John I Morris
Member
Scripture please, not just opinion. This is kind of a fun topic, just want to see what you guys think.
Thanks for the feedback.
Thanks for the feedback.
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Is the Church and the Body of Christ the same thing?
- Thread starter John I Morris
- Start date
Is the Church and the Body of Christ the same thing?
Yes.
Eph. 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
Col. 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
Yes.
Eph. 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
Col. 1:24 Now I rejoice in what I am suffering for you, and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ’s afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church.
That old grammar rule--'i' before 'e' except after 'c' has been disproven by science.
Not when it is pronounced as e.
Not when it is pronounced as e.
Spot on!! Thanks
Yes, but don't confuse the congregational body of Christ with spiritual union as they are not one and the same. Spiritual union is the fundamental essence of salvation from Genesis to Revelation but the congregational body of Christ had no pre-first coming existence.
The essence of the fall in Genesis is spiritual separation from God. Since God IS life, IS love, IS holy, IS light, and spiritual separation is separation from the life, love, holiness and light of God or in negative terms it is the fallen condition of darkness, death, enmity and depravity as a spiritual condition. Spiritual union with God is essential for any fallen human existing in a state of spiritual death to be saved, in fact, it is salvation as salvation cannot possibly exist apart from spiritual union with God, just as spiritual life, light, love, and holiness cannot exist between any fallen man and God apart from spiritual union with God.
However, the congregational body of Christ has nothing to do with spiritual union, but rather metaphorical union, as "the body" of Christ is a metaphor which those symbolically "in Christ" through baptism are metaphorical "members" who represent Christ in their community in doctrine and practice.
Dave G
Well-Known Member
"Is the Church and the body of Christ the same thing?"
" For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 so we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." ( Romans 12:4-5 )
" Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" ( 1 Corinthians 1:1-2 )
" Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." ( 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 )
" Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." ( Ephesians 5:25-30 ).
This last one is, in my opinion, the best analogy between Christ and His body, the "church" ( a spiritual institution, not a physical one )....husbands and wives and their bodies.
Physical marriage is a picture of spiritual marriage.
For more, please see Romans 7:1-4.
" For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 so we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." ( Romans 12:4-5 )
" Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" ( 1 Corinthians 1:1-2 )
" Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." ( 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 )
" Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." ( Ephesians 5:25-30 ).
This last one is, in my opinion, the best analogy between Christ and His body, the "church" ( a spiritual institution, not a physical one )....husbands and wives and their bodies.
Physical marriage is a picture of spiritual marriage.
For more, please see Romans 7:1-4.
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" Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." ( Ephesians 5:25-30 ).
This last one is, in my opinion, the best analogy between Christ and His body, the "church" ( a spiritual institution, not a physical one )....husbands and wives and their bodies.
Physical marriage is a picture of spiritual marriage.
For more, please see Romans 7:1-4.
Only one text of these two teaches what you are saying. First, Ephesians is speaking of the corporate institutional congregational body relationship with Christ whereas Romans is speaking of the individual relationship with Christ. Second, Ephesians is speaking of a yet future presentation or glorification as the end process of progressive sanctification of the corporate institutional body whereas Romans is speaking of an already completed presentation to Christ consummated already in spiritual union between Christ and the individual that is already producing metaphorical children (fruit). Third, Ephesians is speaking of the position of submission of the congregation of Christ to the headship of Christ (vv. 20-24) in the relationship to progressive sanctification consummated in glorification (vv. 25-27), whereas, Romans is speaking of the spiritual union of the individual in the sense of an already completed action that freed them from their relationship with the law as an ex-spouse dissolved by death. Fourth, Ephesians is speaking of metaphorical membership in His metaphorical body - the institutional congregational body whereas, Romans is speaking about literal spiritual union of the individual evidenced by metaphorical children of that union ("fruit"). Fifth, in overall context, Ephesians is speaking about congregational unity in service by submission to Christ which encapsulates the whole passage (Eph. 5:20,30) whereas Romans is speaking about the believers relationship with the Law versus with Christ with regard to initial salvation.
What many overlook is that the "temple" and "body" metaphors are used for the institutional congregational body (1 Cor. 3:5-16) or the local congregation such as the one at Corinth (1 Cor. 12:27) as well as the individual believer's body (1 Cor. 6:15-20). The Spirit of God indwells the corporate local congregational "body" "temple" as well as the individual "body" "temple." Confusing the two confuse service (congregation) with salvation (individual).
"Is the Church and the body of Christ the same thing?"
" For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 so we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." ( Romans 12:4-5 )
" Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" ( 1 Corinthians 1:1-2 )
" Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." ( 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 )
" Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." ( Ephesians 5:25-30 ).
