Featured He treated Christ to be sin

And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. John 17:5
I and my Father are one. John 10:30

How did the immutable God come to find himself without glory, which he had before the world was?
Was Jesus of Nazareth as a dead human soul, unclean, according to the Word of God? Did the two men that buried him have to be declared clean? How did the immutable God, die, for our sins? Maybe by being made, sin?

Was the human soul Jesus of Nazareth dead for three days and three nights?

I wonder what declared the human soul Jesus of Nazareth clean? Maybe, I'm not for sure, but maybe, Acts 2:31 Romans 1:4 Col. 1:18, 1 Peter 3:18 Rev 1:5.

Jesus of Nazareth the only human soul who ever lived to date, resurrected from the dead ones, to die no more.

If the only one to date was not resurrected from the dead; Where would our sins be?

Looks to me like the immutable God Jesus, would still be dead, our sins would still be upon us, there would be no faith for there would have been no washing of regeneration and we would be without hope?

 

What did, the Christ, sacrifice for sin? Our sins? Sacrifice, just what is a sacrifice?

 

God is life. Jesus is God. Jesus died. Ergo, we know that the immutable attributes of God were suspended in Christ at some literal point.

Gal 4:4
But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,

Psa 8:4-5 NASB 4 What is man that You take thought of him, And the son of man that You care for him? 5 Yet You have made him a little lower than God, And You crown him with glory and majesty!

Heb 2:7
“YOU HAVE MADE HIM FOR A LITTLE WHILE LOWER THAN THE ANGELS;
YOU HAVE CROWNED HIM WITH GLORY AND HONOR,
AND HAVE APPOINTED HIM OVER THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

Gal 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE”—

Co 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Num 21:8
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a standard; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, he will live.”​

Jesus was cursed, made to be sin, made lower than the angels for a little while. Notice the glory in Heb 2 and Psalm 8 were GIVEN to him... they were not his own.

Jas 1:12
Blessed is a man who perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.​

Heb 13:20¶
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,​

God raised Jesus from the dead... Jesus did not raise himself from the dead. If Jesus were raised from the dead of his own accord or on his own power, we could say that he retained his righteousness through dead. But he gave up his righteousness - his life - in order that he might demonstrate the covenant of faith as effective. He waited for God to raise him from the dead, not because of his own righteousness (the righteousness of his works) but based on the righteousness of faith.

Gal 3:13-16 NASB
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is [only] a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as [referring] to many, but [rather] to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ.​

So Jesus didn't use his own righteousness to resurrect himself from the dead... he waited on God to resurrect him "Through the blood of the everlasting covenant" that He made with Abraham.

We saw Moses raise a standard with a firey serpent (representing sin) and all who looked at it were healed or saved. This is a type and shadow for Christ. Christ bore in himself all of our sin on the cross. He became our sin or was clothed in our sin. At a literal point, God has to see Jesus and see sin... that's the nature of atonement. At some literal point God has to see us and see righteousness... that's the nature of a redemptive exchange.

I would ask, what is the intention of denying the plain text of scripture? Why hold to the false notion that our sin was not credited to Christ? Would it make Jesus die any less on the cross? Is it because of your own pride? It does no damage to the sovereignty or holiness of God for Jesus to be credited with our sin and die for our sin, but it makes all the difference in the world as to our justification through the righteousness of Christ if our sin wasn't paid for on the cross.

Just as the yearly sacrifice in Israel would have no affect on the sin of the people if their sin was not transferred to the sacrifice itself or scapegoat, so too do you render Jesus' sacrifice of no effect on us if our sin is was not credited to Christ before his death (and resurrection). If Jesus kept his righteousness and used it to justify himself, then it could never be given to us or credited to us... it would be unavailable for us. But Jesus chose to give up his righteousness and life in exchange for our sin and put his resurrection in the hands of the Father knowing full well that the covenant God made with Abraham would be effective at raising him from the dead.

 

And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all things -- himself -- first, Col 1:18
and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood, Rev 1:5
for if dead persons do not rise, neither hath Christ risen, and if Christ hath not risen, vain is your faith, ye are yet in your sins; then, also, those having fallen asleep in Christ did perish; 1 Cor 15:17-19

My point is, Without, Jesus Christ 100% God, not been made alive out of being dead for three days, there would be no washing away of sins in his blood.

