1. Boanerges

    Boanerges New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    0
    The Jehovah's witnesses say no, that HE did not receive the same worship as God the Father did. What does the forum think?
     
    #1 Boanerges, Feb 7, 2006
  2. Linda64

    Linda64 New Member

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2004
    Messages:
    2,051
    Likes Received:
    0
    They Worshipped Jesus

    The Bible teaches that it is idolatry and wickedness to worship any one or any thing other than the one True and Living God (Mt 4:10; Ex 34:14; Isa 42:8) . Therefore, the fact that Jesus Christ accepted worship is indisputable evidence that he is Almighty God. The elect angels refuse to accept worship (Re 19:10). The Apostles also refused worship (Ac 14:11-15). The Lord Jesus Christ, though, was repeatedly worshipped by those who approached Him, and not once does the Bible record that He corrected those who worshipped Him or that He refused worship (Mt 2:11; 8:2; 9:18; 14:33; 15:25; 20:20; 28:9,17; Php 2:9-11; Heb 1:6-8).

    Way of Life Encyclopedia of the Bible
     
    #2 Linda64, Feb 7, 2006
  3. Watchman

    Watchman New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2003
    Messages:
    2,706
    Likes Received:
    0
    Individuals in the gospel accounts, at various times, worshipped the Lord Jesus (the man born blind in John chapter 9 being one occasion).
    Also, Jesus said that the Son is to be regarded as the Father, and if you do not regard the Son, you don't regard the Father. "I and My Father are one." There are plenty of passages that demonstrate the divinity of the Lord Jesus.
    The J.W.'s conform and mold the Word of God to fit their doctrine, instead of conforming and molding their doctrine to the Word of God.
    What they teach is from "...seducing spirits and things taught by demons." They are to be ignored.
    Thank you Linda64-excellent!
     
    #3 Watchman, Feb 7, 2006
  4. Boanerges

    Boanerges New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Let's take a look at the Ten Commandments as they appear in the LXX (Greek copy of the Hebrew OT) in comparison to the KJV translation:

    Exodus 20

    5 (KJV) Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

    5 (LXX) ou proskunhseiv autoiv oude mh latreushv autoiv egw gar eimi kuriov o yeov sou yeov zhlwthv apodidouv amartiav paterwn epi tekna ewv trithv kai tetarthv geneav toiv misousin me

    And this verse:

    2 Samuel 15
    32 And it came to pass, that [when] David was come to the top [of the mount], where he worshipped God, behold, Hushai the Archite came to meet him with his coat rent, and earth upon his head:

    32 (LXX) kai hn dauid ercomenov ewv tou rowv ou prosekunhsen ekei tw yew kai idou eiv apanthn autw cousi o arci etairov dauid dierrhcwv ton citwna autou kai gh epi thv kefalhv autou


    Now let's take a look at some verses where Jesus received worship in the New Testament with the Greek for comparison:

    Mat 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense, and myrrh.

    Mat 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

    Mat 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

    Mat 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and [b/worshipped[/b] him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

    Mat 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

    Mar 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

    All the above bolded words have the same root found above in the Greek OT passages, which is proskuneo.

    Now let's look a little closer at how this word is used in the New Testament in reference to the worshipping of God Almighty:

    Jhn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

    Jhn 4:21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

    Jhn 4:23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

    Jhn 4:24God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.

    Here is Jesus final statement to the woman at the well:

    Jhn 4:25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.

    Jhn 4:26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am [he]. (ego eimi)

    This is the literal from the Greek:

    26 Jesus I AM the speaking to you.

    Let's close by taking a look at Exodus 3:14 From the Greek copy of the Hebrew OT:

    14 (KJV) And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

    14 (LXX) kai eipen o yeov prov mwushn egw eimi o wn kai eipen outwv ereiv toiv uioiv israhl o wn apestalken me prov umav

    Please notice that in Exodus 3:14 appears the same ego eimi that appears in John 4:26.

    Here is the final warning to all of those who would think to deny the Deity of Christ:

    John 8
    23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
    24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins.

    Literal:

    if for not you believe that I AM you will die in the sins of you

    [ February 07, 2006, 10:23 AM: Message edited by: Boanerges ]
     
    #4 Boanerges, Feb 7, 2006
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Hey! Linda posted something I agree with!!

    Note to self: Write that down.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #5 BobRyan, Feb 7, 2006
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
     
    #6 BobRyan, Feb 7, 2006
  7. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    In the OT, no. (The Son was not yet known of). But in the NT, it's clear that he was. Even the wise men are clearly said to have bowed down and worshipped the christ child. Ya can't argue with scripture when it speaks with such clarity.