This last one is, in my opinion, the best analogy between Christ and His body, the "church" ( a spiritual institution, not a physical one )....husbands and wives and their bodies.
Physical marriage is a picture of spiritual marriage.
For more, please see Romans 7:1-4.
Again, the church had no existence prior to the first coming of Christ whereas spiritual union is the fundamental essence of true salvation without which salvation has no existence. The problem with the fall in Genesis 2:17 is "death" (Rom. 5:12) which consists first and foremost as SPIRITUAL SEPARATION FROM GOD. God IS life, IS light, IS love and IS holy and spiritual separation from God is separation from life (dead) from light (darkness) from love (enmity) and from holiness (depravity) and these four characterize the spiritual state of the lost man (Eph. 4:18-19; Rom. 3:9-21; 8:7; etc.). Without spiritual union restored there can be no salvation, no sanctification, no fellowship, no justification, no kind of personal relationship between fallen man and God in any good sense whatsoever.
You are confusing metaphorical union, indwelling with the congregational metaphorical "body" of Christ with the individual union, indwelling whereas the former deals with progressive service while the later deals with initial salvation.
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid."Is the Church and the body of Christ the same thing?"
" For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 so we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." ( Romans 12:4-5 )
" Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" ( 1 Corinthians 1:1-2 )
" Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." ( 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 )
" Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." ( Ephesians 5:25-30 ).
This last one is, in my opinion, the best analogy between Christ and His body, the "church" ( a spiritual institution, not a physical one )....husbands and wives and their bodies.
Physical marriage is a picture of spiritual marriage.
For more, please see Romans 7:1-4.
16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s.
Notice, that he is speaking about YOUR PHYSICAL BODY (vv. 15,18, 19, 20). It is their PHYSICAL BODIES that are said to be "members of Christ" in verse 15. How is their PHYSICAL bodies "members of Christ"? Because he is referring to the visible local congregational body located geographically at Corinth which is a metaphorical body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27). Whenever it assembles in a given place (1 Cor. 11:17,20,33 "together in ONE PLACE") their PHYSICAL bodies assemble together in that one place as a metaphorical "body of Christ."
Now, notice concerning these PHYSICAL bodies the langauge in verses 16-18 above "what? know e not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication.....his own body." Notice he is speaking about the relationship of their PHYSICAL bodies to a harlot and a literal physical union thus making them "one flesh" the very same language you quoted of the church in Ephesians 5:29-30. He is saying this PHYSICAL union violates both their spiritual union with Christ who indwells their physical body (v. 19) and it violates the METAPHORICAL UNION that their PHYSICAL BODIES have with the METAPHORICAL congregational body of Christ which the Spirit of God indwells corporately (1 Cor. 12:27).
The literal spiritual union versus the metaphorical union must be distinguished or you end up with making the church salvational and thus the Roman Catholic Church salvation position which confused these two which the Reformed Roman Catholic Churches (Protestantism) continued to confuse with their universal invisible church theory.
This is what you have done in your post. There is no salvation outside this view of the church because you demand that INDIVDIUAL spiritual union and CHURCH spiritual union are one and the same when they are not. The former has to do with the essence of spiritual relationship with God whereas the latter has to do with service to God.
15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. 17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. 18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body. 19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God’s."Is the Church and the body of Christ the same thing?"
" For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:
5 so we, [being] many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another." ( Romans 12:4-5 )
" Paul, called [to be] an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes [our] brother,
2 unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" ( 1 Corinthians 1:1-2 )
" Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." ( 1 Corinthians 12:27-28 )
" Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 that he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 for we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones." ( Ephesians 5:25-30 ).
This last one is, in my opinion, the best analogy between Christ and His body, the "church" ( a spiritual institution, not a physical one )....husbands and wives and their bodies.
Physical marriage is a picture of spiritual marriage.
For more, please see Romans 7:1-4.
Notice, that he is speaking about YOUR PHYSICAL BODY (vv. 15,18, 19, 20). It is their PHYSICAL BODIES that are said to be "members of Christ" in verse 15. How is their PHYSICAL bodies "members of Christ"? Because he is referring to the visible local congregational body located geographically at Corinth which is a metaphorical body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27). Whenever it assembles in a given place (1 Cor. 11:17,20,33 "together in ONE PLACE") their PHYSICAL bodies assemble together in that one place as a metaphorical "body of Christ."