Paul, an apostle -- not from men, nor through man, but through Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who did raise him out of the dead -- Gal 1:1
and if the Spirit of Him who did raise up Jesus out of the dead doth dwell in you, He who did raise up the Christ out of the dead shall quicken also your dying bodies, through His Spirit dwelling in you. Rom 8:11
because also Christ once for sin did suffer -- righteous for unrighteous -- that he might lead us to God, having been put to death indeed, in the flesh, and having been made alive in the spirit, 1 Peter 3:18
'This Jesus did God raise up, of which we are all witnesses; at the right hand then of God having been exalted -- also the promise of the Holy Spirit having received from the Father -- he was shedding forth this, which now ye see and hear; Acts 2:32,33

The Father and the Son are, One, they are also different. Also, The Spirit comes from, The Father through, The Son. See V 33 Acts 2. Because of the obedient death and the being born out of the dead ones.

'But I tell you the truth; it is better for you that I go away, for if I may not go away, the Comforter will not come unto you, and if I go on, I will send Him unto you; John 16:7

 

Paul stated that he was made sin, he who knew no sin, right?

 

Problem Van is that the Greek text the way it is constructed by Paul will not support us changing it the way your theology demands it to be!

 

Not when you define what that means as per the Apostle Paul!

 

No, for there was a double Imputation being transaction between the Father , Jesus and we who are the redeemed upon that Cross!

 

You’re wrong about the interpretation of the Greek. But even if you were right, it’s not just the Greek... the Hebrew says it as well.

Isaiah 53:6 (NASB) All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all To fall on Him.

You are in the unenviable position of explaining how 2 passages in two different languages which are in complete harmony and agreement both don’t mean what they plainly say for 2 different reasons to fit your man-made narrative. The whole point of Christ’s holiness is to qualify as a spotless, sinless sacrifice. Once he’s qualified & the sacrifice ritual has commenced, what does it matter if he has the sin of the world transferred to him... what does it matter if he “becomes sin” or if the Father causes the iniquity of the world to fall on him? That’s part of the ritual for which he had already qualified.

Just like a lamb is without spot or wrinkle when it was brought to the priest, and the act of nipping the neck to drain the blood and the act of burning it on the altar didn’t disqualify the “holy” status of the offering. The altar itself is holy as is the judgment. Just because the person bringing the sacrifice had their sin transferred to the sacrifice, didn’t disqualify the sacrifice... it was the whole, holy purpose of the sacrifice to have sin transferred to it so it could die in the place of the one bringing the sacrifice.

Why do you hold to the notion that Jesus kept his own righteousness and holiness. Why does that matter to you so much that you are willing to deny the clear, plain text of scripture to hold onto it?

 

You haven’t answered the question as to why you won’t accept that Christ became sin. What possible damage could it do for Christ to do exactly what he came to do.

I can see how it damages the credibility of scripture & eliminates the possibility that we are made righteous if Christ doesn’t give up his life (his righteousness is synonymous with his life)... so you are going to have to do a lot more than merely assert your position... you have to tell us why it’s important for Christ to keep his own life, and how Christ’s righteousness becomes applied to us if he doesn’t give it up.

If Christ isn’t made sin... if he holds onto his life... if he retains his own righteousness & holiness, then we also retain our sin and have not been cleansed or covered by righteousness. If Christ doesn’t actually lose his righteousness, then we also don’t lose our sin.

For us to be given righteousness, righteousness must be available.

Galatians 3:21 (NASB) Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law.

We see here the notion that righteousness and life are synonymous. Furthermore, we know the wages of sin is death. Romans 5:12 says that death came by sin... therefore it stands to reason that life comes through righteousness.

Galatians 3:13-14 (NASB) 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Jesus was cursed! He died on a tree!

Deuteronomy 21:23 (NASB)
his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), so that you do not defile your land which the LORD your God gives you as an inheritance.

Jesus was cursed by God because he was hanged on a tree.... according to The Law, Jesus became a curse! He became sin! He became the curse of sin & death for us.