    Jesus, being part of the Godhead, is worthy of worship just as any of the Godhead.
     
    #7 Johnv, Feb 7, 2006
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The SON actually WAS mentioned in the OT and according to John 1 NO ONE has seen the FATHER at ANY TIME. Yet in the OT YHWH is seen a number of times.

    Christ IS the VISIBLE manefestation of God that is SEEN. So when YHWH is SEEN in the OT - it is in fact God the Son - and HE is worshipped!
     
    #8 BobRyan, Feb 7, 2006
  9. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    BobRyan, just for clarity, I said the Son was not known of. I wasn't addressing where the Son is mentioned.
     
    #9 Johnv, Feb 7, 2006
  10. Hope of Glory

    Hope of Glory New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2005
    Messages:
    4,807
    Likes Received:
    0
    BobRyan, I've often pointed out that the OT references the second person of the trinity, but people just look at me blankly. I'm glad I'm not the only one.
     
    #10 Hope of Glory, Feb 7, 2006
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I am with you all the way on that one!
     
    #11 BobRyan, Feb 7, 2006
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I agree that in the OT the focus is on "Hear o Israel the LORD (YHWH) your God is ONE". But in all cases where God is "seen" (whether it is the top of Sinai, or the Angel of the Lord wrestling with Jacob or meeting Joshua) it is not God the Father -- it is God the Son.

    He is the one that always functions as "the Word" that communicates God visibly, verbally etc.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #12 BobRyan, Feb 7, 2006
  13. Eric B

    Eric B Active Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    May 26, 2001
    Messages:
    4,838
    Likes Received:
    5
    That is basically what Armstrongism and Mormonism teaches, but you can't dichotomize God between YHWH and the Father like that.

    The teaching of God as one "family" or "team" made for a nice way to explain "plurality in unity", but a big problem with that view is Isaiah 44-46. Yahweh's numerous statements throughout these scriptures that there is no one else like Him, just does not seem to allow for the existence of another, let alone, higher 'God being' (the "Father"). Psalms 110:1, where Yahweh is clearly distinguished from an Adonai, who sits at his right hand, and from Matt.22:44 and other scriptures, is obviously shown to be Christ, also disproves that view, showing that the Father also, must be Yahweh. Also, Gen.3 shows that it was Yahweh man was cut off from, so such a distinction between Him and the Father cannot exist.

    Of course, the visible manifestations men saw in the OT WERE "the Word" (preexistent Christ), but this was not a separate essence from the Father. The universe is said to not be able to contain YHWH-Elohim (1 Kings 8:27), so all we could ever see are manifestations.
     
    #13 Eric B, Feb 7, 2006
  14. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    BobRyan, there's room for debate there. I don't think Jesus can ever be an angels of the Lord. As for Sinai, God was never seen. He appeared in the form of. Big difference. Anyhoo, I didn't mean to hijack the thread in that direction. I was just referring to the the folks in the OT not having the ability to comprehend Jesus as we understand him.

    [ February 07, 2006, 08:40 PM: Message edited by: Johnv ]
     
    #14 Johnv, Feb 7, 2006
  15. Boanerges

    Boanerges New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey...this thread is getting interesting.
     
    #15 Boanerges, Feb 7, 2006
  16. Boanerges

    Boanerges New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    0
    So now, since Jesus clearly received the same worship as God Almighty, and angels are not allowed to receive that worship, then Michael can not be Jesus by deductive reasoning. Another myth cleared up.
     
    #16 Boanerges, Feb 8, 2006
  17. Johnv

    Johnv New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2001
    Messages:
    21,321
    Likes Received:
    0
    Pick yourself up off the floor twice, because you're absolutely right. Jesus cannot be Michael, or any other angel in the OT.
     
    #17 Johnv, Feb 8, 2006
  18. Boanerges

    Boanerges New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2005
    Messages:
    591
    Likes Received:
    0
    Wow...he likes me....he really, really likes me....(maybe I shouldn't go that far) [​IMG]
     
    #18 Boanerges, Feb 8, 2006
  19. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Not "an angel" -- "The Angel of the LORD"

    The capital LORD is in fact YHWH.

    As for Man not being God - Genesis 17 makes it clear that YHWH appears as a man to Abraham. That does not mean that God is "really a man" or that "man can be worshipped".

    same point - made repeatedly on this topic.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
    #19 BobRyan, Feb 9, 2006
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    The Angel of the Lord appears and says “He is God”

    Not because "God is an angel" but because God CAN appear in that form if He so chooses.
     
    #20 BobRyan, Feb 9, 2006
(You must log in or sign up to post here.)
Loading...