Preterists Cannot Prove Their Assertions !

Hi @robycop3 . I've just discovered this post, otherwise I would have replied earlier. It's always an interesting topic. I suspect you are as passionate about Preterism as I am, and maybe even more so. A new understanding of the Olivet Discourse is largely why I changed to the Partial Preterist view. In Matthew 24:34, Jesus said "this generation will not pass until ALL these things come to pass". Couple of points - He said "this generation", not "that generation" or "the generation alive when these things start happening". The generation that saw the destruction of Jerusalem saw ALL of what He had described in the preceding 33 verses.

We certainly agree that the prophecy in Matt. 24:2 literally came to pass. In the next verse, the disciples asked Jesus "When will these things happen? What will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the Age?" Note that "end of the Age" is the proper translation instead of the old "end of the world" we see in the KJV. The end of what age? He is talking about the end of the Old Covenant age. I know, you will object that Jesus instituted the New Covenant at the Last Supper. However, the Old Covenant didn't go away until the destruction of the Temple in AD 70.

Regarding Matt. 24:6-7, you mentioned that we've had wars since the time He spoke these words. True enough. In order for this to be a "sign", there had to be something significant going on. I suggest Jesus was referring to the "War of Four Emperors" (AD 66-70), which was (ironically) during the Pax Romana. This would be more of a sign since it happened during a time of "peace".

Verses 9-13 could easily describe the persecution during the Jewish Wars. Those who endured to the end were saved because Jesus warns them to flee Jerusalem in v. 16. As you know, the Christians fled to Pella to escape the persecution. On that note, it would not be possible to escape a worldwide tribulation in the way Jesus tells His followers. Also, in v. 20, Jesus is making a reference to the Sabbath Laws of His day. This would make no difference to modern Christians.

Has the Gospel been preached to all the world, as Jesus said in v. 14? While I am certainly no Greek scholar, I do know that the word for "world" used in this verse is "oikumene", meaning the known world, or the political realm. In this context, it points to the Roman Empire. The same word is used in Luke 2:1, where Augustus called for a census of the "oikumene". The following passages support the view that the Gospel was, in fact, preached in the whole "oikumene": Romans 1:8 (faith proclaimed throughout the whole world); Romans 16:26 (Gospel has been made known to all the nations); Colossians 1:3-6 (Gospel has come in all the world); Colossians 1:21-23 (proclaimed in all Creation); and 1 Timothy 3:16 (proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world).

In vs. 15-22, Jesus refers to the Abomination of Desolation from Daniel 9:26-27. I believe the sanctuary whose end will come with a flood refers to the temple which would be rebuilt by the returning exiles (Ezra 6:13-15). The AofD is also in Daniel 11:3. This may refer to Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who sacrificed a pig on the altar. You stated that this is where the evil ruler enters the temple and proclaims himself to be the only god. I don't see that in Daniel 11. The king in vs. 36-45 could be Herod the Great.

Luke 21:20 gives a specific sign that Jerusalem will be surrounded by armies, and we agree this refers to the siege of AD 66-70. The Christians had to flee while they could. You mentioned that this wasn't a "hasty" flight from Jerusalem. Did Jesus say it would be a "hasty" flight? He told them to flee - to get out while they can.

After reading Luke 21 very closely (per your request), I am more convinced than ever that this was the "great tribulation" (aka "days of vengeance") that Jesus warned them about. The "cosmic destruction" language Jesus used was a common type of hyperbole. In Matthew 24:30, He quotes Daniel 7:13. Note that in Daniel, the Son of Man is going UP to the Ancient of Days - not DOWN to set up His kingdom. We see this "cloud language" used in Acts 2:17-21, which quotes Joel 2. The sun didn't literally turn dark, and the moon didn't literally become blood. In Isaiah 13:10, we see that "the stars will not flash their light". This type of language was common for the prophets - not meant to be taken in a literal sense any more than we look for falling animals if it's raining cats and dogs.

That was a lot to cover, and I my lunch break is over. I may be able to check back in later this afternoon, but no guarantees. I'll be out for a few days, so it will be Tuesday when I can really spend more time with this topic. To paraphrase yourself, the Futurist View is as false as a Chevy Mustang. Take care, Brother.

 

Your assumption is your personal understanding of "generation". Tell me what generation was it that murdered Zechariah in 23:35?

 

I know that I'm not telling you anything you don't know, but I am just going over the scene here. Jesus was speaking of Adam (the first murder victim) to Zechariah, who is presumably the last martyr in the Hebrew canon. Jesus was exposing how corrupt the Pharisees were in this passage. Jesus made the context clear starting in verse 29 when He reveals their hypocrisy. The blood of the martyrs was on the heads of all the Pharisees. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus specifically said "this generation", and we should take this in the normal, everyday sense.

Besides the term "this generation", Jesus was telling His immediate audience of things that they would see, warning them of what they should do. The use of "use" was for them, not for an audience far off in their future.

 

Normal everyday sense to whom? You and me?

Notice it was "this generation" that was being accused of murdering those prophets of the past.

Since it was true that none of those alive at the time could have done so then "this generation" has to refer to something else. The term generation gets used in a number of contexts quite regularly. Simply put in their day "generation" (genea) was often used as "nation".

 

The Second Coming event will trigger the resurrection of the dead and living in Christ, Israel reborn as a nation in one day, Jesus setting up His kingdom rule, the Messianic Age is ushered in, NONE of that happened AD 70!

 

The normal everyday use as His original audience would have understood it - "soon" means "soon", "you will see" means "you will see", etc. It doesn't make sense for Him to have meant "nation" in this context. Occam's Razor would apply the simplest meaning unless it was obviously allegorical.

 

Can also mean that when the Second Coming event is ready to happen, that itself will be soon!

 

This was a "coming" in judgment on Jerusalem, not the Second Advent. Israel wasn't reborn as a nation in one day, though. This was a decades-long process that finally came to pass after WWII, thanks in large part to the Zionist Movement. Having said that, I fully support the modern state of Israel. I've read of His incredible hand of protection on the Israelis during the 6-Day War. They are our strongest ally in the Middle East. But I digress. My point here is that we should take the terms "this generation", "you will see", and similar phrases at their face value - to mean exactly what He said.

 

Every generation from the 1st Century has been sure they were the generation that will see the Second Advent. Not to be a "Last Days Scoffer", but today is really no different.

 

Yes in fact it does make sense. Especially given the context that those specific people could not have killed the prophets of the past even though the generation is being accused of it. You have to ignore that to interpret it your way.

 

To be completely honest, I don't see a conflict. From previous posts, I know you are a pretty smart guy. Maybe I'm just not getting it.

 

Israel is still secular nation and people, but at the second coming, they will be spiritual reborn when they see Jesus Christ!

 

Paul stated that God has not forgotten nor cast away Israel forever, so there was no "judgement" unto her by God AD 70!

 

I truly wish I could believe that. Then again, maybe us Preterists will be very pleasantly surprised at what happens when Christ returns.

 

Paul also said that those who are in Christ are the "Israel of God". Judgment came upon the apostate Jews. (No, I don't believe in "Replacement Theology".)

 

Jesus called the people who were not alive when Zechariah was killed the generation that killed him. Not sure why that needs explaining.

 

Not that I doubt that you see this, as you are a obviously a true Man of God. However, I don't see Him doing that at all, Brother. I see Jesus saying that the Pharisees that He was talking to were just as guilty as the ones who killed Zechariah and the other OT prophets.