Furthermore, it defiled the land because the sun went dark at his death.

2 Corinthians 5:21 (NASB)
He made Him who knew no sin [to be] sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

If Jesus didn’t become sin, then we haven’t become the righteousness of God in Him. It destroys the possibility of the gospel if Jesus doesn’t become sin. That’s WHY it’s important that Jesus becomes sin, gives up his rightousness, gives up his life.

Philippians 2:5-9 (NASB) 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name,

Notice Christ didn’t exalt himself (which would have been His right if He relied on His own righteousness)... He let God exalt Him with a righteousness & glory that was given to Him. Note even Philippians recognizes the significance of dying on a cross (and the curse it brings).

If Christ didn’t give up His righteousness there would be none available for us to inherit through our faith... or do you think God just makes up righteousness out of thin air to give to us? If that were legal, then there would literally be no reason for Christ to come, live a sinless life or die for us.
If God could just create righteousness & give it to whomever He wanted, there is no need for Christ to die!! Where do you think the righteousness we use comes from??

Here is how salvation works, Van. Jesus came, lived a sinless life & was righteous. He gives up his righteousness in exchange for our sin. Jesus’ righteousness goes to Abraham, and those with the same faith in the gospel of Jesus Christ that Abraham had are considered the children of Abraham & are heirs of Christ’s righteousness which God promises to Abraham in an everlasting covenant.

Jesus himself is raised from the dead through this covenant of faith... not by his own power.

Hebrews 13:20 (NASB)
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [even] Jesus our Lord,

Jesus inherited back to himself righteousness through the covenant of faith... this shows that A) Christ gave up His righteousness to be available to the covenant and B) the covenant of faith is validated as functioning by evidence that it raised Christ from the dead.

Galatians 3:13-18 (NASB) 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE"-- 14 in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. 15 Brethren, I speak in terms of human relations: even though it is only a man's covenant, yet when it has been ratified, no one sets it aside or adds conditions to it. 16 Now the promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. He does not say, "And to seeds," as referring to many, but rather to one, "And to your seed," that is, Christ. 17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise.

Genesis 15:5-6 (NASB) 5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.
Genesis 17:4-7 (NASB) 4 "As for Me, behold, My covenant is with you, And you will be the father of a multitude of nations. 5 "No longer shall your name be called Abram, But your name shall be Abraham; For I have made you the father of a multitude of nations. 6 "I will make you exceedingly fruitful, and I will make nations of you, and kings will come forth from you. 7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

The everlasting covenant talked about in Hebrews 13:20 - the covenant that raised Christ from the dead - was made with Abraham in Gen 15-17 and is mentioned in Genesis 17:7 as an inheritance covenant to be inherited by the descendants from many nations... those who are children by having the same faith in the gospel of Christ Abraham had.

If Christ doesn’t give up His righteousness... if he keeps it as your position requires... then there is no righteousness available for heirs of the everlasting covenant to inherit... and none of us are saved.

Romans 4:9-17 (NASB) 9 Is this blessing then on the circumcised, or on the uncircumcised also? For we say, "FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 10 How then was it credited? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised; 11 and he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while uncircumcised, so that he might be the father of all who believe without being circumcised, that righteousness might be credited to them, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also follow in the steps of the faith of our father Abraham which he had while uncircumcised. 13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would be heir of the world was not through the Law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the Law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise is nullified; 15 for the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, there also is no violation. 16 For this reason it is by faith, in order that it may be in accordance with grace, so that the promise will be guaranteed to all the descendants, not only to those who are of the Law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all, 17 (as it is written, "A FATHER OF MANY NATIONS HAVE I MADE YOU") in the presence of Him whom he believed, even God, who gives life to the dead and calls into being that which does not exist.

 

The same thought is stated here,

There is, then, now no condemnation to those in Christ Jesus, who walk not according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit; for the law of the Spirit of the life in Christ Jesus did set me free from the law of the sin and of the death; for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin in the flesh, that the righteousness of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. Rom 8:1-4 YLT

As is stated in 2 Cor 5:16-21

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

 

The difference is insufficient enough to mean that Christ remained holy. Furthermore that you did nothing to deal with the Hebrew passages which are in harmony with the Greek in confirming that Christ lost his holiness and “became sin” or “had the iniquity of all laid upon him.”