Now, notice concerning these PHYSICAL bodies the language in verses 16-18 above "what? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Flee fornication.....his own body." Notice he is speaking about the relationship of their PHYSICAL bodies to a harlot and a literal physical union thus making them "one flesh" the very same language quoted by Paul of the church in Ephesians 5:29-30. He is saying this PHYSICAL union violates both their spiritual union with Christ who indwells their physical body (v. 19) and it violates the METAPHORICAL UNION that their PHYSICAL BODIES have with the METAPHORICAL congregational body of Christ which the Spirit of God indwells corporately (1 Cor. 12:27).
Notice, the literal physical body of the believer is related to two different kinds of union with Christ. First, your physical body is a partaker of a METAPHORICAL union with the METAPHORICAL body of Christ - the church composed of physical bodies that are gathered together “in one place.” Second, your physical body is a metaphorical temple wherein a spiritual union exists between your “spirit” and the Spirit of God.
Physical fornication with a harlot violates both unions. It violates the PHYSICAL union with the PHYSICAL body of Christ that meets together in ONE PLACE because that body is to be set apart unto holiness in serving Christ (Rom. 12:1).
Physical fornicaton with a harlot violates the SPIRITUAL union within that physical body because it is the metaphorical “temple” of God.
Hence, there are two completely different types of Temples/bodies of God in view. There is the LITERAL physical body that itself is the singular metaphorical “temple” of the Spirit of God as it houses the Spirit of God in spiritual union with your spirit inside that temple/body which is in reference to individual salvation relationship to God. Howerver, this same LITERAL physical body is one of many other LITERAL physical bodies (plural) together form as metaphorical “members” the singular metaphorical congregational Temple/Body that meets together in “one place” for SERVICE.
The fact that your PHYSICAL body is a member of Christ or the metaphorical body of Christ proves the kind of membership is a PHYSICAL membership or PHYSICAL assemblying of PHYSICAL bodies and thus a PHYSICAL METAPHORICAL body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:27). Hence, this is absolute undeniable proof that the church of Christ is a PHYSICAL assembly composed of PHYSICAL bodies that has nothing to do with individual personal spiritual union with God, except the physical body serves both purposes. The physical body houses the spiritual union between the individual’s spirit and the Spirit of God, and the physical body is a metaphorical “member” of the metaphorical body of Christ that physically gathers together “in one place.”
Hence, the physical body of the believer is a singular temple by itself with regard to spiritual union = salvation. In that sense, it is constituted a metaphorical temple of God at the point of spiritual union = salvation. Hence, it becomes a metaphorical “temple” by virture of LITERAL spiritual union.
However, the same physical body is brought into union with other physical bodies composing together one singular metaphorical “temple” or “body” of Christ based upon profession that their individual bodies have already been made temples of the Spirit of God due to spiritual union and that profession is made public in the act of baptism that gives public identfication with the gospel of Christ. Hence, the constitution of the metaphorical body of Christ is due to baptismal profession of already being an individual temple of the Spirit. Thus, the physical body becomes a metaphorical temple by itself due to spiritual union. However, the physical body becomes a metaphorical “member” with many other metaphorical “members” together corporately as one metaphorical temple/body of Christ upon baptismal profession of faith. With regard to spiritual union the physical body is a stand alone metaphorial “temple” of God. However, with regard to baptismal union with the corporate “body/temple” of God the individual physical body is just one of many other metaphorical “members” that compose that singular temple/body and as a singular physical body is not that metaphorical temple and cannot be that metaphorical temple as that singular temple is by definition composed of plural physical bodies at least “two or three” or else no assembly exists. Hence, the individual physical body cannot constitute the church temple/body.
Initial salvational relationship with God occurs on the individual level not on the corporate membership level. Membership on the corporate level is constituted by baptismal profession as the beginning point of public SERVICE.
However, if these two different uses of the physical body are confused with each other so that the individual temple of God (spiritual union) is confused with the corporate temple of God (baptismal union) then some form of some kind of baptismal church salvation is the consequence. Church salvation is the necessary product of the universal visible, and universal invisible church theories. You cannot be saved and be outside these kind of churches according to these theories. Roman Catholics and all who hold to a visible church salvation believe salvationu and church membership are inseparably connected. Protestants who believe in an invisible church believe that salvation and membership in this kind of church are inseparable. Visible salvation church advocates beleive that water baptism is inseparable form salvation. Invisible salvation church advocates believe that spirit baptism and salvation are inseparable.
We distinguish between the two different uses of the Physical body of the believer and thus distinguish between spiritual union and baptismal union or between the individual physical body being the temple/body of that spiritual union and the physical body being but one of many other physical bodies that are necessary to compose a singular metaphorical temple/body.
John I Morris
Member
Thanks for the answers guys!! I appreciate the time you invested in this!