You have asserted this without a shred of Biblical support. First, that’s not how sacrifices work... second, that’s opposite to what scripture says happened with Christ. To convince us of your heretical position, you actually have to show it from scripture, which you haven’t done even once. I say heretical because your assertion does damage the gospel.

Of course you have made this up. It doesn’t say this in scripture. This is your own pride talking.

Since scripture say we are made righteous in Christ & it says in both Hebrew & Greek that He became sin SO THAT we might become righteous, your assertion to the contrary is refuted.

This is the claim YOU are making - that Christ held onto his holiness. Since his life & his righteousness are synonymous and we know he lost his life, it is reasonable to acknowledge that his death means he lost his righteousness or his holiness.

God accepted his sacrifice because it included his life, righteousness, and holiness. If Jesus withheld any of these God wouldn’t have accepted his sacrifice, so the fact that God did accept it demonstrates that Christ’s spirit also became sin in the great redemptive exchange.

If Christ’s spirit doesn’t become sinful, then our spirit doesn’t become righteous. For this is the nature of the exchange - the second half of the verse says “that we might become the righteousness of God in him.” So if it is Christ’s body only which is sacrificed, then it is our body only which is redeemed. But if Christ’s sacrifice includes his spirit, then so too does the redemption.

Romans 5:17 (NASB) For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

Romans 6:23 (NASB)
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 3:9 (NASB)
and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from [the] Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which [comes] from God on the basis of faith,

Once again, your position directly contradicts scripture. Righteousness is indeed the gift we are given.

That is the nature of redemption. It is an exchange... a transaction... a purchase.

1 Corinthians 6:20 (NASB) For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

If you are correct, that Christ didn’t give up His righteousness (his holiness), that he held onto it, then only our bodies would be saved & not our spirit. But that’s the opposite of what scripture says.

Romans 8:10 (NASB) If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness.

 

This says nothing about Christ keeping or losing his holiness. The term “your holy one” is a way of identifying it as Jesus. It also says “you have made known to me the way of life” and also it says “my flesh will live in hope.” If we take your interpretation, then it would mean Jesus never died. So clearly it isn’t talking about “immutable attributes “ as you assume.

Acts 2:31-32 (NASB) 31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY. 32 "This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.

Jesus wasn’t abandoned to hades, though he was put there at his death. His body didn’t decay because he was only dead 3 days. This says nothing about Christ keeping his own righteousness or whether he was filled with the sin of the world.

Clearly, it doesn’t say what you claim. Therefore, you still haven’t proven your claim.

You asserted these unconvincingly. But we showed you many reasons why you were wrong.

Jesus was Holy prior to his death. But like all guilt offerings, he had the sin of the ones he was cleansing transferred to him before his death. Of course he was made righteous through the everlasting covenant (not his own righteousness), so he would be Holy after being resurrected.

Van cannot account for how or where the righteousness that raised Christ from the dead came from or how or where the righteousness credited to us comes from. He is completely void of what mechanism or legal precedent allows us to be made righteous. He can’t explain how physical death (without sacrifice your life or righteousness or holiness) somehow translates to spiritual life being propitiate to us. To him it’s a magical, mystical process without logic, reason, or mechanism. Of course if God could just invent life, righteousness, or holiness out of thin air and legally apply that to us, then Christ wouldn’t have needed to die or sacrifice his life, righteousness, or holiness to be given to us.

I’ve already pointed you to that verse:

Hebrews 13:20 (NASB)
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, [even] Jesus our Lord,

Jesus was raised from the dead through the covenant of faith - the same as we are. He didn’t raise himself, but God raised him through man’s covenant... the covenant God made with Abraham.

Hebrews 9:12 (NASB) and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.

Even Jesus himself obtained redemption. He didn’t use his own holiness, but was resurrected through the redemptive process.

Hebrews 9:14 (NASB) how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Here we see Christ’s sacrifice was in spirit as well as flesh.